Adjustment phase?

[OJ15]

Hi guys,
I'm new to the board so I thought I would get some advice from all you clever people :)

I was a late bloomer and started developing pretty bad acne in my late teens/early twenties. To combat this I received oral tetracyclin for a couple of years which really helped at first. Then it kind of resurfaced again, which caused me to adapt a paleo diet with occasional intermittent fasting. That seemed to be the answer for everything at the time. I probably did that for a couple of years until moving on to a more metabolism oriented way of thinking.

I've probably been doing Peat for half a year or so, and my daily diet includes:
-1 quart of milk
-1½ quart of OJ
-2-3 eggs
-applesauce with calcium powder
-3 cups of coffee
-200 grams of meat (ground beef, buttered chicken breast etc.)
-1 carrot
-100 grams of sugar mixed with food
-salt to taste

I probably get between 2500 and 3000 cals a day (I'm a 6 foot 2, 172 pound 26 yo male)

Along with that I eat beef liver twice a week, 1 can of smoked oysters a week, and occasionally I'll have some potatoes/oats/rice for variety's sake.
I supplement with D, E, K2, aspirin and NDT. I also just started doing rebreathing.

I have a couple of qustions regarding all of this, that I hope you can help me with.

1. I just started taking bovine NDT 2 weeks ago and I have noticed some changes. Some days my skin will be looking pretty good, only to regress a day or two later. I feel like this is my body adjusting to NDT, and it being a phase I need to go through. Is there any merit to this way of thinking?

2. My elimation (urine + no. 2) has also been up and down since I started NDT a couple weeks ago. In the beggining I got a little constipated, then one day I had 3 bm's before noon. This seems to have normalized now. Also, I've experienced more nocturnal urination and night sweats during my short period on NDT.

Will up-regulating your thyroid cause symptoms to flare up and down, as the body adjusts its machinery?

I hope to hear from some of you,
Kind regards

 

[tara]

OJ15

How much NDT are you taking?

From my reading here, not personal experience.
It takes 2-4 weeks for T4 levels to stabilise after beginning/increasing T4 supplementation (the T3 component of NDT has a much shorter half life.)

I gather there can be a slight increase in sensitivity to adrenaline as thyroid hormones increase. This should come right if the dose is appropriate.

Too high a dose can cause unnecessary stress and other issue making it harder to assess appropriate dose.

Supplementing thyroid while under-eating can cause extra stress. My guess is you are slightly under-eating for a tall man. More sweet food, either during the day or before sleep may help stock glycogen supplies to get you through the night and reduce the nocturnal waking/peeing. Some of us seem to need night-time snacks to reduce hunger (low sugar) stress. Some people have gelatine at night to help against night-time stress. You could add gelatine to your meat meals too, if you wanted, to help balance the proteins.

Improved thyroid function should improve intestinal peristalsis.

My impression is that the cautious approach to NDT dosing - approaching optimal temps slowly from below in small increments every 3 weeks has a lot to recommend it.

Are you tracking temps and pulse? Temps apparently respond fairly quickly to increasing thyroid function. This seems to be one of the most useful indicators to guide dosing.

It seems that acne is often not the first thing to settle as people improve diet and metabolism. Temps, pulse, and your feeling of wellness and energy are probably better guides to whether you are on the right track with metabolism overall. Sometime specific vitamin or mineral deficiencies turn out to be key for particular people.

Good luck

 

[OJ15]

Hi Tara and thanks,

I'm taking a natural thyroid glandular that contains 140 mg pr. tablet. I took a ½ the first week, 1 the second week and currently 1½ the third week. I might've escalated a bit too fast, I'll try easing off a bit to see if it helps. Should I do ½ a tablet for the next three weeks, then 1 tablet for three weeks etc.?

I started suspecting my nocturnal urination might be caused by my fluid intake, but it wasn't as much of a problem before I began NDT.
What foods are good before bed? (preferably solids as I feel liquids might aggravate nocturnal urination?)

I haven't been diligent enough in my effort to track temps and pulse, even though I'm aware of the significance of those diagnostic tools. The last time I checked my waking armpit temp was around 98.6, and my resting heartrate about 63-65 bpm.

Like I mentioned, I have noticed improvements in some areas but it appears I might've overdosed the NDT and combined it with an inadequate amount of calories. This is obviously not a good idea. I'll dial back the NDT and dial up the sugar.
Thanks for the help Tara!

 

[tara]

Hi OJ15,

For NDT, the cautious approach to dosing that I've seen, and that I think would make sense if I were to try it myself, is something like this:

Measure waking body temp every day for at least a couple of weeks.

If usually below 97.8, consider starting to supplement. (could possibly raise the bar a little, but I think Broda Barnes guideline was to aim for a waking temp in the range 97.8 - 98.2)

Start with a dose of 1/4 grain (~15mg)/day. Continue at this level for 3-4 weeks. Keep tracking morning temps.
If waking temps stabilise in the range 97.8 - 98.2, continue this dose.

If temps rise but still not in this range, increase dose by 1/4 grain (~15mg). Continue for 3-4 weeks. Continue to monitor waking temps.

Keep increasing dose by 1/4 grain (15mg) every 3-4 weeks till waking temps are in the target range.

If waking temps above 97.8, but have hypothyroid-like symptoms, measure and record temps several times throughout the day for several days, along with heart rate and timing in relation to meals. The patterns in this data can help distinguish to what extent temps are being maintained by thyroid as opposed to stress hormones, and whether supplementation is likely to be wise. I haven't learned how to interpret this data, but I think there are others here who have.
Or, if you have lab results indicating hypothyroid, this can be a basis for starting to supplement.

If the natural thyroid glandular is full NDT, ie it has its natural proportions of T4 and T3, then 70 mg is a bit more than 1 grains, and is a fairly high starting dose. The T4 levels in your system could well have been still on the rise from your starting dose after a week when you doubled the dose, and had probably not stabilised when you again incremented after another week. This could well be contributing to the issues you've had. A waking armpit temp of 98.6, if it is sustained by thyroid rather than stress hormones, is high enough that you probably don't need more. Resting heart rates can apparently take a while to catch up - the temperature is a more timely indicator.

If you have been taking too much, then I expect it would make sense to lower your dose. It is possible that your body could by now be adapting to the high dose in ways that might give symptoms when you reduce, but I'm not sure what to expect, or how fast to lower the dose. Others may have advice about this.
I strongly suggest you get into the habit of measuring and recording temps for a while while you make dose adjustments.

At the risk of giving you a bum steer from inexperience and ignorance, I'd consider dropping back to 1/8 tablet (~ 17mg) for a month to let the T4 level stabilise, monitor temps, and then see if you need to add in another 1/8 tablet for the next month. I hope others with more experience of getting this right for themselves can chime in here.

Good luck

 

[jimmyquick]

Im new to this board as well, but can relate exactly to your post.

I was put on NDT about 5 weeks ago , (server hypo from under-eating due to an illness a year ago) but only experienced increase urination for a bit when I started, which quickly subsided. I started with 1 NDT per day for 2 weeks (didn't notice much ) then bumped it up to 2 per day.

From your size, calories compared to me seem low for roughly the same does. (agin not sure which one your taking as im sure regardless of the mg more prb depends on quality of the NDT). I am 30yrs old, 5'11", and weight only 140 and eat twice as much as you.

Just curious, when you started increasing your dose did your appetite also increase? I was underweight (and still slightly am) so perhaps this is why I eat so much more at the moment. I also prb increased a bit too fast but I never once had problems or felt hyper symptoms. I just would get super hungry!

Regardless, I would def try and keep track of your temps like Tara suggest. I went from low 96 to mid 98's and then I backed off my does to 1 pill a day when I hit 98 and so far so good. It's been nice and steady and I feel a million times better than I did a few months ago. I can pretty much tell what my temp will be now based on how my energy levels feel.

 

[OJ15]

Thanks for the replies Tara and Jimmy.

I noticed nice, although subtle differences during the first week or so when I only did ½ a tablet. I think I might've just ramped up the dose way to quickly for my body to keep up with demands, especially if I've been undereating a bit.

I take Nutri Thyroid by Nutri Advanced brand - and the ingredient description says it's thyroxine-free, as in T4, is this a bad product?

I'm not sure that I can divide the tabs into eight pieces, do you think it would be okay to start with 1/4 tab a day for a month while tracking temps and pulse?

I've been skinny my whole life Jimmy and I would really like to get to around 185-190 lbs. I've read Peat saying underweight individuals being able to put on body weight, when they fixed their thyroid/metabolism. That might explain why none of my attempts at bulking and strength training have succeeded?
To my recollection, my appetite was at its highest during my paleo phase. I've always been a slow eater, usually leaving leftovers as a child.

So you say body temps can be increased either by thyroid (good) or by stress hormones (bad). Is the same true for warmth of the extremities? (I always thought I was in a "good spot" when I was feeling warm in situations when other people we're feeling cold.)

 

[OJ15]

Also, I just realized I wrote my last temperature measurement said 98.6. I meant to write 96.8 for the morning armpit temp, and this morning I was all the way down to 96.2. Clearly some imbalance at the moment.

 

[tara]

I take Nutri Thyroid by Nutri Advanced brand - and the ingredient description says it's thyroxine-free, as in T4, is this a bad product?

I don't know if that is a good product or not.

What I wrote about NDT dosing I meant for a product that does contain thyroxine (T4) and tri-iodothyronin (T3) in natural proportions. So if the tablets you are taking does not contain T4 (thyroxine) (I guess they took the T3c out too, but if it doesn't say on the packet, I don't know), then nothing I wrote about NDT dosing applies to it.

If you felt better with a litte and worse on a lot, then maybe that's worth following.

 

[tara]

If you are trying to put on weight, I would expect you'd have to eat more food. Average weight-stable non-dieting men eat about 3000 cals. More under 25 while body is still growing and maturing, more if tall like you. If you've been undereating for a while, that could explain some of your troubles. It's possible that if you eat enough that will be be enough to improve some things.

 

[jimmyquick]

It's hard to give dosing advice due to the differences in brands. What does your brand say to start with?

I am taking Thyro-Gold, which does have the t4. For my NDT, it says to start with one or two (pills) a day and do it for 2 weeks (while tracking temps and plus) and increase accordingly.

Check out the Thyro Gold Q&A. (Just google Thyro- Gold) Might help you address the over stimulation concern. They have a good help page. Ironically, it also mentions the NDT you are taking and someone having some issues with it. Might be similar to you and you can compare.

I am in the same boat as you though, I have been super skinny all my life, but before I could just eat whatever I wanted without concern, always warm when other were cold. Once I got sick I become severe hypo, zero energy, depress, hair was thinning. I tried and tired to eat more and lift weights to gain weight after I was better, but to no avail. Did this for about a year and nothing changed.

When I first started the NDT on one pill a day I didn't really notice anything. But like many have commented on here, I think it can take a while to build up. Once I hit the 2 a day mark I saw my temps start to go up, then I started getting more and more energy. Finally my appetite came back. As far as I know I haven't experienced any over stimulation (judging by temps and heart rate) I think you have to take quite a bit for that, so maybe you are just having a reaction to that brand?

It's interesting to me that it hans't increased your appetite. Did you say you felt more energy? Not like manic, but can easily do the things you want without being exhausted. And I agree with Peat, with a corrected metabolism we should be able to add on some healthy weight. I am slowing getting back to my normal 150lbs.(which is still skinny!) I got knocked down to 120 when I was ill so you can image how frail I was.

Anyway, hope that helps you, maybe someone else with chime in if they take that brand and can help you more or let you know if they had similar symptoms.

 

[OJ15]

When I asked about the T4-free product being bad or not, I was probably more wondering about the usefulness of a thyroxine-free product. Would a T3-only product be helpful? (I guess I just assumed a more complete product the better.)

Read the Thyro-Gold faq, it actually addressed my exact product and said that it seems questionable to remove T4 only. (I.e. either you leave ALL the hormones intact, or you remove ALL the hormones from the product). Anyone have any insight into this "theory"?

I've ordered another glandular (Nutri Pak) that supposedly contains all the active thyroid components (T 1, 2, 3, 4 + calcitonin). I'll probably experiment with that when it arrives, and take a break from the supposedly inactive product I'm using now. I would like to first experiment with my current glandular, seeing as I've already begun and paid for it. But on the other side it would suck to waste 2-3 months experimenting with an ineffective/inactive supplement. Does that train of thought make any sense?
But perhaps a couple of weeks on the new glandular will provide much faster/better results, thus letting me know it is the better of the two. Time will tell I guess.

Btw, what are you guys' thoughts on adrenal fatigue? I remember reading both Peat and Roddy saying that AF is a "myth", and as your thyroid strenghtens everything else will fall into place.

Have a nice weekend, OJ

 

[OJ15]

One more thing :)

How would you advice i bump up my calories. I think it might be detrimental (nocturnal urination, diluting cellular mineral levels etc.) to increase my liquid calories, as I'm almost consuming a gallon of liquids a day.
Reading "Eat for Heat" by Matt Stone, I remember how he emphasized prioritizing solids over fluids.
Is there any merit to that thought?

Thanks again

 

[tara]

One more thing :)

How would you advice i bump up my calories. I think it might be detrimental (nocturnal urination, diluting cellular mineral levels etc.) to increase my liquid calories, as I'm almost consuming a gallon of liquids a day.
Reading "Eat for Heat" by Matt Stone, I remember how he emphasized prioritizing solids over fluids.
Is there any merit to that thought?

Thanks again

Could well be relevant. Quite a few people with hypothyroid symptoms have trouble with that amount of fluids; it would be too much for me. More salt may help with teh fluid too. Maybe take a look in the recipes section for some ideas? I've written couple of lists of suggestions in other threads.
Looks like you are avoiding starches, so some ideas are:
honey
dates (don't suit everyone)
fudge made wih good ingredients.
condensed milk, sweetened or not
brigadeiros or chocolate sauce or other things made with condensed milk, or condensed milk added to coffee.
Jellies made with juice, sugar, gelatine

 

[OJ15]

Cheers Tara.

I'll try upping my sugar and salt intake as well as adding condensed milk to coffee. Should give me another 6-700 cals. I also eat good quality gummy bears (without too many additives) regularly.

Btw, I messed up when I said I drink a gallon of liquids a day. I probably average around 3 quarts, but still I'm not looking to go any higher. The reason for all these fluids is due to Peat's recommendation of generous amounts of milk, OJ and coffee.

How about adrenal fatigue, especially in relation to thyroid supplementation. Do you think it is irrelevant like Peat and Roddy have said?

-OJ15

Quick update:
Just measured my temp and pulse at 8 (PM) in the evening. Resting pulse was 72, armpit temp was 98.

 

[tara]

Based on reading here, not personal expertise or experience, I'm inclined to go with the idea that for most people if you can get thyroid and nutrition up, you take significant stress of the adrenals - ie you don't constantly keep demanding so much of them. If they were struggling this should help them recover. Maybe there are a few exceptions, but probably nowhere near as many as there are diagnoses of adrenal fatigue.

 

[OJ15]

So, lately my skin seems to have gotten a little more calm. Temps and pulses also have increased a little a long with this.
This could be because of diet fine-tuning, my new dessicated thyroid etc. Either way it is good change, however a new symptom has arisen lately.
My skin seems more dry. My palms especially have gotten rough which I have never experienced before.
Anyone care to guess why this is happening all of a sudden?