Circadian Clock Obeys Metabolism/sugar, Not Light/genes

[Zachs]

post 114549

post 114125

post 114114

post 114104 Interesting - just last night I wound up staying up about 2 hours later than usual, and also took some thyroid hormone about 2 hours later than usual, not thinking about it, just thinking that I usually take it before bed. I couldn't fall asleep for like an hour and a half - just lied there, which usually never happens. I got up and ate a bunch and then feel asleep at around 5:30 AM.

Should we consistently take thyroid at the same time every day? And does this mean I shouldn't have gotten up and eaten something?

I think if you take thyroid you should eat as well since you don't want to cause a shortage of fuel situation and raise stress hormones. Taking thyroid and eating at night should protect you from the stresses of darkness. Speaking of which, did people on the forum know that the "modern" sleeping habits we have are relatively recent and are mostly due to the mass effects of electricity and lighting? Up until the early 1900, and especially in rural areas, people slept in bi-phasic pattern. They would go to back at dusk, wake up around 2am, eat, maybe fool around a little bit, and then go back to bed to wake up at dawn. Sleeping was viewed as something that could not be sustained for 8-9 hours on a single meal before bed. Then again, life was a lot more brutal back then and food was probably not as calorie dense for most people so they had to wake up and refeed to "survive" the night. Anyways, just a thought.

Paleo advocates used this argument to justify the adrenalin surges people would be getting from the low carb, meat heavy diets. Imo that theory only comes from a few writing during the Victorian Era I believe and is in no way proven that that should be an optimal sleeping pattern. Most likely that would be caused by stress and/or the need to replenish fire if in a tribal setting. Optimally one should be able to store enough glucose to sleep deep for a good 8 hours at least. If your getting up to pee and feel awake around 2-4, that is a bad sign.

I don't think it is an optimal sleeping pattern, rather it is what people did to limit the damage of long nights combined with low temperatures, poor food availability and stress in general. I guess it is better to wake up and refeed than try to sleep through the stress hungry and in an adrenaline state.

Oh I agree. My first defense with waking up is sugar, salt and red light right in my eyes.

 

[Gl;itch.e]

This explains my trouble sleeping. I usually work out at 6-7pm, and finish by 8. I take my lithium and quetiapine immediately so as to oppose glutamate and calm my brain before bed, except my sleep is still hit and miss. I try to restrict carbs at this time because the carb restriction in a glycogen deprived state increases MPS due to enhanced insulin sensitivity. Last night, I got up THREE times and ate a bit of food so I could get to sleep. It wasn't until I got frustrated and binged on rice crackers and ice cream that I felt a powerful sleepiness wash over me.

This makes no sense. If you are trying to build muscle all the insulin sensitivity in the world isn't going to help if you aren't taking in the energy to actually build anything.

The workout in itself should be enough to make your muscle cells hypersensitive and receptive to taking up glucose. You don't need to further "trick" them into responding.

Eat your damned carbs, sleep and recover brother!

 

[paymanz]

post 114595 Oh I agree. My first defense with waking up is sugar, salt and red light right in my eyes.

why on eyes?

 

[Hitoshi]

there are different entrainable oscillators, light based and food based

breakdown here:
http://caloriesproper.com/entraining-ce ... n-rhythms/

“Desynchronization between the central and peripheral clocks by, for instance, altered timing of food intake, can lead to uncoupling of peripheral clocks from the central pacemaker and is, in humans, related to the development of metabolic disorders, including obesity and type 2 diabetes. ” (Oosterman et al., 2014).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19916831
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24179293

http://caloriesproper.com/circadian-phase-role-of-diet/

nutrient partitioning/afternoon "diabetes"

http://caloriesproper.com/afternoon-dia ... tioning-2/

 

[Zachs]

post 114622

post 114595 Oh I agree. My first defense with waking up is sugar, salt and red light right in my eyes.

why on eyes?

I don't know, it feels really good.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Most people today have low co2 and many as a result have sleep apnea but they don't wake up. I find that the higher co2 levels require less sleep.

I tend to nap after dinner. I wonder if i will continue doing so after I've raised my metabolism.

 

[Parsifal]

So what happens for a person that is eating small meals very frequently until going to bed?

 

[livrepensador]

Most people today have low co2 and many as a result have sleep apnea but they don't wake up. I find that the higher co2 levels require less sleep.

I tend to nap after dinner. I wonder if i will continue doing so after I've raised my metabolism.

Hey ecstatichamster, what´s up?
I have a question about co2: i said that low co2 will result in sleep apnea, so if we improve co2 levels it would not happen: drinkin baking soda before sleep would be a good sleep aid?

 

[Blossom]

post 114994

Most people today have low co2 and many as a result have sleep apnea but they don't wake up. I find that the higher co2 levels require less sleep.

I tend to nap after dinner. I wonder if i will continue doing so after I've raised my metabolism.

Hey ecstatichamster, what´s up?
I have a question about co2: i said that low co2 will result in sleep apnea, so if we improve co2 levels it would not happen: drinkin baking soda before sleep would be a good sleep aid?

This is my overly simplistic version of what I think can happen in sleep apnea: Fact-CO2 controls our respiratory drive. Speculation- If CO2 is low while sleeping and a person stops breathing it will begin to rise. This up and down/ back and forth all night long effects both CO2 and O2 levels and causes all sorts of problems. One minute there is too much and the next there is too little according to our brains monitoring of the blood gasses. If CO2 is optimized via strong metabolism and possibly other means then the body maintains a more consistent adequate level and that also ensures appropriate oxygenation. Perhaps this is why some people are able to overcome sleep apnea by optimizing CO2? Of course there are special individual situations where this might not apply. For example I have met people with high CO2 from ventilation defects and not optimal metabolism that also had sleep apnea so context is important.
I do not have any studies for this, it is just knowledge from practical experience and influenced by Peat.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I believe sleep apnea is the body's defense against hyperventilation. The body stops breathing in order to build up dangerously low carbon dioxide levels. What's the levels are a bit high, the body starts to breathe again. Obviously it has to brief, but the problem is hyperventilation results and life-threatening low carbon dioxide levels that have to be resolved immediately during sleep. I believe sleep apnea is the body's defense against hyperventilation. The body stops breathing in order to build up dangerously low carbon dioxide levels. What's the levels are a bit high, the body starts to breathe again. Obviously it has to breeze, but the problem is hyperventilation results and life-threatening low carbon dioxide levels that have to be resolved immediately during sleep.

Sodium bicarbonate may help a bit. Taping the mouth helps a lot more by preventing mouth breathing during sleep. Sitting up while sleeping helps a tremendous amount rather than lying down. I advise people with sleep apnea to sleep in a recliner rather than a bed.

I believe that hire curb and specifically sugar levels with Peating may help increase the carbon dioxide that the cells are creating through respiration. There are many things supportive of hire carbon dioxide levels, and I think getting the body into a sugar burning mode is one of those things.

 

[Tenacity]

How would this information be used to help manage delayed phase sleep disorder?

I've had this issue for a long time. Rarely do I sleep before midnight, and I can only recall a handful of periods in my life where I could sleep before 11:30PM. Feelings of tiredness only seem to come at about 1AM, if that. Having to get up early for my job leaves me pretty tired throughout the day, yet even when I do not nap I still am not tired enough to sleep early. I can have five and a half hours sleep and still not be tired enough. I seem to perk up towards the evening, despite being tired during the day. So the cycle of daytime tiredness and evening alertness continues.

Interestingly, my daytime fatigue seems to have gotten better recently after making certain lifestyle switches (i.e less sleep is required to feel somewhat normal, although consecutive nights of low sleep do sting). Sleeping at a socially acceptable time is still my greatest health issue.

Any ideas? As far as I understand it I just need to eat a day's worth of food long before I intend to sleep, is that correct? So eating my final meal at, say, 7PM would allow me to sleep at the desired 10:30/11PM timeslot?

 

[lollipop]

How would this information be used to help manage delayed phase sleep disorder?

I've had this issue for a long time. Rarely do I sleep before midnight, and I can only recall a handful of periods in my life where I could sleep before 11:30PM. Feelings of tiredness only seem to come at about 1AM, if that. Having to get up early for my job leaves me pretty tired throughout the day, yet even when I do not nap I still am not tired enough to sleep early. I can have five and a half hours sleep and still not be tired enough. I seem to perk up towards the evening, despite being tired during the day. So the cycle of daytime tiredness and evening alertness continues.

Interestingly, my daytime fatigue seems to have gotten better recently after making certain lifestyle switches (i.e less sleep is required to feel somewhat normal, although consecutive nights of low sleep do sting). Sleeping at a socially acceptable time is still my greatest health issue.

Any ideas? As far as I understand it I just need to eat a day's worth of food long before I intend to sleep, is that correct? So eating my final meal at, say, 7PM would allow me to sleep at the desired 10:30/11PM timeslot?

I wonder if simply retraining yourself might work? I did it for my husband. Climb in bed at 10:00pm like clockwork and in the beginning read if you can not fall asleep. You could even try some brain entrainment audios. With persistence and consistency, you will end up retraining and fall asleep early. It happened with my husband. Key was consistency over time.

 

[paymanz]

What I understand from it is that we need to eat larger meals,especially carbs early in the day , and smaller meals ,lower carbs before sleep, because eating sugar signals your system that its beginning of the day?!

 

[haidut]

What I understand from it is that we need to eat larger meals,especially carbs early in the day , and smaller meals ,lower carbs before sleep, because eating sugar signals your system that its beginning of the day?!

Yes, that's my take on it. As I posted in response to tyw in the other thread, cortisol and thyroid hormone seem to be the actual regulators. Also, eating protein increases dopamine, which is known to affect the circadian clock and this is why dopamine agonists are taken in the morning - i.e. to avoid disruption. So, protein and sugar seem to be best earlier in the day and higher fat intake at night. Peat has said the same thing - increasing fat intake at night, but his rationale is to slow digestion and blood sugar spikes and ensure the meal will last longer through the night.

 

[Jsaute21]

What are some good fat heavy dinners that some on here feel aids proper sleep?

 

[meatbag]

Yes, that's my take on it. As I posted in response to tyw in the other thread, cortisol and thyroid hormone seem to be the actual regulators. Also, eating protein increases dopamine, which is known to affect the circadian clock and this is why dopamine agonists are taken in the morning - i.e. to avoid disruption. So, protein and sugar seem to be best earlier in the day and higher fat intake at night. Peat has said the same thing - increasing fat intake at night, but his rationale is to slow digestion and blood sugar spikes and ensure the meal will last longer through the night.

I've been reading some of the posts on this blog Tyw mentioned about circadian rythym, pretty interesting stuff: Vasopressin’ me again

 

[Philomath]

Most people today have low co2 and many as a result have sleep apnea but they don't wake up. I find that the higher co2 levels require less sleep.

I tend to nap after dinner. I wonder if i will continue doing so after I've raised my metabolism.

I know this thread is old, but I thought I’d interject some research on sleep/metabolism/light & CO2 with Dr. Peats favorite animal - the Naked Mole Rat:

This is the first time that temperature has been studied in the Naked Mole-Rat with out the effects of handling and while the animal remained in its colony environment undisturbed. The rhythmicity of temperature and activity was also studied for the first time during telemetric recording. EEG had never before been recorded either.

Temperature and Activity Rhythms in the Naked Mole-Rat. This figure shows the synchronized dip in temperature and increase in activity. Measurements were averaged for a single animal every 4 hours for 6 consecutive days.

To truly determine whether the Naked Mole-Rat was poikilothermic and uninfluenced by timing cues, the animal was studied in the following conditions:

Housing Temperature Lighting
Habitat Normal 12:12*
Isolation Normal 12:12
Habitat Normal 24^
Isolation Normal 24
Isolation Low 12:12
Isolation High 12:12
*12:12 refers to 12 hours red light, 12 Hours darkness ^24 refers to 24 Hours darkness

The results were unexpected and similar in all conditions. The Naked Mole-Rat has a distinct temperature and activity rhythm that is not coupled to environmental conditions. More surprisingly, there is an inverse relationship between the two measures. When temperature is at its lowest (nadir), activity is at its highest and vice versa. No ramping can be seen in preption for this dichotomy.

The meaning behind the Naked Mole-Rat puzzle has not been revealed. However, telemetry no doubt will continue to be a driving force in the search for answers.

 

[Bogdar]

I'm a chronical circadian dysregulator, so what in practice would this study imply? You think regular well planned meals 4 times a day (at same hours) would do the trick?

And skipping a meal / eating at different hours would initiate a rythm dysregulation?

 

[AinmAnseo]

Oh I agree. My first defense with waking up is sugar, salt and red light right in my eyes.

So you wake up and turn on a red light and have sugar and salt?