Circadian Clock Obeys Metabolism/sugar, Not Light/genes

haidut

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This is an excellent study b/c it demonstrates the circadian clock, which is one of the bastions of genetics, is actually controlled by metabolism and, more importantly, by the availability of sugar as a food source. Good and predictable availability of food "stabilizes" the circadian clock as the study says. If I was a little bit smarter, I would have realized this long time ago given that a clinically tested way often used by the military by to reset the clock is to skip a meal or two when changing time zones and not pay much attention to when you sleep.
If the availability of food and function of thyroid (as attested by the levels of ATP) is indeed what controls the clock then current drugs on the market that act like melatonin "agonists" are at best a waste of money or they may end up actually disrupting the clock. I guess the main takeaway from the study is to ensure proper availability of sugar and thyroid to avoid messing up the clock. Given that dysregulations of the clock are thought to play a role in several diseases including cancer, it is now easy to see why in light of the thyroid and sugar involvement. Also, Ray's statement that darkness is a metabolic stress that can be controlled through food and thyroid now makes perfect sense.
Finally, while the study mocks the actual finding it is obvious that even a "primitive" life form can learn the schedule of feeding and anticipate food events.

http://www.cell.com/cell-reports/abstra ... %2901346-7
"... (1) Expressing a transgenic sugar transporter in cyanobacteria allows growth in the dark; (2) Glucose feeding overrides the effect of darkness on the circadian clock; (3) In complete darkness, the KaiABC clock senses rhythmic feeding; (4) Metabolism is the fundamental synchronizer for the cyanobacterial clock."

http://phys.org/news/2015-12-bacterial- ... olism.html

"...However, darkness had no effect on the clocks of altered cyanobacteria, which had access to plentiful sugar. The team discovered that ATP and ADP—two molecules that are central to metabolism and are known to modulate the Kai system—were maintained in a steady ratio during darkness, suggesting that sugar feeding was responsible for stabilizing the clock. "We found that the bacterial circadian clock responds only to metabolic activity," Rust said. "If growth and metabolism are supported, the clock doesn't seem to care whether it's light or dark." The team then tested the effects of sugar availability. They observed a regular circadian rhythm when they kept altered cyanobacteria in constant darkness, with a constant supply of sugar. However, when they removed sugar for periods of time, simulating a period of "nighttime" starvation, the bacterial circadian clocks would quickly reset. Different batches of cyanobacteria, on different feeding schedules, synchronized their clocks according to when they access to sugar. "By looking at the molecular state of their clock, we found the bacteria tracked when we were feeding them and set their internal times to that schedule. They basically "learned" when the sugar was coming," Rust said."
 
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CoolTweetPete

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Considering this was done on bacteria, I'm curious what you think the role of photosensitive receptor ganglion cells are in physiology. These are cells that are intrinsically photosensitive and according to this Wiki article, send information via retinohypothalmic tract, dictating circadian rhythm. Maybe I need to revisit Ray's article on melatonin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic ... lion_cells

Anecdotally, this does make sense. I have found skipping a meal or two (fasting) has helped me overcome jet lag very effectively in the past. Thanks for the article! :hattip
 

seano

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Similar ideas have been around for quite some time. Proven in research & practice. One group went so far as to create the "Anti-Jet-Lag Diet".

In my experience, dietary changes have the largest impact in mitigating jet lag. That's based on regular travel from the UK to Europe (1-3hr zone change), America (5-8hr change), and Asia/Australia (up to 12hr time difference, and 30 hours of travel!). My longest time at home in the past 6 months was 10 days.

A few of the tools are: timing to your destination, fasting, and timing of macronutrients (carb/protein restriction at certain times).

My tactics:
- Eat at the time of your destination. Start the the day before traveling when possible (especially for long-hauls).
- Never eat at a time which you would normally not eat. This will likely result in fasting.
- Often I fast the entire flight time even if it coincides with a meal time. Eating combined with not moving for 8+ hours just makes me feel like crap. Likely due to my impaired digestion (no gallbladder)
- Sometimes restricting carbs & calories the day or 2 before flying. Then slam them afternoon/evening at my destination to induce sleep.
 
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haidut

haidut

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CoolTweetPete said:
post 114084 Considering this was done on bacteria, I'm curious what you think the role of photosensitive receptor ganglion cells are in physiology. These are cells that are intrinsically photosensitive and according to this Wiki article, send information via retinohypothalmic tract, dictating circadian rhythm. Maybe I need to revisit Ray's article on melatonin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic ... lion_cells

Anecdotally, this does make sense. I have found skipping a meal or two (fasting) has helped me overcome jet lag very effectively in the past. Thanks for the article! :hattip

I think the primary role of those cells is to signal the brain to produce catecholamines (dopamine, epinephrine, norepinephrine) or amines (serotonin, melatonin) and these two opposing classes also regulate metabolism. The conversion of tyrosine into dopamine requires light. In the absense of light dopamine stays low and serotonin rises even at the first hint of dusk.
 
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MigFon

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The mainstream view about this subject, as far as I understand it, holds that the SNC - Suprachiasmatic Nucleus, is the internal main clock and that it is regulated by light (or absence of it), what Till Roenenberg call "Zeitgeiber" in his book Internal Time.
He also argues that every single organ system has its own clock, which in turn adjusts themselves by the main clock, the SCN, whenever any change in the dark/ligh cycles take place (such as the changes in light patterns across seasons).
Another pertinent fact, is that as human enter puberty they also become late chronotypes, that is, they can only fall asleep really late after dusk (compared to their younger years), and then, as adulthood develops, they progressivelly "regress" back to their childhood year's earlier chronotype, such that, usually by age 50, most human tend to fall asleep in a pattern close to their childhood years (although with a shorter duration).
In light of this complexity, it begs the question: Can we actually extrapolate this into humans? And if we can, how do we explain the fact that people without ganglion cells, such as some blind people, have disrupted circadian rhythms?
I'm must admit that i'm pretty much ignorant about Peat's ideas about sleep and cyrcadian rythms, although I'm really curious about them.
 

CoolTweetPete

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haidut said:
post 114093
CoolTweetPete said:
post 114084 Considering this was done on bacteria, I'm curious what you think the role of photosensitive receptor ganglion cells are in physiology. These are cells that are intrinsically photosensitive and according to this Wiki article, send information via retinohypothalmic tract, dictating circadian rhythm. Maybe I need to revisit Ray's article on melatonin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic ... lion_cells

Anecdotally, this does make sense. I have found skipping a meal or two (fasting) has helped me overcome jet lag very effectively in the past. Thanks for the article! :hattip

I think the primary role of those cells is to signal the brain to produce catecholamines (dopamine, epinephrine, norepinephrine) or amines (serotonin, melatonin) and these two opposing classes also regulate metabolism. The conversion of tyrosine into dopamine requires light. In the absense of light dopamine stays low and serotonin rises even at the first hint of dusk.

That makes perfect sense. Thanks, Haidut. :hattip
 
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FredSonoma

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Interesting - just last night I wound up staying up about 2 hours later than usual, and also took some thyroid hormone about 2 hours later than usual, not thinking about it, just thinking that I usually take it before bed. I couldn't fall asleep for like an hour and a half - just lied there, which usually never happens. I got up and ate a bunch and then feel asleep at around 5:30 AM.

Should we consistently take thyroid at the same time every day? And does this mean I shouldn't have gotten up and eaten something?
 
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haidut

haidut

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FredSonoma said:
post 114104 Interesting - just last night I wound up staying up about 2 hours later than usual, and also took some thyroid hormone about 2 hours later than usual, not thinking about it, just thinking that I usually take it before bed. I couldn't fall asleep for like an hour and a half - just lied there, which usually never happens. I got up and ate a bunch and then feel asleep at around 5:30 AM.

Should we consistently take thyroid at the same time every day? And does this mean I shouldn't have gotten up and eaten something?

I think if you take thyroid you should eat as well since you don't want to cause a shortage of fuel situation and raise stress hormones. Taking thyroid and eating at night should protect you from the stresses of darkness. Speaking of which, did people on the forum know that the "modern" sleeping habits we have are relatively recent and are mostly due to the mass effects of electricity and lighting? Up until the early 1900, and especially in rural areas, people slept in bi-phasic pattern. They would go to bed at dusk, wake up around 2am, eat, maybe fool around a little bit, and then go back to bed to wake up at dawn. Sleeping was viewed as something that could not be sustained for 8-9 hours on a single meal before bed. Then again, life was a lot more brutal back then and food was probably not as calorie dense for most people so they had to wake up and refeed to "survive" the night. Anyways, just a thought.
 
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CoolTweetPete

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Very interesting context, Haidut. I do find myself waking almost every day at around 4am hungry, but too tired to stay awake. Maybe i'll opt for a small snack and some light reading before I go back next time.
 

Zachs

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haidut said:
post 114114
FredSonoma said:
post 114104 Interesting - just last night I wound up staying up about 2 hours later than usual, and also took some thyroid hormone about 2 hours later than usual, not thinking about it, just thinking that I usually take it before bed. I couldn't fall asleep for like an hour and a half - just lied there, which usually never happens. I got up and ate a bunch and then feel asleep at around 5:30 AM.

Should we consistently take thyroid at the same time every day? And does this mean I shouldn't have gotten up and eaten something?

I think if you take thyroid you should eat as well since you don't want to cause a shortage of fuel situation and raise stress hormones. Taking thyroid and eating at night should protect you from the stresses of darkness. Speaking of which, did people on the forum know that the "modern" sleeping habits we have are relatively recent and are mostly due to the mass effects of electricity and lighting? Up until the early 1900, and especially in rural areas, people slept in bi-phasic pattern. They would go to back at dusk, wake up around 2am, eat, maybe fool around a little bit, and then go back to bed to wake up at dawn. Sleeping was viewed as something that could not be sustained for 8-9 hours on a single meal before bed. Then again, life was a lot more brutal back then and food was probably not as calorie dense for most people so they had to wake up and refeed to "survive" the night. Anyways, just a thought.

Paleo advocates used this argument to justify the adrenalin surges people would be getting from the low carb, meat heavy diets. Imo that theory only comes from a few writing during the Victorian Era I believe and is in no way proven that that should be an optimal sleeping pattern. Most likely that would be caused by stress and/or the need to replenish fire if in a tribal setting. Optimally one should be able to store enough glucose to sleep deep for a good 8 hours at least. If your getting up to pee and feel awake around 2-4, that is a bad sign.
 
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Vinero

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I usually eat a huge meal 2-3 hours before going to bed, and can easily sleep 8+ hours without waking up. Eating tons of salty carbs like Fried potatoes with cheese and eating salt to appetite is a good meal before going to bed. I can also report that drinking coffee before bed doesn't affect my ability to sleep at all. I can drink coffee in a dose that contains 200 mg of caffeine and I don't feel anything from it anymore. A year ago I could only drink a cup of coffee in the morning, if I drank coffee after dinner I couldn't fall asleep. I can drink up to 800 mg of caffeine a day now and still be warm and sleepy. My tolerance for caffeine has gone way up to the point that it doesn't effect me in the slightest. This means my metabolism is rock solid, thanks to avoiding PUFA for over 2 years now. I also can't get fat even if I try, before peating I always had to watch my caloric intake and had a layer of belly fat and a bit puffy face. Now that's totally gone. I have almost zero water retention and six pack abs without working out (except for the occasional light weights) I eat till fullness everyday and can't get fat even If I wanted to. Well I could get fat by messing up my metabolic rate by eating PUFA lol.
 

mujuro

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This explains my trouble sleeping. I usually work out at 6-7pm, and finish by 8. I take my lithium and quetiapine immediately so as to oppose glutamate and calm my brain before bed, except my sleep is still hit and miss. I try to restrict carbs at this time because the carb restriction in a glycogen deprived state increases MPS due to enhanced insulin sensitivity. Last night, I got up THREE times and ate a bit of food so I could get to sleep. It wasn't until I got frustrated and binged on rice crackers and ice cream that I felt a powerful sleepiness wash over me.

Actually, this might not be as much about CR as it is about opposing stress hormones. Sleep troubles have been a blight on my life since my late teens, so I'm going to watch my patterns more closely and see if I can identify a relationship between my food intake and my sleep.
 

Zachs

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mujuro said:
post 114165 This explains my trouble sleeping. I usually work out at 6-7pm, and finish by 8. I take my lithium and quetiapine immediately so as to oppose glutamate and calm my brain before bed, except my sleep is still hit and miss. I try to restrict carbs at this time because the carb restriction in a glycogen deprived state increases MPS due to enhanced insulin sensitivity. Last night, I got up THREE times and ate a bit of food so I could get to sleep. It wasn't until I got frustrated and binged on rice crackers and ice cream that I felt a powerful sleepiness wash over me.

Actually, this might not be as much about CR as it is about opposing stress hormones. Sleep troubles have been a blight on my life since my late teens, so I'm going to watch my patterns more closely and see if I can identify a relationship between my food intake and my sleep.

Sounds pretty simple, you are depleting your glycogen stores before bed and spiking stress hormones. They spike at night anyway so exercise and carb restricting would cause major stress at this time.
 
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DaveFoster

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Intuitively, this makes sense, as the organism's need for energy holds a far greater priority in the context of survival than any momentary environmental inconvenience (such as a lack of light).
 

Parsifal

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mujuro said:
This explains my trouble sleeping. I usually work out at 6-7pm, and finish by 8. I take my lithium and quetiapine immediately so as to oppose glutamate and calm my brain before bed, except my sleep is still hit and miss. I try to restrict carbs at this time because the carb restriction in a glycogen deprived state increases MPS due to enhanced insulin sensitivity. Last night, I got up THREE times and ate a bit of food so I could get to sleep. It wasn't until I got frustrated and binged on rice crackers and ice cream that I felt a powerful sleepiness wash over me.

Actually, this might not be as much about CR as it is about opposing stress hormones. Sleep troubles have been a blight on my life since my late teens, so I'm going to watch my patterns more closely and see if I can identify a relationship between my food intake and my sleep.
MPS?
 

jyb

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Zachs said:
post 114125
haidut said:
post 114114
FredSonoma said:
post 114104 Interesting - just last night I wound up staying up about 2 hours later than usual, and also took some thyroid hormone about 2 hours later than usual, not thinking about it, just thinking that I usually take it before bed. I couldn't fall asleep for like an hour and a half - just lied there, which usually never happens. I got up and ate a bunch and then feel asleep at around 5:30 AM.

Should we consistently take thyroid at the same time every day? And does this mean I shouldn't have gotten up and eaten something?

I think if you take thyroid you should eat as well since you don't want to cause a shortage of fuel situation and raise stress hormones. Taking thyroid and eating at night should protect you from the stresses of darkness. Speaking of which, did people on the forum know that the "modern" sleeping habits we have are relatively recent and are mostly due to the mass effects of electricity and lighting? Up until the early 1900, and especially in rural areas, people slept in bi-phasic pattern. They would go to back at dusk, wake up around 2am, eat, maybe fool around a little bit, and then go back to bed to wake up at dawn. Sleeping was viewed as something that could not be sustained for 8-9 hours on a single meal before bed. Then again, life was a lot more brutal back then and food was probably not as calorie dense for most people so they had to wake up and refeed to "survive" the night. Anyways, just a thought.

Paleo advocates used this argument to justify the adrenalin surges people would be getting from the low carb, meat heavy diets. Imo that theory only comes from a few writing during the Victorian Era I believe and is in no way proven that that should be an optimal sleeping pattern. Most likely that would be caused by stress and/or the need to replenish fire if in a tribal setting. Optimally one should be able to store enough glucose to sleep deep for a good 8 hours at least. If your getting up to pee and feel awake around 2-4, that is a bad sign.

Indeed I don't understand why bi-phasic sleep pattern would indicate good sleep or health, on the contrary. A healthy human seems to sleep in one go. Being able to sleep deep for a whole night without hunger (=stress) seems more indicative of health.
 
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haidut

haidut

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Zachs said:
post 114125
haidut said:
post 114114
FredSonoma said:
post 114104 Interesting - just last night I wound up staying up about 2 hours later than usual, and also took some thyroid hormone about 2 hours later than usual, not thinking about it, just thinking that I usually take it before bed. I couldn't fall asleep for like an hour and a half - just lied there, which usually never happens. I got up and ate a bunch and then feel asleep at around 5:30 AM.

Should we consistently take thyroid at the same time every day? And does this mean I shouldn't have gotten up and eaten something?

I think if you take thyroid you should eat as well since you don't want to cause a shortage of fuel situation and raise stress hormones. Taking thyroid and eating at night should protect you from the stresses of darkness. Speaking of which, did people on the forum know that the "modern" sleeping habits we have are relatively recent and are mostly due to the mass effects of electricity and lighting? Up until the early 1900, and especially in rural areas, people slept in bi-phasic pattern. They would go to back at dusk, wake up around 2am, eat, maybe fool around a little bit, and then go back to bed to wake up at dawn. Sleeping was viewed as something that could not be sustained for 8-9 hours on a single meal before bed. Then again, life was a lot more brutal back then and food was probably not as calorie dense for most people so they had to wake up and refeed to "survive" the night. Anyways, just a thought.

Paleo advocates used this argument to justify the adrenalin surges people would be getting from the low carb, meat heavy diets. Imo that theory only comes from a few writing during the Victorian Era I believe and is in no way proven that that should be an optimal sleeping pattern. Most likely that would be caused by stress and/or the need to replenish fire if in a tribal setting. Optimally one should be able to store enough glucose to sleep deep for a good 8 hours at least. If your getting up to pee and feel awake around 2-4, that is a bad sign.

I don't think it is an optimal sleeping pattern, rather it is what people did to limit the damage of long nights combined with low temperatures, poor food availability and stress in general. I guess it is better to wake up and refeed than try to sleep through the stress hungry and in an adrenaline state.
 
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Giraffe

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I read somewhere that thiamin deficiency disrupts circadian rhythm in mammals. I don't know if it's legit, but It makes perfect sense given its impact on liver glycogen.
 
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haidut

haidut

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Giraffe said:
post 114559 I read somewhere that thiamin deficiency disrupts circadian rhythm in mammals. I don't know if it's legit, but It makes perfect sense given its impact on liver glycogen.

Not just liver glycogen, without enough thiamine all your cells will be overproducing lactate and CO2 will be low. This hypoxic state will definitely wake most people up.
 
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