BrundleFly in the UK

[BrundleFly91]

I'm not a good writer and have never posted in a forum but here goes:

I've listed a brief history of my ill health ,with some observations I've made along the way, that may be of help to some of you. Since you all seem really clued up and have beaten a lot of the problems that I think I have I'm hoping that someone will be able to make sense of my symptoms and history :


Had bad breath and eczema since I was ten… anyone that's had it at that early age (or any age!) knows how hard it can make life. Did the limited research you'd expect from a 10 year old inc. going to docs/GPs who didn't help or care. At 17-20 I was on a vegetarian diet(lowered stomach acid?) which seemed to make a difference in breath and skin. At 21 I decided to go vegan… had no clue how to do it and went at it alone… ended up really ill.

Vegan for only a month - I ate anything vegan/ in any combination : Vegemite, Quorn, Peanut butter etc. Skin completely changed: I'd had eczema since a young age but this was the next level… and kind of different to the eczema I'd had. Now my lips instead of being a little scabby and flakey (sorry for the visual) they were full on cracked and fissured… just putting water on them was AGONY. Naturally I thought this was the vegan diet but looking back I think it was the cramming of a combination of highly fermentable foods with slowly digesting foods (like peanut butter) down into an already sluggish digestive system that just caused all my lingering symptoms, since 10, to sky rocket.


Since getting off the vegan diet it's been a battle just to control symptoms:
Brain Fog
Low Energy
Dizziness esp. after eating
White discoloured tongue
Fissured Lips
Kind of like a sticky residue/film around lips
Low Basal Temp (low as 92 in the morning)
Dry skin
Heavy gut feeling.
Constant little hiccup like burps
Terrible sinus pain in the morning.
Can't put on weight

A big thing I've noticed is that FRUIT JUICE is a massive problem for me. It causes my symptoms to come back with a avengence : Lips being the first symptoms : hugely fissured with rashes to follow. Looking back this probably happens when I also eat a (normal, for most people) meal the same day e.g. rice, veg and protein. I get it badly when eating things like rice pudding, or sugary cereal with milk.

I've also noticed in the past that when eating a normal meal with some coconut oil or any oil I feel REALLY tired!

Probiotics or anything sugary etc. always instantly go to work on my lips leaving them with a gungey feeling.

I think these symptoms as definitely consistent with bacteria over growth… so much so that I feel like the bacteria has spread beyond my small intestine to my mouth and body.

Since leaning towards more strict food combing (fats, carbs and proteins separate) I've managed to tame most symptoms but I want to CURE them! Any advice is greatly appreciated. I've probably missed some important stuff out so please feel free to ask.

BrundleFly91 / Seth

 

[Giraffe]

BrundleFly, what foods are you eating now and how much? Do you take any supplements? Thyroid meds? ...

 

[sweetpeat]

Hi BrundleFly,
I agree with Giraffe, it would help to know how much you're eating, calorie-wise. Diets that eliminate whole food groups, like a vegan diet, tend to be too low in calories and that alone can cause a wealth of problems.
If you don't know off the top of your head, you can use cronometer.com to keep track of a typical day.

Also, what is your current activity level?

 

[BrundleFly91]

Well my diet has being changing quite a bit from day to day because my turn around of symptoms can be so fast (for the worse)... I think I can tell what has been good for me by just analysing my symptoms the next day. I mean I learn something new everyday and I'm eager to trial it... so I do.

At the moment I'm trialling raw carrots. But in the past month I've been trying herbal supplements aimed at thyroid, liver and adrenal function. e.g. ashwagandha, milk thistle, schizandra berry, juniper, astralagus, high vit C stuff too inc. Amla Berry, Peppers etc.they were all recommend by an herbalist by the name of James Sloane (appears in some of Markus Rothkranz' youtube videos.) seemed to be highly knowledgable but alas it didn't help.

I generally don't have much of an appetite. but as for my current diet : I'm basically staying off all fibres and starches (bar carrots). Eating fat and protein. Not many calories at all.

I'll see how that goes in the next couple of days. I'm really trying to stay away from any combining as I hate the dizzy drugged feeling I get when I get any where close to what the average person would eat.

Current activity level low but in the past five years I've not noticed a benefit from more activity. Which is generally a chore because I'm so off balance and drained.

I've trialled things like lots of calories from rice. Lot's of calories from fruit juice and smoothies (all symptoms increase), lot's of calories from meat(no energy). Lot's of calories from rice (seemed neutral... not benefit or gain). Lot's of calories from oil (huge drop in energy... but probably due to combining).

I've experienced good energy from going heavy with high sugar cake type things but gradually my symptoms come back and I stop.. and lose the energy. Plus it kinda feels wrong after a while haha.

Thanks guys.

 

[BrundleFly91]

Hmmm, My last post didn't get through...

I basically said my calories for today were probably about 1200 of protein and fat along with a whole bunch of carrots. That defo not enough for a 5'9" 137pound person who used to look scrawny at 155. But I don't know what to increase to calories of. and every time I increased I get a worsening of symptoms and I'm still scrawny haha.

 

[kiran]

Have you considered a vitamin deficiency of some sort? Increased calorie intake might exacerbate deficiencies. Fissured lips sounds like a b-complex deficiency.

 

[BrundleFly91]

Yes I have. I've had lots of blood tests for vitamin deficiencies. When vegan I had a vit D (probably due to being inside studying all the time). One of my bad patches actually came from increasing calories from a Sugary type malt vitamin drink... think it was called Supermalt, maybe only available in the UK.

I honestly have such a fast turn around in symptoms (e.g. one day lips ok the next day they are terrible) that I don't think it could be a bit deficiency.

So you guys don't think this sounds like SIBO? I mean I definitely have a way below normal body temp so I'm almost defo hypothyroid though, right?

 

[Giraffe]

BrundleFly, I would definitely consider gut issues / food intolerances. When a vegetarian diet helped you it did it probably thanks to removing food that was not good for you. Most of your symptoms can be explained by hypothyroidism and gut issues, and these two most often go together.

To continue our conversation from the chat ...

I had sinus problems for a decade getting worse each year. When I recovered from myxedema last year, my sinus issues were alleviated a lot, but not solved. Around the time when my health took a turn toward recovery... I introduced coconut oil, ate breakfast right after getting up, skipped gluten and worked a lot on muscle tension / posture / breathing.

I came across Ray Peat's works three months ago and have solved a couple of issues since. I think the gelatine, increase in sodium and avoidance of PUFAs (nuts), vitamin E supplement were important for me. Otherwise I have not changed my diet so much; it was quite Peat-conform already. And I stopped drinking plain water! Too much fluid is bad for hypothyroid people.

If you have not read Ray Peat's articles yet, I suggest you start with this one:
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/water.shtml

Your lack of appetite could be related to elevated stress hormones. Not enough food = elevated stress hormones. In the morning these stress hormones are highest. Try to sip some juice or milk if you don't feel like eating.

You need to figure out which foods agree with you... Starch seems not good for me. I prefer to combine fruit with dairy products. Raw bell peper makes me burp. Other members of the forum reported that they don't tolerate fruits/sugar together with starch. WestsidePUFA (?) can't have rice and fat together. You could try if you tolerate fruit juices better with a little baking soda added.

Try to focus on carbs and adequate protein. Milk, eggs, cheese or curd, gelatine, potatoes and liver (once a week or every second week) are good sources of protein. Keep fat low; stick to coconut oil, butter and ghee.

Go out for a walk by daylight as often as you can.

 

[BrundleFly91]

Hi Giraffe,
Thanks for the link. I've had difficulty getting hold of good RP sources of info. Listened to a radio interview yesterday that was pretty good called "digestion and emotion".

I'll get onto to reading the water article at some point today. But I do know that in the past when I've forced myself to have x glasses of water a day my skin got WAY drier it was weird because I've not heard of that anywhere.

I think my protein and fat sources are sound if I don't combine with carbs. I just need to find a good staple carb source to try and rev up the metabolism. I'm scared of orange, milk and fruit.. not had great experiences with them.

Giraffe, you mention sinus issues. Have you explored the possibility of low stomach acid? :

Excuse me if you've already come across the theory of LOW stomach acid causing reflux but the idea is that the longer food sits without being broken down by acids etc. then the more likely is will ferment and feed bacteria : producing gas and reflux. I got this from a recent book I read : "Heartburn: Fast Tract Digestion by Norman Robillard". He talks about choosing food based on its FP value (Fermentable Potential)

I was thinking : if heart burn/ burping/ reflux is caused by low stomach acid AND there is SIBO present then the gas produced is likely to carry bacteria/ fungi etc. up from the small intestine and into the sinus cavities thus causing irritation. Honestly that's the best explanation I've been able to come up with to explain my chronic ear, eye and sinus pain.

Implementing food combining I'm pretty has led to a decrease in ear pain this week.

I believe I probably don't have great stomach acid levels because I've tried I've taken upto 16 betaine hcl pills at a time and felt nothing... maybe that means I have an iron stomach... but if I had decent stomach acid I don't think I'd have SIBO (which I think is likely given the things I've read).

 

[Giraffe]

BrundleFly, thanks for mentioning "digestion and emotion". From the transcript: "People have experimented with even killing the lactobacillus and in itself, even when it's dead, it has a very definite anti-inflammatory effect in the intestine." This was news to me.

I do not have the typical symptoms associated with low stomach acid or GERD. Heartburn, gasses, smelly stools etc. are almost unknown to me. Also I don't have obvious food allergies. Most grains make me sleepy (almost comatose), so I eat them only once in a while. Never liked them much anyway. I avoid gluten ... Better safe than sorry, and I don't like grains anyway... I really trust my cravings. I have read so many testimonals here from people who try to recover from VLC/paleo diets... I am glad that I always sticked to my beloved dairy products and fruits.

It might be that acid reflux is causing you sinus issues; this is not the case for me though. My problem is that the mucus is too thick. There are couple of things that help me alleviate/avoiding pain:

- I massage the area around the parotid gland regularly. For me this is the most important bottleneck.
- I massage the trigmenal points.
- Nasal douche with salt water.
- Relaxing the eyes.
- Lay on my back and try to relax the back part of the head. This results in a relaxed forehead.
- Dripping a magnesium solution in my ears. I dissolve epsom salt in water, MgCl2 would do the trick too.

Stick to rice if this agrees with you. You could try apple or grape juice. Check if you are getting enough potassium with your diet.

 

[BrundleFly91]

"digestion and emotion" was definitely an interesting listen. I've seen alot of RP quotes around but good to hear from him.

I think trusting your craving is the way most of the time. One of the only times I strayed from cravings was going vegan...

Interesting that you have too much mucus. I'm actually the opposite : my sinuses are dry... like an extended sore throat kind of dry. On the subject of too much mucus : what do you think about the claim that dairy can increase mucus production?

I've been through the whole potassium thing, the iodine thing along and the cutting out sodium thing(against cravings)... didn't make me feel any better.

I wanted to reply and comment after reading the RP article on water but boy is it tough going.; Looks to be some good information but I don't think I can take it in in one go. Will give it another go tomorrow. I'm excited by how technical the articles are though. I stopped listening to the water dogma once I got bad reactions from it. I pretty much go with what works for me... but that's a work in progress. Still undecided about rice and working up the courage to trial fruit juice again.

How did you diagnose your myxedema? Any idea how you got it? Do you put much stock in the Basal body temp measurements? If so I'd be interested to know if yours raised along with your recovery from myxedema. If you've posted about that before please link me up!

 

[tara]

BrundleFly

Sorry you are having a rough time.

I too found Peat's articles hard work. I can say that the more I read and reread, the more I got out of it, and the challenge has been worth persevering with for me.

There are some good ideas above.
I too recommend assessing your nutrient intake - one way is using something like cronometer. Even if your diet is not constant, you could still plug in several different days and maybe get a useful idea about overall calories, and macro and micronutrients.

If 1200 cals is typical, then you are probably severely undernourished. In which case, finding foods you can more or less digest, and ways to cover all your nutrient needs, may be key. Your body is unlikely to have any energy available for healing if you keep starving. If you have been undereating for a long time, eating enough is likely to be a challenge - I don't know if there is a way to make it comfortable.
Specific micronutrients may also be relevant - B-vitamins came to mind for me too. Peat tends to encourage getting generous amounts of key alkaline minerals, incl. calcium, magnesium, sodium and potassium. He also encourages doing what we can to encourage efficient oxidation of sugars (glucose, fructose, lactose) from easy to digest carbohydrate sources.
Some ideas on recovery from undereating here: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4028

If you haven't yet, you could consider getting a thermometer and monitoring your body temperature and pulse a few times a day for a week or two - esp. on first waking, a half hour or so after breakfast, and some time in the afternoon. Peat considers this a useful indicator for assessing overall energy/metabolism, in conjunction with other measures. Quite a few people here do this. If you've had any lab tests for thyroid hormones, you can post them if you want to - Peat and people here often interpret them differently than the average dr. If you have had other diagnoses or advice from drs, that might be interesting too. Only share what you want to.

Peat generally recommends drinking according to thirst and salting according to taste. If you've read his water article, you'll have got that he thinks forcing a lot more water than one is thirsty for can cause unhelpful stress. Another indicator can be whether you are peeing frequently and clear (too much water) or infrequently and dark (too little water).

I find I handle fruit juice much better if I add a bit of baking soda to it to reduce the acid. (I'm drinking commercial juice. If I was drinking fresh ripe home pressed juice it might be different.) When I started out I was adding a little salt and sucrose too, but that is no longer helpful now. I tried various kinds till I found ones that seemed to work OK for me.

I guess you've read enough to have got Peat's cautions against polyunsaturated fats, and in favour of a little saturated fat instead? Coconut oil, butter, fat in beef, etc.

Low stomach acid seems like a possible contributor to the trouble. Apparently common when metabolism is low.

I imagine you've tried various lotions and potions for eczema. I don't have a long history of it, but have had some in the last year that I haven't solved, but it seems to be alleviated by daily application of moisturising fats. I make up a mixture of coconut oil, cocoa butter, a little beeswax and a few drops of vit-E. It's good on lips too. Others find plain cocoa butter helpful, or tallow-based products.

If you have a chronically dry mouth and throat, I wonder if you are breathing through your mouth instead of your nose? I managed to retrain this habit a couple of years ago, and I think it helped significantly. Some people find benefit in breathing exercises, or bag-breathing (Peat's frequent recommendation) - chronic low CO2 can contribute to trouble.

Getting regular sunlight on your skin, or in the absense of that, supplemental red light, can be important too.

I don't expect pushing yourself hard to exercise is likely to do you much good while you are in extreme energy deficit, though a bit of regular gentle enjoyable movement is good.

Good luck.

 

[Giraffe]

Interesting that you have too much mucus. I'm actually the opposite : my sinuses are dry... like an extended sore throat kind of dry. On the subject of too much mucus : what do you think about the claim that dairy can increase mucus production?

I do not have too much mucus; the mucus is too viscous. The nose is always dry, but stuff crawled down the throat as soon as I lay down. During the day I used to drink a lot of water to prevent coughing. When I hit the reverse button (health decline wise) the situation improved dramatically in a matter of days. I don't believe that milk is causing problems (not for me).

Do you put much stock in the Basal body temp measurements? If so I'd be interested to know if yours raised along with your recovery from myxedema. If you've posted about that before please link me up!

In the past I have not measured temps so often. It was mostly 35-36°C (oral). Resting pulse was a little over 50. I was already following Peat's recommendations for a couple of weeks when I started measuring temps and resting pulse regularly. Now: resting pulse 80, temps most of the time 36.5 - 37.2°C.

 

[aguilaroja]

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/95576/
...At 17-20 I was on a vegetarian diet(lowered stomach acid?) which seemed to make a difference in breath and skin. At 21 I decided to go vegan… ended up really ill.

Vegan for only a month - I ate anything vegan/ in any combination : Vegemite, Quorn, Peanut butter etc. Skin completely changed: I'd had eczema since a young age but this was the next level… and kind of different to the eczema I'd had. Now my lips instead of being a little scabby and flakey (sorry for the visual) they were full on cracked and fissured…
it's been a battle just to control symptoms:
Brain Fog
Low Energy
Dizziness esp. after eating
White discoloured tongue
Fissured Lips
Kind of like a sticky residue/film around lips
Low Basal Temp (low as 92 in the morning)
Dry skin
Heavy gut feeling.
Constant little hiccup like burps
Terrible sinus pain in the morning.
Can't put on weight

First, you might ask a forum moderator to switch this thread to the "Ask for Advice" section.

Short version:

While your report is useful, many factors remain to be determined. Browse the web and do a longer inventory for yourself of low thyroid symptoms.

Fatigue, low body temperature, cloudy thinking, and digestive issues are suggestive of low metabolism, for which a low thyroid function picture is often descriptive.

Inability to gain weight, dizziness, and digestive issues suggest a high adrenaline state is a major mode to compensate for low metabolism. Cool limbs, "chilled to the bone" cold intolerance, a thin/slim body frame, reduced sweating (even in hot weather), and low blood pressure are other characteristics that often appear in this compensation. Doctor and health professionals frequently dismiss this kind of low metabolism, because it is "opposite" the stereotype of hypothyroidism.

I would suggest measuring and recording resting pulse and temperature at least once per day, for at least a week. If you have been using the underarm/axillary measurement, switch to an ear or mouth thermometer. If the thermometer is electric ("digital"), measure several times at the same sitting, and record the highest one. If you'd like to measure several times a day, that's fine and more data is better. If doing things only once per day, I suggest measuring closer to mid-day. If things are low at mid-day, they are likely low all day. But measure at a time that is workable for you-some data is better than none.

(I am going to save arguing for my rationale for another debate. I'll let you read other temperature measure discussions in the forum. I am familiar with Broda Barnes's suggestions, Dr. Peat's, Dr. Rind's, etc. etc.)

If not already done recently and you have access to lab testing, at the very least have a TSH test done (and look up other suggested labs on this forum). If you know a doctor/practitioner who carefully measures tendon reflexes, observing the return phase of the reflex can help track things.

In the short term, see if you can comfortably use salt in cooking and sprinkled as a condiment, and/or use epsom salt/baking soda/salt foot baths or baths.

There are many on this forum who advocate for problem solving digestion as the primary route for restoring metabolism. But things work in many directions. With a high adrenaline compensation for low metabolism, digestion and absorption are markedly impaired.

 

[BrundleFly91]

Thanks aguilaroja. Thanks for the advice. I'll look into the ramifications of high adrenaline and see if I can post in a more relevant section.

Yes, My doctor completely and quickly dismissed thyroid problems when I mentioned it to her months ago.

Before coming this forum I'd not heard of measuring pulse rate but I have measured by my body temp using readings first thing in the morning with a mercury thermometer under the arm. I was getting very low temps as low as 92F with an average of 94F of ten days. But I'll begin reading up on it again.

I've read low temps scream hypo before but as I've spent all my savings and am now in debt I can't afford to go see doctors privately for tests anymore. So I'm willing to try any Hypo/ high adrenaline/ metabolism approaches to see if I can feel the difference.

 

[BrundleFly91]

@tara : thanks for the welcome! I really appreciate the response too!


1200cal is not typical (but not far off either) it's just that those carrots really filled me up. When I started getting severe symptoms 4-5 years back I think I was eating TOO much I mean I was always skinny and never put on weight so I was shamelessly stuffing my face with anything… wouldn't be surprised if I was at 3000 calories per day.

It's only in the last year really that I think it could be said I was under eating just because I've been scared to try things that will probably set me back…. I mean I've kept logs for months looking out for allergies but couldn't pin it on anything! SO frustrating!

I definitely think you're right that finding foods I can digest without ill effect may be key.

Well I had dismissed B vitamins as I'm pretty sure blood work ruled that out but I'll revisit because if I recall B vitamins can be affected my gut bacteria.

My body temps is insanely low and in the morning my skin looks dead literarily like a cadaver.

Yes the use of the saturated fats you mention is something that I found worked for me before even coming to RP.

POTIONS N LOTIONS!!! I've had them since I can remember. Strong steroid ones too. In fact when I was really young I was actually diagnosed with vitiligo but it mysteriously went away (possibly an early indicator of thyroid problems?) Anyway when I went veggie my skin was the best ever! not great but the best… unfortunately that didn't last for long Tara, have you done any posts on your eczema? I'll see if I can shed any light on it.

Mouth breathing!!! My other mater health problem is my chronic tmj and bite/teeth problems… ortho completely wrecked my jaw with extractions and braces at 16 before I even knew what was going on. I was mouth breathing a bunch in my teens but for years it's being through my dry nose haha at night I always revert back to mouth breathing which makes my lips worse in the morning (I know this because the "BUTeyko method" recommend taping your mouth shut at night to train oral posture… when I do this my lips aren't as bad). Not heard of bag breathing… must check it out.

Tara btw it was suggested by aguilaroja that I might want to ask a moderator about switching this thread to a more relevant section. You being a moderator... what do you think? Shall I just start up a new thread?

 

[charlie]

[ref]BrundleFly91[/ref],

I have moved your thread to the ask for help section.

See you around the forum.

 

[tara]

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/95811/ 1200cal is not typical (but not far off either) it's just that those carrots really filled me up. When I started getting severe symptoms 4-5 years back I think I was eating TOO much I mean I was always skinny and never put on weight so I was shamelessly stuffing my face with anything… wouldn't be surprised if I was at 3000 calories per day.

Growing young men typically eat around 3500 cals. If you were eating 3000 cals and not gaining weight, I don't think you were overeating. If you've been eating a lot less than that for a long time, then I'd suspect semi-starvation as a major contributor to low metabolism and other damage. 94F is very low. Have you read about the Minnesota semi-starvation experiment? I understand it is difficult when you are having trouble digesting food, and your body does not have the energy and whatever else it needs to repair digestion.

From what I've read, sometimes people can show fine blood levels of some minerals and vitamins while they are starving, because it is coming out of their own catabolising bodies. But I don't know which ones this applies to. I think deficiencies may show up more or less on a particular day depending on what else you are eating.

I think Giraffe made some very good points, and that there are situations when trying to keep fat consumption low makes good sense. But I don't think it is a good idea when you are starving and having trouble getting in enough energy. I do think it's worth minimising PUFA as far as practically possible, but I'd encourage you to keep eating moderate amounts of butter and coconut oil for the meantime, while you experiment to find more workable foods.

I do think you need other nutrients too, but you can check out how you do on pure sucrose, honey, etc for a part of your carbs energy.

There are some people here who recovered from severe digestive damage. You may find something useful there - I'll see if I can think of how to find one or two - even better if they spot this thread and point to their stories themselves.

If you can find a doctor in your vicinity who is experienced with helping people recover from anorexia and such-like, they may be more understanding about your situation (I'm not saying I think you are anorexic - but you do seem very undernourished).

I taped my mouth shut almost every night for more than a year, before I eventually restored the habit of keeping it mostly shut at night myself. Now I only do it if I have a cold. I slept better and woke up in better shape with this change. And my colds recovered much quicker too.

 

[tara]

Well cooked green veges can supply some useful minerals, which may be especially important if you are having trouble with fruit. If the fibre bothers you, you can drink the stock (eg in a soup with homemade beef stock, and whatever else you can eat).

 

[tara]

Not from Peat, but you may find these interesting/relevant, even if you don't fit the definitions of restrictive eating disorders:
http://www.youreatopia.com/blog/2011/9/ ... ories.html
http://www.youreatopia.com/blog/2014/2/ ... ubles.html

If you've ever had blood tests for thyroid hormones, you should be able to request the results from your doctor. Not just the general -'OK, in the normal range', but the actual numbers. Some drs have it in their heads that all hypothyroid folk are overweight, so they rule it out without testing, even when all the other signs line up. With the troubles you've been having, and if you've told here you were consistently getting temps around 94F, if these have never been tested then your dr may be particularly underinformed. But if they show low thyroid hormones, it may be that food is still key. They can be expected to reduce under famine conditions.

I'd go with Aguilaroja's advice on measuring temps - I think it's an area he has looked into pretty thoroughly.