A Cancer Therapy By Max Gerson - Selected Parts

[Amazoniac]

 

[Travis]

Score another one for Koch; a DNA microarray study implies that low calcium may be slightly carcinogenic by increasing calcitrol—the most active form of vitamin D which had.. . .

". ..stimulated a pattern of adipocyte gene expression which favored adipocyte proliferation, oxidative and inflammatory stress and visceral adiposity," ―Sun​

It upregulated such genes as:

• Vascular endothelial growth factor by 1.88×
• Insulin-like growth factor 1 receptor by 1.43×

But it decreased aldehyde dehydrogenase by 1.32×, perhaps sparing methylglyoxal.

I'm not sure if I agree with the authors strong tone, but they do cite studies on rats which indicated more weight gain in the isocaloric low-calcium group. I do remember Ray Peat saying about as much in his article "Milk in context: allergies, ecology, and some myths," an observation which he attributes unambiguously to the calcium.

"When I crossed from Russia into Finland, I noticed there were many stores selling a variety of cheeses, and the people were generally slender. [...] The changes I noticed there reminded me of the differences I had seen between Moscow and Helsinki, and I suspect that the differences in calcium intake were partly responsible for the changes of physique." ―Ray Peat​

But with low magnesium, I would imagine you'd run the risk of too much calcium entering the cell. I, and others, had originally attributed the growth-promoting action of prolactin directly to the calcium influx it produced; but after realizing that arachidonic and linoleic acid is released—from the cell membrane receptor—during the very same process, I'm now doubtful. It's true that calcium enters the cell when it's nonvital, but so does sodium. It's probably not the calcium which causes the cell death but the reverse—low ATP levels losing their ability to hold magnesium within the cell. Nonetheless, before-and-after effects are sometimes confused and conflated by biochemists.

High calcium depolymerizes microtubules, a prerequisite for cell mitosis. Taxol, for instance, hyperstabilizes microtubules and completely locks them in the G2 phase of cell division—microtubules must be disassembled for proliferation to occur.

"Whereas microtubules are completely stable at Ca²⁺ concentrations below 1 μM, Ca²⁺ at greater than 1–4 μM induces microtubule disassembly that begins in the cell periphery and proceeds towards the cell center. [...] Higher (millimolar) Ca²⁺ concentration results in rapid destruction of microtubules. Of other divalent cations, only Sr²⁺ has a slight depolymerizing effect, whereas millimolar Ba²⁺, Mg²⁺, or Mn²⁺ is ineffective." ―Schliwa​

So you have that, a situation in which calcium can be seen both as a cancerostatic and as a carcinogen. Perhaps the carcinogenic effects can be attributed soley to intracellular calcium, and the cancerostatic effects to the downstream hormonal effects resulting from high Ca²⁺—such as lower parathyroid hormone and calcitriol ( Sun, 2008).

[1] Sun, Xiaocun, Kristin L. Morris, and Michael B. Zemel. "Role of calcitriol and cortisol on human adipocyte proliferation and oxidative and inflammatory stress: a microarray study." Journal of nutrigenetics and nutrigenomics 1.1-2 (2008): 30-48.
[2] Schliwa, Manfred, et al. "Calcium lability of cytoplasmic microtubules and its modulation by microtubule-associated proteins." Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 78.2 (1981): 1037-1041.​

 

[Amazoniac]

http://gerson-research.org/publications/

Dietary considerations in malignant neoplastic diesease - A preliminary report​

 

[Travis]

Nice find. Have you even seen this?

• Hildenbrand, G. L. G., et al. "5-year survival rates of melanoma patients treated by diet therapy after the manner of Gerson." Alt Ther Health. Med 1.4 (1995): 29-37.

"Results. A 100% 5-year survival rate for stage I and II melanoma patients in the Gerson system (n = 14) compares favorably to the 79% 5-year rate found by Balch in a recent meta-analysis, but due to extremely low early-stage recruitment, the sample is far too small for statistical significance (2 = 2.56, P = 0.109). An 82% 5-year survival rate was achieved in stage IIIA melanoma patients (any T N1 M0) in the Gerson system (n = 17). Seen in contrast to a 39% 5-year rate published by the American Society for same-stage patients of the Fachklinik Hornheide (n = 103), those in the Gerson system benefited from a 110% greater (.43 difference in means) survival advantage (2 = 9.48 with 1 degree freedom, P = 0.002, Power = 0.887). Comparison of 5-year survival rates for all T4b, N1, and N2 (stages IIIA + IIIB) patients of the Fachklinik Hornheide (41%, n = 134) with those of CHIPSA (70%, n = 33) reveals a 71% greater (.29 difference in means) survival advantage (2 = 7.62 with 1 degree freedom, P = 0.006, Power = 0.802). Because the majority of Gerson-treated stage IV survivors had documentation of only lymphatic, skin, and subcutaneous metastases (no deep internal disease), they were categorized separately from those with visceral metastases. Analysis of stage IV is divided into IVA (metastases limited to skin, lymph, and subcutaneous tissue) and IVB (visceral metastases). In stage IVA (any T, any N, M1- only), Gerson patients achieved a 39% 5-year survival rate (n = 18) which is considerably higher (.33 difference in means) than the 6% 5-year rate (n = 194) of the Eastern Cooperative Oncology Group (2 = 19.3 with 1 degree freedom, P < 0.0001, Power = 0.997). The majority of IVB patients were suffering very advanced disease on admission to the Gerson program." ―Hildenbrand
​

These are good rates, but not perfect. I think if he would have teamed-up with Pauling, Szent-Györgi, and a psychic lady to channel Ray Peat in the future, he could have got a perfect 100%. There is slight room for improvement if just one patient is lost:

Medication

The patient recieves in addition the following substances:

Dicalcium phosphate with Viosterol, 6 tablets a day, well chewed.
Niacin, 50 mg. 8 to 10 times a day, after meals or juices, dissolved on the tongue. In severe cases we start with one tablet every hour, day and night for few weeks and then repeat this for three days in intervals of one week and during the flare-ups, but patients are not to be disturbed whe [sic] asleep.

• This does seem to be the most useful B vitamin, perhaps through metabolizing homocysteine? You'd even think that this could lower methionine in general, and its downstream polyamines, through mass action—or a sort-of enzymatic Le Chaltier's Principle.

Lubile (dried powdered bile form young animals) or Desicol, 2 capsules 4 to 5 times a day — after the first half of the special soup or juice.
Liver powder with iron, 1 capsule 3 times a day.

• Sounds like Gerson is advocating some inorganic iron (oxide, sulfate, glycinate, citrate, ect.) in excess of what you'd get in the root vegetables (leeks, beets, carrots) he's also recommending—in addition to the iron nested in the porphyrin ring [1] of heme (from the liver and 'powdered bile.') Although not Peat friendly for long-term consumption, consumption of this might not be especially carcinogenic. I wonder what his rationale is?

Vitamin A & D capsules, concentrated; twice 2 capsules.
Liver injections, crude liver extract (Lilly), 10 units per 10cc, 2 cc intramuscularly daily.

• I would imagine he's using beef liver extract. I hope the cows were screened beforehand for hepatitis B . . . and perhaps interviewed to rule-out intravenous drug use, high-risk sexual behaviour, and chronic alcohol consumption.

After six weeks, Dicalcium Phosphate with Viosterol has to be changed to 6 teaspoons of Phosphorous Compound, which is the same composition without Viosterol. In severe cases, we add at the beginning one teaspoon of Phosphorus Compound to each glass of juice for a few weeks in addition to the Dicalcium Phosphate.

• Viosterol is vitamin D₂.

No other medication should be used.

​

Forbidden:

Nicotine, salt, sodium bicarbonate and other sodium compounds, alcohol, coffee, tea, cocoa, chocolate, spices with certain exceptions, pickles, smoked fish, sausages; all canned, preserved and bottled foods; white flour, refined sugar, candies, cakes, ice-cream, butter, all animal and vegetable fats, nuts.

• This seems like a good list except for the nicotine and coffee restrition. My cancer therapy actually recommends these to destroy the tumor with Schizophrenic Nerve Power™.

​

Stage One: necessary daily

Oatmeal, at least twice daily, milled without bleaching and with no milk or cream, cooked in water, served with brown sugar or fresh or stewed fruit.

• This doesn't sound constructive. Not only that, it sounds painful. Perhaps this was originally listed under the "Punishment" section but had got misplaced by Charlotte along with the sentence "No salad oil or other oil or fat."

Albert Szent-Györgi, Paul Thornally, and Manju Ray Might also Add:

Glyoxylase I inhibitors such as lapachol, baicalein, myricetin, and hinikitiol should be used to raise intracellular methylglyoxal levels by inhibiting the enzyme which destroys it. Two grams of L-threonine should be consumed daily to provide the most efficient substrate for methylglyoxal biosynthesis (threonine ⟶ aminoacetone ⟶ methylglyoxal).

​

[1] There's a rule that you cannot even mention the word "porphyrin" without citing David Dolphin (see IUPAC §22).
[2] Dolphin, David, ed. The Porphyrins V7: Biochemistry. Elsevier, 2012.
[3] Paine III, John B., and David Dolphin. "5-Unsubstituted 2-pyrrolecarboxaldehydes for porphyrin synthesis and the cyanovinyl protecting group." The Journal of Organic Chemistry53.12 (1988): 2787-2795.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I think this diet is a bit like cooking. You can’t tell what some of the ingredients do and whether they really help or not. Some of it may be superstitious or just because it’s been done that way.

If I was following it I’d do non fat milk, fruits, fruit juice, a bit of liver, cooked veggies...oh wait, that’s the Peat inspired diet...

 

[Travis]

I think this diet is a bit like cooking. You can’t tell what some of the ingredients do and whether they really help or not. Some of it may be superstitious or just because it’s been done that way.

If I was following it I’d do non fat milk, fruits, fruit juice, a bit of liver, cooked veggies...oh wait, that’s the Peat inspired diet...

Gerson did add milk later-on, and so did Herbert Shelton (but not Ehret or Koch). These people are great, and I think that raw veganism is a good place to start (but even Ehret would admit that cooked leaves aren't really bad).

But then there was the whole Koch and Szent-Györgi discovery of methylglyoxal, so powerful it seemed that it helped give insight into cancer itself—it almost defined cancer, along with polyamines: growth molecules which methylglyoxal actively counters and inhibits.

• Ray Peat on Polyamines: Meat physiology, stress, and degenerative physiology
  • "The polyamines are increased in cancers, and therapies to block their formation are able to stop the growth of various cancers, including prostate, bowel, and breast cancer. Metabolites of the polyamines in the urine appear to be useful as indicators of cancer and other diseases." ―Ray Peat
• William Koch on Polyamines and Homocysteine: THE DR. KOCH CONCEPT
  • "The initiating carcinogen is described by Dr. Koch as quite often a bacterial, nitrogenous product, amines and mercaptans, sulfydryl compounds that are easily dehydrated to form a free radical [homocysteine] that adds to one of the atomic groups of the energy producing and energy accepting mechanisms." ―William Koch
    • Methionine is the only thing that can become a polyamine (through ornithine) and homocysteine (demethylation). This is probably why even less that 1% dietary increase of this amino acids reduces the lifespan of rats between 35- and 40%.⁽¹⁾⁽²⁾

I would take the best of both schools and combine (with Peat-inspired modifications), forming the nonferrous and PUFA-depleted Ehret–Koch–Szent-Györgi–Peat–Gerson Cancer Diet!

Allowed:

Raw pineapples, apples, pears, lychees, dragonfruit, durian, watermelon (seeded), grapes (seeded), blueberries, papaya, raspberries.

Raw kale, spinach, lettuce, arugula.

Coconut.
​

Disallowed:

Everything else.
​

Medication:

Transdermal vitamin D₃ (2,000·IU/d) or sun, niacin (200·mg/d), L-threonine (1·g/d), Scutellaria lateriflora and Pau d'Arco tea all day—every day.
​

(1) Orentreich, Norman, et al. "Low methionine ingestion by rats extends life span." The Journal of nutrition 123.2 (1993): 269.
(2) Richie, JOHN P., et al. "Methionine restriction increases blood glutathione and longevity in F344 rats." The FASEB Journal 8.15 (1994): 1302-1307.

 

[Wagner83]

I would take the best of both schools and combine (with Peat-inspired modifications), forming the nonferrous and PUFA-depleted Ehret–Szent-Györgi–Peat–Gerson Cancer Diet!

Allowed:

Raw pineapples, apples, pears, lychees, dragonfruit, durian, watermelon (seeded), grapes (seeded), blueberries, papaya, raspberries.

Raw kale, spinach, lettuce, arugula.

Coconut.
​

Disallowed:

Everything else.
​

Medication:

Vitamin D₃ (1,000IU/d), niacin (200mg/d), Scutellaria lateriflora and Pau d'Arco tea all day—every day.
​

Media:

Chuck Norris videos for inspiration.​

Why do you think we don't need any proteins? How does the body makes up for this lack of protein? You said before nitrogen balance was maintained with less proteins, and that we don't know exactly what is in fruit, but since we don't know how do you decide there's enough.

Thanks for the link.

"Chuck Norris beat the sun in a staring contest."
Talk about sungazing.

"Chuck Norris makes onions cry".

 

[Amazoniac]

Medication:

Transdermal vitamin D₃ (2,000·IU/d) or sun, niacin (200·mg/d), L-threonine (1·g/d), Scutellaria lateriflora and Pau d'Arco tea all day—every day.

Travisord, how much niacinamide one can take before it starts to compromise the person? And what's your opinion on the different forms?

 

[Travis]

Travisord, how much niacinamide one can take before it starts to compromise the person? And what's your opinion on the different forms?

Okay, you got me. That was the only recommendation that I threw out there mindlessly. All the rest of it I could defend for hours. (But thanks for that study, I do enjoy reading about methylation.)

I threw it out there out of respect for Abram Hoffer, Linus Pauling, and Max Gerson; but after thinking a second about which B-vitamin would be the best for cancer, I would vote for pyroxidal (B₆). This B-vitamin is a cofactor for the enzymes which actually annihilate homocysteine. Upregulating this pathway would not only lower homocysteine, but could lower methionine levels through mass action (Le Chatlier, 1888).

But Hoffer did live quite long (92·y + 5·mo), but so did Szent-Györgyi (93·y + 1·mo) who took less niacin and more methylglyoxal. And Linus Pauling showed that better could be achieved vitamin C alone (93·y + 7·mo), and an unknown amount of niacin. Linus Pauling would would have undoubtedly lived longer if the Nobel Committee would have stopped teasing him about his DNA triple [sic] helix model.⁽²⁾

(1) Le Châtelier, Henry Louis. "Chemical equilibrium." Ann. Mines 13 (1888): 157.
(2) Pauling, Linus, and Robert B. Corey. "A proposed structure for the nucleic acids." Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences39.2 (1953): 84-97.

 

[Wagner83]

Sorry for polluting the thread but I have to add a last one:

"M.C. Hammer learned the hard way that Chuck Norris can touch this."

 

[Amazoniac]

Okay, you got me. That was the only recommendation that I threw out there mindlessly. All the rest of it I could defend for hours. (But thanks for that study, I do enjoy reading about methylation.)

I threw it out there out of respect for Abram Hoffer, Linus Pauling, and Max Gerson; but after thinking a second about which B-vitamin would be the best for cancer, I would vote for pyroxidal (B₆). This B-vitamin is a cofactor for the enzymes which actually annihilate homocysteine. Upregulating this pathway would not only lower homocysteine, but could lower methionine levels through mass action (Le Chatlier, 1888).

But Hoffer did live quite long (92·y + 5·mo), but so did Szent-Györgyi (93·y + 1·mo) who took less niacin and more methylglyoxal. And Linus Pauling showed that better could be achieved vitamin C alone (93·y + 7·mo), and an unknown amount of niacin. Linus Pauling would would have undoubtedly lived longer if the Nobel Committee would have stopped teasing him about his DNA triple [sic] helix model.⁽²⁾

(1) Le Châtelier, Henry Louis. "Chemical equilibrium." Ann. Mines 13 (1888): 157.
(2) Pauling, Linus, and Robert B. Corey. "A proposed structure for the nucleic acids." Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences39.2 (1953): 84-97.

Actually from what I read I would still stick to niacin without question because of its ability to restore NAD levels. It's no doubt that Rayzord always mentions it, especially in his cancer articles. With B6 it must be a fine balancing act and it should be somewhat challenging to get it right.
Do you have an opinion on the different NAD precursors?

 

[Amazoniac]

Nicotine, salt, sodium bicarbonate and other sodium compounds, alcohol, coffee, tea, cocoa, chocolate, spices with certain exceptions, pickles, smoked fish, sausages; all canned, preserved and bottled foods; white flour, refined sugar, candies, cakes, ice-cream, butter, all animal and vegetable fats, nuts.

Spoiler: Well, well, well..

 

[Travis]

Why do you think we don't need any proteins? How does the body makes up for this lack of protein? You said before nitrogen balance was maintained with less proteins, and that we don't know exactly what is in fruit, but since we don't know how do you decide there's enough.

Every whole food has protein.

Many studies show nitrogen balance at around 33 grams per day, and you can get there with fruit and leaves. This is, in fact, all that gorillas eat and they are quite massive.

As such a low calorie food, I'd be almost certain that kale or spinach has more protein per calorie than nearly anything.

To get 33 grams of protein per day, you'd have to eat about one pound of leaves and as much fruit as you'd like. One pound is voluminous, but if you see it steamed you'll notice that it takes-up about as much space as a grapefruit. It's quite easy to find room in your belly for this, especially considering that it'd be only ~250 Cal.

That would be about 14 grams right there—with another fifteen from fruit (easy) would make 29. A little coconut here and there would quickly get you over 33 grams without much PUFA, exogenous hormones, or excessive methionine—important considerations in cancer.

You will notice that Max Gerson disallowed all nuts, so it's no worse in that respect than what Max Gerson recommended (and look how well that worked; pretty good, if I would say). People like Arnold Ehret lived for decades eating like this, and so do millions of animals and perhaps our distant ancesters—there was a time before tools and fire, where drinking cow's milk would have been quite the task (probably only even attempted by Tom Green's ancestors).

 

[Travis]

"M.C. Hammer learned the hard way that Chuck Norris can touch this."

That's a good one. I'm starting to wonder who comes-up with these? If I ever think of a good one myself, I'll submit it to that website (a real challenge, since apparently thousands of hours have already been spent working on just this.)

I have to recommend this article here that @Amazoniac had originally posted:

• Tian, Yan-Jie, et al. "Excess nicotinamide increases plasma serotonin and histamine levels." Acta Physiologica Sinica 65.1 (2013): 33-38.

It's very short, yet profound. The simple consumption of niacinamide.. . .

• Mopped-up methyl groups, ostensibly from betaine and choline which were likewise decreased.
• Nearly doubled plasma serotonin by directing tryptophan synthesis away from the kyneurenine pathway.
• Increased histamine by about 33%.
• Mentions data from this, and his other, study showing that this niacin-induced methyl-sponge effect raises norepinephrine as much as it lowers epinephrine.

He also presents a nice line of argument implicating increased serotonin from excessive niacin consumption with autism. He explains the sex differential by mentioning the fact that boys genetically have lower monoaminoxidase activity, and presents citations claiming proof of excessive urinary niacin, and perhaps metabolites thereof, in autistic kids. He doesn't mention that methylated niacin metabolite N-methyl-2-pyridone-5-carboxamide could be a cause in autism, specifically its precursor N-methylnicotinamide (in addition to serotonin), but that could be something to look into. After five hours it's levels were still elevated fourfold over baseline and it's planar N-methyl ring structure is suggestive of neuroactivity.

I had always thought that autism was mostly β-casomorphin, but perhaps serotonin could be a cause in many cases. Many people do mention aggressive behaviour, which is unusual for an opiate.

 

[ecstatichamster]

That's a good one. I'm starting to wonder who comes-up with these? If I ever think of a good one myself, I'll submit it to that website (a real challenge, since apparently thousands of hours have already been spent working on just this.)

I have to recommend this article here that @Amazoniac had originally posted:

• Tian, Yan-Jie, et al. "Excess nicotinamide increases plasma serotonin and histamine levels." Acta Physiologica Sinica 65.1 (2013): 33-38.

It's very short, yet profound. The simple consumption of niacinamide.. . .

• Mopped-up methyl groups, ostensibly from betaine and choline which were likewise decreased.
• Nearly doubled plasma serotonin by directing tryptophan synthesis away from the kyneurenine pathway.
• Increased histamine by about 33%.
• Mentions data from this, and his other, study showing that this niacin-induced methyl-sponge effect raises norepinephrine as much as it lowers epinephrine.

He also presents a nice line of argument implicating increased serotonin from excessive niacin consumption with autism. He explains the sex differential by mentioning the fact that boys genetically have lower monoaminoxidase activity, and presents citations claiming proof of excessive urinary niacin, and perhaps metabolites thereof, in autistic kids. He doesn't mention that methylated niacin metabolite N-methyl-2-pyridone-5-carboxamide could be a cause in autism (in addition to serotonin), but that could be something to look into. After five hours it's levels were still elevated fourfold over baseline and it's planar N-methyl ring structure is suggestive of neuroactivity.

I had always thought that autism was mostly β-casomorphin, but perhaps serotonin could be a cause in many cases. Many people do mention aggressive behaviour, which is unusual for an opiate.

A relative has Glaucoma and there are studies suggesting high consumption of niacinamide can lower the pressures. Not sure it’s a bad thing. I think it has many benefits when used as a drug in non-physiological quantities.

 

[Amazoniac]

And I highly recommend this one:
Co-administration of equimolar doses of betaine may alleviate the hepatotoxic risk associated with niacin therapy

--
http://suppversity.blogspot.com.br/2012/09/trimethylglycine-aka-betaine-sets.html

 

[meatbag]

Every whole food has protein.

Many studies show nitrogen balance at around 33 grams per day, and you can get there with fruit and leaves. This is, in fact, all that gorillas eat and they are quite massive.

As such a low calorie food, I'd be almost certain that kale or spinach has more protein per calorie than nearly anything.

To get 33 grams of protein per day, you'd have to eat about one pound of leaves and as much fruit as you'd like. One pound is voluminous, but if you see it steamed you'll notice that it takes-up about as much space as a grapefruit. It's quite easy to find room in your belly for this, especially considering that it'd be only ~250 Cal.

That would be about 14 grams right there—with another fifteen from fruit (easy) would make 29. A little coconut here and there would quickly get you over 33 grams without much PUFA, exogenous hormones, or excessive methionine—important considerations in cancer.

You will notice that Max Gerson disallowed all nuts, so it's no worse in that respect than what Max Gerson recommended (and look how well that worked; pretty good, if I would say). People like Arnold Ehret lived for decades eating like this, and so do millions of animals and perhaps our distant ancesters—there was a time before tools and fire, where drinking cow's milk would have been quite the task (probably only even attempted by Tom Green's ancestors).

I'm not sure about the gorillas, they seem to get most of their energy from fermentation, and actually do take in a fair amount of protein if this study is correct;

"
Assuming that the macronutrient profile of these foods was
reflective of the whole gorilla diet and that dietary fiber contributed 6.28 kJ/g (1.5 kcal/g), then the gorilla diet
would provide 810 kJ (194 kcal) metabolizable energy per 100 g dry weight. The macronutrient profile of this diet
would be as follows: 2.5% energy as fat, 24.3% protein, 15.8% available carbohydrate, with potentially 57.3% of
metabolizable energy from short-chain fatty acids (SCFA) derived from colonic fermentation of fiber. Gorillas would
therefore obtain considerable energy through fiber fermentation. We suggest that humans also evolved consuming
similar high foliage, high fiber diets, which were low in fat and dietary cholesterol. The macronutrient and fiber
profile of the gorilla diet is one in which the colon is likely to play a major role in overall nutrition.
"
~The Western Lowland Gorilla Diet Has Implications for the Health of Humans and Other Hominoids

I have noticed that bonobos and chimps seems to squeeze the juice out of whatever fruit their eating, and then discard the pulp. I remember them doing something funny with putting things in water before they ate them but I can't find the source;

"
NATURAL DIET: The main part of the diet is plant material, particularly fruits, but also young leaves, seeds, stalks, shoots and stems, pith, bark and flowers. Most of the diet comes from arboreal sources (trees and lianas), but terrestrial herbaceous vegetation, particularly Mushrooms are eaten, as well as honey, some invertebrates (worms, termites, ants, millipedes, snails) and some vertebrates. In different bonobo populations, the vertebrates eaten differ: at Wamba, flying squirrels; at Lomako, duikers (Cephalophus spp.) and other species (e.g. snake, shrew); in the Lilungu-Lokofe region, fruit bats (Eidolon sp.) and flying squirrels. To date, primates have been confirmed as part of the diet only at Lui Kotale, Salonge National Park, with prey including adult duikers, Galago demidovii, unidentified rodents, Lophocebus aterrimus - Black mangabey, Cercopithecus ascanius - Schmidt's guenon (redtail) and Cercopithecus wolfi - Wolf's guenon; an unsuccessful hunt targeting Piliocolobus sp. - Red colobus was observed.. Additionally, one instance of cannibalism has been reported in bonobos at Lui Kotale after a 2.5-year-old infant died of unknown causes.

QUANTITY EATEN: Fruits make up most of the diet (80% or more), with seeds perhaps up to 5% and leaves and other fibrous foods most of the rest of the diet. Animal material is only a very small percentage of the diet.
"
~Bonobo Pan paniscus - Natural Diet (Literature Reports)

Also since I did a project on them I'll go ahead and tell everyone that they aren't as sex crazed as they're made out to be and that phenomenoa seems to be mostly observed in captivity (although they are very promiscuous and somewhat bisexual, just the amount is way overblown). And although they do seem very peaceful they do in fact kill each other and other chimps from time to time, unfortunately. It's interesting but the main theory for why they differ so much behavioularly from chimpazee's is attributed to the fact that they don't have to compete with gorillas for food on the forest floor where as Chimpanzees who live on the other side of the river do. This means Bonobos have access to food year round and chimps sometimes don't, fits in pretty nice with the theories outlined in that podcast with Danny Roddy and various threads on the forum and from Señor Peat;


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdF33V5kQr8
So stress makes the chimps more selfish and violent than the bonobos

 

[Travis]

I'm not sure about the gorillas, they seem to get most of their energy from fermentation, and actually do take in a fair amount of protein if this study is correct; [...]

Thanks for pointing-out how much protein plants can have. Most people are not used to eating so much, but coconut seems to be a safe and more concentrated source.

I could eat two pounds of kale per day, but it would cost $9 for just that (~500·Cal, 28·g·protein) and be kinda boring; just one pound will get a person over the calcium RDA without dairy (as well as such things as vitamin A, folate, ect...). Coconut-stuffed dates with coffee is like 1500·Cal of awesomeness when I wake-up in the morning afternoon.

Getting over 40 grams per day just raw is easy with coconut, otherwise it seems you'd have too eat over a pound of leaves or some other plant material. I hear potatoes are somewhat high but I don't eat much cooked starch. I agree with Ehret on that.

That title of the video, "The Cold War in Biology," reminds me of that book of the same title:

• Lindegren, Carl Clarence. The cold war in biology. Planarian Press, 1966.

I still haven't read it though.

 

[Travis]

A relative has Glaucoma and there are studies suggesting high consumption of niacinamide can lower the pressures. Not sure it’s a bad thing. I think it has many benefits when used as a drug in non-physiological quantities.

I think niacin could be why Red Bull™ does what it does to me. I can drink two liters of coffee without much affect, and 1000·Cal of dates in less than ten minutes, but one Red Bull™ throws me off. This study here shows that niacin is essentially a methyl sponge, drawing it out of the body.

• Sun, Wu-Ping, et al. "Excess nicotinamide inhibits methylation-mediated degradation of catecholamines in normotensives and hypertensives." Hypertension Research 35.2 (2012): 180-185.
• 
  
• 

Which causes a shift from the methylated catecholamines to the more stimulatory noremethylated ones and raises homocysteine through methyl depletion.

This can be good, I think, for some people; but there needs to be enough pyrixidine (B₆) to get rid of the excessive homocysteine. A high-methionine diet with lots of niacinamide could theoretically cause homocysteine excess, most certainly a prime biological villain from what I've read about it.

 

[meatbag]

Thanks for pointing-out how much protein plants can have. Most people are not used to eating so much, but coconut seems to be a safe and more concentrated source.

I could eat two pounds of kale per day, but it would cost $9 for just that (~500·Cal, 28·g·protein) and be kinda boring; just one pound will get a person over the calcium RDA without dairy (as well as such things as vitamin A, folate, ect...). Coconut-stuffed dates with coffee is like 1500·Cal of awesomeness when I wake-up in the morning afternoon.

Getting over 40 grams per day just raw is easy with coconut, otherwise it seems you'd have too eat over a pound of leaves or some other plant material. I hear potatoes are somewhat high but I don't eat much cooked starch. I agree with Ehret on that.

That title of the video, "The Cold War in Biology," reminds me of that book of the same title:

• Lindegren, Carl Clarence. The cold war in biology. Planarian Press, 1966.

I still haven't read it though.

Yeah I think he called it that after the book, pretty interesting

So you just stuff shredded coconut in the dates? That sounds pretty good! I actually have never had dates, I used to eat apricots and they made me sick and I was worried dates would do the same haha but I might have to try them.

How much fiber to you average? it seems you have a quite a bit but it doesn't bother you. Are you cooking all those leaves? I noticed raw leaves bother me but I handle well cooked no problem. How long have you been eating raw vegan? It seems you are doing very well on it.

Yeah when I saw those values I was very suprised! I wasn't expecting the protein to be higher than the carbohydrate but there you have it. Just looking at gorillas you can tell they are ridiculously talented fermenters; very big stomachs! other apes appear to also have a greater fermintive capacity compared to humans;
(including just because I found it interesting, not really groundbreaking stuff here)
"
Humans are unique, and the human gut is (nearly) unique

Since we will be comparing the gut (digestive system) of humans with other animals, especially primates, it is appropriate to begin with an illustration that provides a comparison.

Milton [1987, p. 102] notes:
When compared to those of most other mammals, the relative proportions of the human gut are unusual (my calculations, using data from Chivers and Hladik [1980], and Hladik [1967]).
"
~Overview of Digestive System Morphology in Primates and Humans