Buteyko & Ray Peat Complete Each Other

[TheSir]

The premise:

1. Cellular respiration -- the process of creating energy -- begins with oxygen and glucose
2. In order to get oxygen into the cells, you need CO2
3. CO2 is the end product of cellular respiration
4. So paradoxically: in order to begin cellular respiration, you need the end product of respiration

Two approaches:

The Ray Peat approach: encourage the body to produce more CO2 in order to guide more oxygen into cells, which increases oxygenation and thus makes the metabolism more efficient.

The Buteyko approach: train the nervous system to tolerate & retain higher amounts of CO2 in the blood in order to guide more oxygen into cells, which increases oxygenation and thus makes the metabolism more efficient.

The dilemma:

Each approach has its own drawback. On one end, increasing CO2 production without having CO2 tolerance will cause one to wastefully exhale most of the CO2 out, significantly reducing the benefits of having raised CO2 in the first place. On the other end, increasing CO2 tolerance without having good CO2 production makes CO2 retention yield less results.

The solution:

Combine Peating with breathwork so that your CO2 production and CO2 tolerance may strengthen together, negating the flaws of each other, and catapulting you into a state of ideal metabolic health.

What do you think?

 

[ecstatichamster]

I've given this a lot of thought and I'm a Buteyko coach myself.

I think that Buteyko exercises are very helpful and can be lifesaving. But they also tend to depress thyroid so you need to do thyroid support when you do Buteyko.

 

[TheSir]

I've given this a lot of thought and I'm a Buteyko coach myself.

I think that Buteyko exercises are very helpful and can be lifesaving. But they also tend to depress thyroid so you need to do thyroid support when you do Buteyko.

For what reason does improved oxygenation result in a suppressed thyroid in your experience? On intuitive level it seems a little unexpected. It appears that appetite is reduced at higher control pauses, perhaps this could play into it? Or could it be that hyperventilation keeps thyroid artificially stronger than it would really be?

 

[Beastmode]

I notice my heart rate slow down when I do consistent Buteyko work and before following Peat's work I figured it was good. I imagine this is part of the negative effects it can have on thyroid function on the basis of what Ray says.

 

[TheSir]

I notice my heart rate slow down when I do consistent Buteyko work and before following Peat's work I figured it was good. I imagine this is part of the negative effects it can have on thyroid function on the basis of what Ray says.

Consider that in this situation the main purpose of heart is to pump fluid containing oxygen around the body. When you eat glucose, your need for oxygen increases, which increases heart rate too (higher heart rate is more effective at pumping oxygen all over the body). But when oxygenation is already effective due to the circumstances created by higher CO2 tolerance, lesser amount of inhaled oxygen is needed to match the ingested glucose for cellular respiration. So after a meal your heart rate would not need to raise as high. This is how I see it, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[ecstatichamster]

For what reason does improved oxygenation result in a suppressed thyroid in your experience? On intuitive level it seems a little unexpected. It appears that appetite is reduced at higher control pauses, perhaps this could play into it? Or could it be that hyperventilation keeps thyroid artificially stronger than it would really be?

I think Buteyko encourages very low breathing volume. That is accomplished partly through suppressing thyroid function. If you take T3 you will breathe more volume, more heavily.

I really am sure that Buteyko can suppress thyroid now and I think taking T3 can help counter that during the Buteyko training.

 

[milkboi]

Did it work for you?

 

[TheSir]

I think Buteyko encourages very low breathing volume. That is accomplished partly through suppressing thyroid function. If you take T3 you will breathe more volume, more heavily.

I really am sure that Buteyko can suppress thyroid now and I think taking T3 can help counter that during the Buteyko training.

Couldn't T3 increase breathing volume simply by increasing CO2 production? Since you are increasing CO2 production without increasing CO2 tolerance, your exhaled CO2 would correlate to the amount produced in the body. Have you confirmed this suppression effect with a blood test?

For humans, atmosphere has a larger deficiency of CO2 than it has an excess of O2, meaning that your default intolerance for CO2 is proportionally greater than your supertolerance of O2. This implies that breathing volume is primarily determined by how much CO2 your body can tolerate. Hence, learning to tolerate more CO2 should only make your metabolism more efficient, because the only way to harmfully suppress your thyroid would be by reducing oxygenation (which is the opposite of what CO2 tolerance achieves).

Consider that having high TSH would increase T3 too, because that's what TSH does: it signals for production of thyroid hormones. Still in Peatian view it is proper to get TSH as low as possible. Why? Because having a great demand for T3 is not a sign of efficient metabolism. An efficient metabolism would thrive with as little as possible. So having thyroid "suppressed" relative to your starting point would not necessarily mean that your thyroid is now malfunctioning, only that it needs to put in less effort to maintain metabolic efficiency. In the end, if you take T3, this too "suppresses" the thyroid, because there is reduced need for the thyroid to do anything.

Did it work for you?

I have only raised my CP from 10 to 30, which hasn't been that interesting apart from reduced asthmatic tendencies. The reason for this post is that in Buteyko community there is this notion that a 60 second CP, which is viewed as a physiological marker of "normal health", is considered a very difficult goal that only a minority will ever achieve. Which doesn't make sense. If 60 CP represented normal health, it should be relatively easy to achieve. Which is why I am suggesting that CO2 retention is not necessarily enough if you are not also gearing your metabolism for optimal CO2 production. Likewise, in Peatian sense, increasing CO2 production without training CO2 retention is not a permanent solution, which may be why so few on this forum have achieved permanent states of good health.

 

[ecstatichamster]

My CP was raised to about 40. I don't think over 40 is easy at all. Very few ever do it. My health improved so dramatically that it was really what saved my life.

I don't think CP60 is easy to achieve. I had a coach who feels it's a mental thing -- making a breakthrough where nothing really impacts you, where you know nothing really impacts you. That may be true. I haven't achieved that or even worked on it lately.

But if you take T3, you will breathe more volume of air. It isn't just a straight "healthier people breathe less air" that Buteyko says it is.

I find that building and maintaining air hunger is the key to almost every activity. Even sex is much better. But I no longer do breathing exercises although occasionally if I have allergies I will do them*.

* No it didn't completely get rid of my allergies nor has it for anyone I've known. But it makes them much better.

 

[bluefish]

When I was doing Wim Hof type breathing exercises everyday my CP was pretty easily 45

I wasn’t even aware that was good or bad.
I just tried it now and I got 30.
(I’m not doing the WH breathing much these days and I’m not feeling in the best state exactly today.)

I tried following all your reasoning (actually everyone on this thread) and it was not easy for my to understand the basics. Anyone want to dumb it down a bit??

 

[Runenight201]

Either approach works, so long as they get one to get a glimpse of what raised CO2 levels in the body feels like ...(aka insane bodily warmth). A difficulty with buteyko is its very difficult to carry over the maintenance of higher CO2 levels in the body to every day life. But it’s a useful practice, especially if combined with awareness meditation.

It should be apparent to any self-aware individual that not all food is the same, nor every environment, and our responses to these two inputs dictate where our health is.

Buteyko and Peat should take one to a place where they make better decisions to consistently have higher CO2 levels in the body, but neither approach will work without self-awareness!

 

[Beastmode]

My CP at best is around 25. I feel stressed if I try to go more. The biggest takeaways from Buteyko is to keep my mouth shut when I'm not speaking and it's definitely made a difference over time.

I did the home study program form Wim Hof and I experienced some cool psychedelic like experiences, euphorias, endorphin like "trips!" Walked around Boston in early January with a t shirt and jeans on....to see if I could. I noticed a sense of "confidence" after doing them and felt more "on" throughout the day. Stress hormones can feel really good at times.....ha.

If I'm ever stuck on a mountain without much clothing, I'll definitely do my Wim Hof to help me survive.
If I ever want to jump in an icy river for some silly reason, Wim Hof is definitely my "go to!"

All those experiences are nothing like the calm, assertive sense of self without the need to seek competition, proving myself, etc like since getting my thyroid sorted and engaging in activities that are enjoyable. I also haven't been sick since May of 2016. I started Peating "all in" December 2016.

 

[bluefish]

I always shy away from focusing on any trippy aspects of any given practice or experience... I don’t think that’s where to look for any lasting benefits ... that said yes I’ve felt those feelings also. I’m not sure how wim gets a random untrained person to hike almost naked within a day or so... my cold pool experience has increased gradually... I now can easily be in a 32° pool for about 10min. But longer gets hard quickly.

I’m wanting to integrate peating, w wim w oxygen advantage breathing (same as Buteyko I believe).

my waking temp and general body temp has been low when I was testing it so I assume I still have some issues to deal w.

also tbh... my focus is very distracted at times and recently definitely so I’d like to ‘fix’ that also.

 

[Beastmode]

I always shy away from focusing on any trippy aspects of any given practice or experience... I don’t think that’s where to look for any lasting benefits ... that said yes I’ve felt those feelings also. I’m not sure how wim gets a random untrained person to hike almost naked within a day or so... my cold pool experience has increased gradually... I now can easily be in a 32° pool for about 10min. But longer gets hard quickly.

I’m wanting to integrate peating, w wim w oxygen advantage breathing (same as Buteyko I believe).

my waking temp and general body temp has been low when I was testing it so I assume I still have some issues to deal w.

also tbh... my focus is very distracted at times and recently definitely so I’d like to ‘fix’ that also.

Why not drop the cold plunges and hyperventilating for a while and see what your waking and general temps do? I love that he comes from such a genuine place, but I'm not sure if the process is a very healthy one for must people.

A lot of my buddies still do the cold plunges and the hyperventilating breathing stuff and they're all hypothyroid and brag about how they can fast for so long without being hungry.

I saw Wim on the recent Netflix special GOOP and he's aged quite aggressively since I first saw him 4 years ago. He's only 60.

 

[bluefish]

Ok... that’s interesting. i really appreciate you making those suggestions. It can be challenging sometimes... you think you’re on a healthy path... and sometimes ends up you’re not.

to be clear... I’m not exactly sure I’m hyperventilating actually. I might be... I’m doing a few thoughtful sets of deep breathing and then holding. Etc similar to WH. (When I first started doing the WH, I definitely was hyperventilating and I didn’t like the overall effects. The immediate effects are awesome but it created an uneven energetic effect in my life I thought wasn’t ‘natural’ whatever that means... lol. Bottom line I just had a gut feeling I should change the breathing to something more thoughtful and that feels correct for my body).

the cold plunges I do, currently, only a few times a month. And I have to say I really love the process. So... I hope it’s healthy and not a hinderance.

Ok... so that said do you think I am having some issues from these practices? Since I’ve gotten more awareness to this forum etc I’ve be able to question a lot of these things. So yeah I’m open to making changes that will improve my health.

 

[Jekkyl]

Consider that in this situation the main purpose of heart is to pump fluid containing oxygen around the body. When you eat glucose, your need for oxygen increases, which increases heart rate too (higher heart rate is more effective at pumping oxygen all over the body). But when oxygenation is already effective due to the circumstances created by higher CO2 tolerance, lesser amount of inhaled oxygen is needed to match the ingested glucose for cellular respiration. So after a meal your heart rate would not need to raise as high. This is how I see it, correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes, that's the general idea everyone seems to miss here.

 

[EnergeticLeo]

I remember Peat talking about how estrogen promotes relative hyperventilation, while progesterone does the opposite. So maybe by taking T3, if it helps reduce estrogenic burden, it may actually reduce breathing volume, by making metabolism more efficient.

In this interview he says that while you can do breath-reduction exercises to reduce baseline hyperventilation, he just prefers to take progesterone and ensure good thyroid function, to achieve the same effect, but in a much shorter time.


View: https://youtu.be/1UOmrFJN51o?t=3446