Does k2 and d3 supplement really increase the need for calcium?

[mrsuomi]

Is there any studies of biochemistry showing that if we take high doses of vitamin d3 and our calcium needs increase?

Some people say calcium needs decrease with higher k2 intake

 

[SnickeD]

Is there any studies of biochemistry showing that if we take high doses of vitamin d3 and our calcium needs increase?

Some people say calcium needs decrease with higher k2 intake

Good question. I also wonder of there is any other way to effect PTH than having a high calcium to phosphate ratio. If K2 or d3 or something downregulated pth. Wouldn't that be a reason to think it's somehow making us require less dietary calcium.. i don't like the taste of egg shells anyway. And some studies might show calcium supplements increasing risk for heart attacks, tho I haven't looked into it enough to have a legit opinion on it.

 

[mrsuomi]

@haidut

 

[Mossy]

I don't have a study, but I do have an interesting comment that I've made note of from a few years back:

If you take a bunch of vitamin K2 it's going to drop blood levels of calcium as it pushes it into the bones. If you're not getting enough calcium (plus/or enough Vit D to enhance calcium absorption) to supply what Vitamin K2 is putting away then your body will sense calcium is too low and release PTH and prolactin to try to bring calcium levels up which will kill muscle tone, mood, and erections. Big dose K2 without adequate calcium is like pressing the gas while holding the brake at the same time. It won't be a good outcome. Note that it may be hard to really know what adequate calcium intake is for a huge amount of K2 since it hasn't had a lot of study except in old people where they need to pull calcium out of arteries.

 

[GTW]

A, D, K, and magnesium are most interdependent.

 

[Elie]

Good question. I haven't looked for research on this as of yet.
They way I understand it, I'd expect the opposite.
Vit D increases calcium absorption and vit K help utilize it efficiently in some of its functions.
...but I may be wrong. I'd be interested to see research that examined this question.

 

[Veritas IV]

I discovered this site: https://www.k-vitamins.com/index.php?page=research-view-all

From this post: 50, lifelong focus on exercise and food, just had a heart attack

Patrick (Pat) Theut reversing his Atherosclerosis with the help of Vitamin K. There's more resources elsewhere on his website.

 

[Mauritio]

I don't have a study, but I do have an interesting comment that I've made note of from a few years back:

Anecdotally I can say that when I take vitamin K orally I feel my teeth hurting after that every time. I thought it wasnt the vitamin K directly but now I tend to think it is. The teeth sensitivity doesnt occur when I put the K in a gelatin capsule.
So maybe it is pulling the calcium from the teeth ,which would'nt be good!

 

[Dapose]

Hi. This is from Chris Masterjohn’s article. He is a very high quality source of info on specifics of vitamins and minerals. Not that this directly answers the calcium question, but he paints a clearer picture that high does K2 is very safe, meaning it isn’t known to cause calcium deficiency or others…

Hypothetical Side Effects of High Doses​

Long-term use of 45 mg per day of MK-4 has not revealed any established toxicity syndrome or risk of serious side effects. This is 225 times the dose I recommend. Nevertheless, the biochemistry of vitamin K suggests that unnecessarily high doses could rob the body of antioxidants or interfere with blood sugar regulation, insulin sensitivity, and hormonal health. The real question, though, is at what dose these potential side effects kick in. Since 45 mg per day has not shown any clear syndrome of toxicity and the dose I recommend is more than 200 times lower than this, I think we have a very large window of safety to work within. The potential for hypothetical side effects, however, should lead us to avoid supplementing with doses that are much larger than those that provide clear benefits.

Her is the full article. https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/blog/2016/12/09/the-ultimate-vitamin-k2-resource/

 

[Dapose]

Phosphorus and calcium Chris Masterjohn

I am trying to find how to eat all my micros and vitamins with no supplement, and searching that I found an interview where it is said that phosporus from meat did not affect negatively to calcium an pth hormone. At 256: Chris Masterjohn on Decoding What Your Body Really Needs "Parathyroid...

raypeatforum.com

 

[pondering]

Is there any studies of biochemistry showing that if we take high doses of vitamin d3 and our calcium needs increase?

Some people say calcium needs decrease with higher k2 intake

I’m no expert, but I’ve mainly read the opposite from people’s anecdotal experiences, that calcium needs can increase with k2. The dose likely matters too

I asked a similar question awhile back
Any issues supplementing K2 without much calcium in the diet

from The Vitamin D Solution
by Michael F. Holick (the guy who helped set the vitamin D recommendations some labs use I believe)

“We all need calcium to survive, just as we need water. But there's a certain balance to be struck, a so called homeostasis…. Too little calcium in your blood (a condition called hypocalcemia), soft tissue cells – especially nerves and muscles, which rely on calcium to operate — become dysfunctional. Your entire neuromuscular system will become abnormally excitable, and impulses may be triggered spontaneously. This, in effect, sends your body into convulsions as muscles, including those of the respiratory system, contract uncontrollably. In this situation, a person can die from failure to breathe. The heart, which also depends on calcium to beat properly, can lose its rhythm, with fatal consequences. Conversely, if there is too much calcium in the blood (a condition called hypercalcemia), organs calcify and eventually cease to work…

So you can see how important it is to maintain steady and healthy levels of calcium in the body. You can also see how vitamin D promotes healthy bones by indirectly maintaining adequate serum calcium and phosphorus for bone mineralization to occur. Vitamin D controls the level of calcium in the blood. If there is not enough calcium in the diet, then it will be drawn from the bone. High levels of vitamin D (from the diet or from sunlight) will actually demineralize bone if sufficient calcium is not present.”
- Pg 201

 

[pondering]

Good question. I also wonder of there is any other way to effect PTH than having a high calcium to phosphate ratio. If K2 or d3 or something downregulated pth. Wouldn't that be a reason to think it's somehow making us require less dietary calcium.. i don't like the taste of egg shells anyway. And some studies might show calcium supplements increasing risk for heart attacks, tho I haven't looked into it enough to have a legit opinion on it.

I found this podcast episode from Chris Masterjohn (also mentioned above) interesting regarding your question (if you haven’t heard it already). He goes into detail regarding calcium, phosphorus, vitamin D, PTH and their interplay. If I understood his explanation correctly, a healthy level of vitamin D could lower PTH, by ensuring adequate calcium absorption, thereby negating the need for PTH to kick in.

Balancing Calcium and Phosphorus in the Diet and the Importance of Measuring Parathyroid Hormone

 

[GTW]

I’m no expert, but I’ve mainly read the opposite from people’s anecdotal experiences, that calcium needs can increase with k2. The dose likely matters too

I asked a similar question awhile back
Any issues supplementing K2 without much calcium in the diet

from The Vitamin D Solution
by Michael F. Holick (the guy who helped set the vitamin D recommendations some labs use I believe)

“We all need calcium to survive, just as we need water. But there's a certain balance to be struck, a so called homeostasis…. Too little calcium in your blood (a condition called hypocalcemia), soft tissue cells – especially nerves and muscles, which rely on calcium to operate — become dysfunctional. Your entire neuromuscular system will become abnormally excitable, and impulses may be triggered spontaneously. This, in effect, sends your body into convulsions as muscles, including those of the respiratory system, contract uncontrollably. In this situation, a person can die from failure to breathe. The heart, which also depends on calcium to beat properly, can lose its rhythm, with fatal consequences. Conversely, if there is too much calcium in the blood (a condition called hypercalcemia), organs calcify and eventually cease to work…

So you can see how important it is to maintain steady and healthy levels of calcium in the body. You can also see how vitamin D promotes healthy bones by indirectly maintaining adequate serum calcium and phosphorus for bone mineralization to occur. Vitamin D controls the level of calcium in the blood. If there is not enough calcium in the diet, then it will be drawn from the bone. High levels of vitamin D (from the diet or from sunlight) will actually demineralize bone if sufficient calcium is not present.”
- Pg 201

This does not address the roles of Vit A, Vit K in various distinct forms, and Mg.

 

[GTW]

It has been found that Mg supplement will lower Vit D blood level when above 40 and raise when below 30. What does it mean re the "need" for Vitamin D?

Anecdotally I can say that when I take vitamin K orally I feel my teeth hurting after that every time. I thought it wasnt the vitamin K directly but now I tend to think it is. The teeth sensitivity doesnt occur when I put the K in a gelatin capsule.
So maybe it is pulling the calcium from the teeth ,which would'nt be good!

Vitamin K, which?

 

[pondering]

This does not address the roles of Vit A, Vit K in various distinct forms, and Mg.

Those are relevant and important too no doubt. Perhaps you care to elaborate? I’m no expert…

 

[GTW]

There are interrelationships within particular ranges of A, D, K, K2, Mg status.
>For example, it was shown in the amoeba almost a century ago (93) that magnesium prevents calcium entry into the cell when calcium is present in excess. In addition, magnesium prevents calcium exit during calcium-deficient conditions and “in the presence of magnesium, less calcium is required for optimum movement” (93) in these one-celled animals. These basic cellular calcium-magnesium interactions are at work in human cells (94, 95), in which the imbalance of these 2 essential minerals can give rise to cellular phenotypes manifesting the physiologic symptoms of modern chronic diseases (96)Essential Nutrient Interactions: Does Low or Suboptimal Magnesium Status Interact with Vitamin D and/or Calcium Status?

 

[GTW]

Calcium, vitamin D, vitamin K2, and magnesium supplementation and skeletal health - PubMed

Supplementation with calcium (Ca) and/or vitamin D (vitD) is key to the management of osteoporosis. Other supplements like vitamin K2 (VitK2) and magnesium (Mg) could contribute to the maintenance of skeletal health. This narrative review summarizes the most recent data on Ca, vitD, vitK2 and Mg...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Mossy]

Anecdotally I can say that when I take vitamin K orally I feel my teeth hurting after that every time.

Beyond a shadow of a doubt, this happens to me as well when I take K2 (mk4). Supplementing calcium also causes me trouble: constipation, as well as feeling off; but I did take it a few times to see if it would prevent the teeth from hurting, and if remember accurately it either reduced it considerably or eliminated it. But, I"ll have to test it again. I feel so bad after taking k2, like for 10-12 days after, that I'm hesitant to take it again.

 

[GTW]

A person doesn't burn calcium like calories. A healthy adult is not building up bones or trying to increase calcium. The calcium removed from bones by osteoclast activity is equally useful for osteoblast, so will readily be recycled.
And, there are better cations to neutralize acids. Potassium notably. Magnesium also plays a role. Magnesium deficiency is common.

 

[Elie]

A person doesn't burn calcium like calories. A healthy adult is not building up bones or trying to increase calcium. The calcium removed from bones by osteoclast activity is equally useful for osteoblast, so will readily be recycled.
And, there are better cations to neutralize acids. Potassium notably. Magnesium also plays a role. Magnesium deficiency is common.

Good point.
Wasn't until i heard Georgi's latest interview that "quarter dropped" and I realized vitamin K, other quinones and good oxidizing agents are acids (hence the teeth issues with vitamin K when not swallowed?)