Advice For Chronic Neck Pain?

[oisinh3]

It's been ongoing for about 6 months. It began one night reading in bed, my neck was resting at a very awkward angle, twisted to one side while I held the book up to my face. That night it started hurting and I got some brief (2-3 seconds) visual darkness, and numbness in the back and top of my head. I soon developed numbness in the front of my neck, and serious blurriness in my right eye. The numbness has largely resolved itself, so has my eye. (Though I'm pretty sure it's not back to normal, it's slower to focus but does at least focus now.

I had a brain MRI that ruled out any congenital stuff, MS, cancer etc. Came back normal. I had another cervical spine MRI only recently, about a month ago. It also came back normal, ruling out pinched nerves etc. Recently the pain has progressed to my collarbones and the front and sides of my neck (it was mostly in the back of my neck before). The sides of my neck, especially the right side, have been very sore and tender, and this usually is accompanied by ear pressure and popping/clicking. ('ve had repeated ear infections throughout this ordeal, and some TMJ problems. Recently I've also developed some annoying twitching in my right thumb and upper arm.

I'm getting worried as to what might be causing this and my GP has recommended physical therapy, but they've closed those services in my country due to coronavirus. I'd still like to know the root cause of this. I don't know whether to press my GP to see further specialists for more tests.

I've read some things about thoracic outlet syndrome causing neck pain, but it usually affects the arms more.

It gets better with rest and ice packs, but gets instantly worse if I try to sit up for a day or do anything but lay down.

 

[Gone Peating]

Sounds like you might have TMJ, that is that your joints are out of place. TMJ often results in neck and shoulder pain, not always jaw and face pain.

Find a qualified tmj doctor that can take determine if the joints are in fact out of place. Once they are out of place they usually can't be put back in place unfortunately. But they can do other treatments to help.

 

[Diokine]

Do you experience bloating or fullness in your stomach after meals? This is most likely best analyzed through a look at the interactions of the respiratory centers, diaphragm, and nerves. Specifically the interaction with the trigeminal nerve, phrenic nerve, and brain stem. Hyperinsulinemia will be a significant trigger, as will excessive blue light exposure and improper light hygiene.

Issues with the liver or stomach can refer irritation to the phrenic nerve on the right side, this chronic irritation progresses to mild neuropathy and dysregulation of vagal tone. This is usually associated with chronic gut irritation and loss of barrier integrity.

Do you get enough copper? You may have a significant malabsorption issue with minerals like zinc and copper and dysregulation of intestinal mucosa. This can progress to irritation, swelling, and compression of the brain stem.

The twitching in the arms can also be a referral from the diaphragm and phrenic nerve to the brachial plexus. Focusing on full, rib cage expanding breaths can help. Have you had any blood work? I would also suspect possible irritation from immunological triggers possibly effecting the trigeminal nucleus and pons/brain stem. Is it hard to look down at times, especially in the morning?

 

[marcar72]

I'm getting worried as to what might be causing this

Have you ruled out an occult tooth infection??

 

[james2388]

Get a massage and go see a good chiropractor. Find a new position to read or get an ereader device, preferably not a kindle, but a tablet to format textbooks- my preference.

 

[Diokine]

+1 on tooth infection

 

[Jib]

Try a Denneroll and Tension Releazzzer. I know. The names. But bear with me.

It isn't gonna be a cure-all, but they can help a lot for relaxing the muscles in the neck, and actually help to put the appropriate curvature back in the neck over time.

They also make 'traction' devices, the ones that you can inflate by blowing into them, that help decompress your neck. I've used those quite a bit and they do help. A combo of all of those are very good tools to have at your disposal. Worst case scenario they are relaxing and will provide temporary relief, but with consistent use I think they do much more than that.

 

[mujuro]

It might sound a bit New Age, but I agree with the other posts in that TMJ dysfunction can have seriously powerful negative effects, despite its size. It’s proximity to the vestibular and ear canals can produce pretty strange CNS and sensory issues. Also, persistent pain makes us clench the jaw, and if it’s persistent neck/jaw pain, then you find yourself in a feedback loop.

 

[BingDing]

It's easy to increase sodium and magnesium for a couple days, try it and see what happens. There is little to lose.

 

[aussiebaldguy]

If your posture is off your neck can be off. Check you dont have any postural syndromes. There are numerous videos on youtube for demonstrating very common syndromes and correcting posture.
Common things are tight psoas muscles from sitting too much.

 

[boris]

Posture plays a big role. I always have a crunchy neck from years of working at a desk. It got very much better from nutrition, but neck stretches and exercises help keep it mobile (there are lots on youtube).

 

[oisinh3]

Thank you all for the replies.

Sounds like you might have TMJ, that is that your joints are out of place. TMJ often results in neck and shoulder pain, not always jaw and face pain.

I was told by my dentist that I grind my teeth in my sleep, and I have had some trouble with TMJ. I will seek out a TMJ expert, thanks for the reply.

Do you experience bloating or fullness in your stomach after meals? This is most likely best analyzed through a look at the interactions of the respiratory centers, diaphragm, and nerves. Specifically the interaction with the trigeminal nerve, phrenic nerve, and brain stem. Hyperinsulinemia will be a significant trigger, as will excessive blue light exposure and improper light hygiene.

Issues with the liver or stomach can refer irritation to the phrenic nerve on the right side, this chronic irritation progresses to mild neuropathy and dysregulation of vagal tone. This is usually associated with chronic gut irritation and loss of barrier integrity.

Do you get enough copper? You may have a significant malabsorption issue with minerals like zinc and copper and dysregulation of intestinal mucosa. This can progress to irritation, swelling, and compression of the brain stem.

The twitching in the arms can also be a referral from the diaphragm and phrenic nerve to the brachial plexus. Focusing on full, rib cage expanding breaths can help. Have you had any blood work? I would also suspect possible irritation from immunological triggers possibly effecting the trigeminal nucleus and pons/brain stem. Is it hard to look down at times, especially in the morning?

I don't experience fullness or bloating. I'm currently on a ketogenic diet as it dramatically improved my energy levels and brain fog, so I don't think hyperinsulinemia is an issue. I take a zinc supplement, but not copper. I'll look into that. I've had some blood work done, everything came back fine. Thyroid, blood panel, sugar etc. I don't really have any trouble looking down but holding it there will be difficult for long. Pain is triggered when I bend my neck backwards and look up. Thanks for your reply.

Have you ruled out an occult tooth infection??

I did have an x-ray of my teeth and jaw to rule out any possible infection, thanks.

Get a massage and go see a good chiropractor. Find a new position to read or get an ereader device, preferably not a kindle, but a tablet to format textbooks- my preference.

I have a massage planned for the 21st this month. I'm scheduled for physiotherapy on the 23rd, I may try chiropracting in future if needed. Thank you.

Try a Denneroll and Tension Releazzzer. I know. The names. But bear with me.

It isn't gonna be a cure-all, but they can help a lot for relaxing the muscles in the neck, and actually help to put the appropriate curvature back in the neck over time.

They also make 'traction' devices, the ones that you can inflate by blowing into them, that help decompress your neck. I've used those quite a bit and they do help. A combo of all of those are very good tools to have at your disposal. Worst case scenario they are relaxing and will provide temporary relief, but with consistent use I think they do much more than that.

I will definitely look into these. I have an inflatable traction device I use regularly, it has helped over time I think. Thanks.

It might sound a bit New Age, but I agree with the other posts in that TMJ dysfunction can have seriously powerful negative effects, despite its size. It’s proximity to the vestibular and ear canals can produce pretty strange CNS and sensory issues. Also, persistent pain makes us clench the jaw, and if it’s persistent neck/jaw pain, then you find yourself in a feedback loop.

I won't rule out TMJ, I don't underestimate its' ability to wreak havoc.

It's easy to increase sodium and magnesium for a couple days, try it and see what happens. There is little to lose.

I'm pretty sure I get enough sodium, I get a lot of salt. I'm also taking magnesium glycinate supplements. Thanks you.

If your posture is off your neck can be off. Check you dont have any postural syndromes. There are numerous videos on youtube for demonstrating very common syndromes and correcting posture.
Common things are tight psoas muscles from sitting too much.

Posture plays a big role. I always have a crunchy neck from years of working at a desk. It got very much better from nutrition, but neck stretches and exercises help keep it mobile (there are lots on youtube).

I tried using a posture corrector thing for a few days, but experienced a lot of pain following that so I've been scared to try it again. I will eventually, I definitely didn't have good posture for most of my life. Thank you.

 

[BingDing]

@oisinh3 Don't mean to be a pain in the neck (heh) but there are differences between "a lot of salt" and adequate sodium. And magnesium is notoriously difficult to supplement sometimes. I'd say the easiest, cheapest, and safest step is dose 2 tsp of salt and a lot of Mg Chloride (topically, Mg Oil it is called), for a couple days. If it doesn't work it doesn't work, you lose almost nothing by trying it. Virtually no risk of harm, unlike treatment by the mechanical contractors calling themselves doctors.

 

[Sheila]

@Diokine,
Good morning,
Could you please suggest some resources, that you found useful, to look into these nervous system interactions further?
I would be most grateful for some pointers to info that has helped you form these integrated suggestions.

@oisinh3, i wish you godspeed with your healing journey.

I have a dear friend who is overcoming serious issues akin to yours and was initially on the (not so) merry go round of conventional 'car parts' medicine to no avail. Many good thoughts on this page but I personally have found Diokine's integrated thinking to be the closest to gaining a fuller understanding of myriad symptoms in this kind of scenario that can be very confusing, not to mention life-threatening. So, the gut/nervous system linkages have been our focus and taking things very, very slowly with physical exercises, or the 'response' to accidental overstimulation has been nasty. Similarly re chiro/osteo/physio help - too much and a world of hurt ensued, even with competence and good intention as a given. Patience has been essential and hard won. But, she is improving slowly every day and so it is possible to heal, even without knowing 'what it is', although i understand your wish to know - this has eased for my friend as she has taken charge of her health. Hopefully, having had MRIs done to rule out the more obvious worries has helped you also. Now at nearly 8 months, she has also let go of the 'sudden initiatory event' with a fuller understanding that the dysfunction had been building for decades and now could be compensated for no further. But, everyone is different.

Fwiw, then, since each person is different, gently cleaning out her gut, each and every day, slow, gentle walks, some kind of breathing practice (full diaphragmatic was far too much at least initially), very digestible, simple foods with very little starch really helped. With the foods, it was trial and observe. And sunshine. What didn't help was most supplements at least orally, so we used on skin if we had to. Traumeel by Heel was helpful, the cream; internal tabs were not tolerated. Reading up on the PNS and vagus was so helpful but dont stop at the 'brake' and 'accelerator' PNS/SNS analogies, it is much more nuanced.... listen to pogues, levine if you can't read for long perhaps.

One test was mildly useful - the 'sniff test' which looks at phrenic (in gross terms) and diaphragm response was handy in her case, not because there is anything much that can be done but it gave us more data on what we suspected and then we could work from there. (once again, Diokine, was spot on with rhs liver/gallbladder involvement too, and also the right lung detoxifies serotonin, so if that is impaired, dont expect anything to be normal, and high body serotonin can cause all manner of weird body symptoms, and also fwiw we think, high platelet counts). Otherwise endless blood tests were largely normal and then the conventional response here was must be 'mental issues' and anti-depressants..... Looking at Michael Samsel's website, search under vagal and dorsal shift helped with understandings and looking at physical options. And hope, which, god bless her, she managed to maintain.

I hope something in here is useful to you.
Sincerely,
Sheila

 

[GelatinGoblin]

Had neck pain since I was little due to really bad posture habits.
Bodyweight neck training, Neck Curls, Neck extensions, Side Neck Curls. This + sunlight, nutrition and keeping stress at normal levels helped me a lot.
You can do it from your bed, on a chair with no shoulders, sofa whatever. Just avoid neck/wrestler bridges or you'll end up messing it up really badly!

Endotoxin overload and high stress can bring it back once in a blue moon nowadays.

 

[mostlylurking]

I suffered from TMJ for many years. It was really really bad. There were times when I could not open my mouth. The super good dentist with a Mastery in Dentistry fitted me with mouth appliances. It didn't work. Tried several different styles. Didn't work.

Then I got my hypothyroidism adequately addressed by my endocrinologist; he doubled my natural desiccated thyroid med and also changed it from Armour to Acella NP Thyroid. The TMJ went away, along with the other joint issues.

Ray Peat talks about the connection of hypothyroidism with TMJ somewhere, I remember. It is helpful to understand that if you are hypothyroid you cannot "hold on to" magnesium and so you are more likely to be deficient.

 

[Elize]

Try Feldenkrais exercises
Videos on YouTube look for
Stewart Hamblin
Posture Queen
Alfons

OR

Hannah Somatics yoga by James Knight also on YouTube.

Best wishes

Elize

 

[Lejeboca]

Try Feldenkrais exercises
Videos on YouTube look for
Stewart Hamblin
Posture Queen
Alfons

OR

Hannah Somatics yoga by James Knight also on YouTube.

Best wishes

Elize

+1 For Feldenkrais For example, Lesson 6 - Hands on your neck — DAVID HALL

(I didn't try the other techniques that Elize mentioned.)

 

[Heroico]

Stop going around asking people what to do. This has nothing to do with nutrition or tmj and stay away anyone asking you to write a check. use very light dumb bells maybe one pound and do six floor to above head lifts twice daily or more (I think the correct form is called clean and jerk). Look up the motion on YouTube Don’t do any other lifting unless this seems fun to you Your problem is lack of muscular conditioning. It will get better in a few weeks. Don’t overtrain. Good luck!

 

[Gone Peating]

I suffered from TMJ for many years. It was really really bad. There were times when I could not open my mouth. The super good dentist with a Mastery in Dentistry fitted me with mouth appliances. It didn't work. Tried several different styles. Didn't work.

Then I got my hypothyroidism adequately addressed by my endocrinologist; he doubled my natural desiccated thyroid med and also changed it from Armour to Acella NP Thyroid. The TMJ went away, along with the other joint issues.

Ray Peat talks about the connection of hypothyroidism with TMJ somewhere, I remember. It is helpful to understand that if you are hypothyroid you cannot "hold on to" magnesium and so you are more likely to be deficient.

This could probably cure most people experiencing TMJ pain, because for most people it's not a structural issue, it's more like tendinitis in the tmjs.

There are some people (like me) who had their tmj discs, which keep the jawbones from coming into contact with one another, slip out of place. When this happens splint therapy or surgery are the only options. Statistically surgery usually doesn't work. For people with extreme cases of tmj splint therapy is the only option. I only bring this up because it's a possibility that one should rule out if you have symptoms like OP. A good tmj dentist will exhaust more conservative treatment approaches first

The fact that OP has popping/clicking in his tmjs to go along with the severe pain leads me to believe it's very likely that one or both of his discs slipped out of place.

OP if you want to rule out a tmj disorder I suggest you look up the American Board of Craniofacial Pain and use their map of dentists to find one near you and one that is qualified