[Non Peat] Undermethylators, Ketogenesis

[tara]

post 114815

post 114814
He's talked about how crappy heavy metals are :)

which would be in modern bone broth as well : )

Peat has recommended not boiling bones too long for broth, because they can be a source of high lead.

 

[Nicholas]

post 114679

That is what ive heard. Low methylation has less chance of cancer. I've heard the main benefit of fasting is lowering methylation as well. Ray has mentioned that methylation is correlated with aging. As we age, we methylate more to make up for the lack of CO2 production.

We need to get things straight here. Methylation is a complex chain of three main pathways. Undermethylating down the transsulfuration pathway PROMOTES organ and brain degeneration. It's not cause, it's effect of aging. Your antioxidants get burned up and you have a higher risk of heart/kidney failure, diabetes, degenerative brain disorders, depending on the ratios of your calcium/glutamate toxicity, angiotensin, arginine vasopressin, red blood cell supply, myelin sheath composition, heart muscle stiffness.

Transsulfuration pathway goes up because oxidative stress goes up with aging. This is not a reason to avoid methylating down this pathway. In fact it is the opposite. Ray even promotes glycine which is key to optimising transsulfuration, and we all know that we support magnesium/P5P/ATP on this forum. Glutathione is absolutely central to your attempts to raise metabolism. Anyone not getting a thyroid boost should work on transsulfuration for a while.

(If you can get hold of the l-serine amino acid it works wonders for kidney health, and reversibly converts to glycine.)

This is not the same pathway as the methionine synthase DNA (cancer) B12/folate pathway which I haven't talked about and don't wish to. Don't mess with it. Focus on your glutathione and magnesium inside red blood cells and mitochondria. Look at the chart. Homocysteine branches off down three ways depending on your ATP. And it will further branch down into ammonia and angiotensin if your total body ATP and glutathione are heavily taxxed, resulting in high cortisol.

Fasting reduces methylation because it promotes mitochondrial biogenesis and therefore NADH enzymes. This is why niacinamide reduces methionine synthase/MTHFR. Vitamin B2 works in opposite direction and promotes this pathway. None of this is relevant to transsulfuration.

Also, the reduction in angiotensin and cortisol with better transsulfuration and magnesium retention reduces blood sugar. Healthy red blood cells 'lock away' both glucose and magnesium through the production, retention and recycling of glutathione. Low blood sugar is far healthier than chronic high blood sugar because it mimics fasting, which limits the methionine synthase pathway and therefore chances of DNA defects.

Taurine in harmony with glutathione then prevents oxidative stress by limiting fatty acid liberation, paving the way for efficient glucose, oxygen, magnesium delivery for ATP production in the red blood cells, while your creatine and carnitine from efficient re-methylation via the BHMT choline pathway (to be optimised after you raise glutathione, taurine and carnitine) and more meat in diet produce ATP by keep the heart pumping strong to direct beta oxidation in the blood stream.

I explain again, Ray supports methylation without directly coining the phrase, because he doesn't want you to promote high cysteine and high DNA transscription. Clearly he understands the pitfalls of his argument style because many here have bought into extremes with no appreciation for context.


Everyone should optimise their transsulfuration pathway, moreso with aging. Then let the carnitine and creatine from a more meat based diet and high glutathione look after your brain and heart. High glutathione means less risk of kidney disease, so you retain zinc, selenium, magnesium, serine, glycine, tyrosine, sodium, the list goes on. Look at how many of those nutrients are pro-Peat.

I find it amazing I am lectured on Ray's studies and articles when I apparently, reading between the lines, know that he supports methylation in this manner. Sugar will not restore ATP in many people and they need to kickstart transsulfuration away from the kidney disease and cortisol/calcium promoting pathway of ammonia.

Same with serotonin. He repeatedly agrees serotonin is an adaptive response to conserve energy. That doesn't mean you go out and drop serotonin to zero or that serotonin is evil. Serotonin is necessary to balance you. Excessive serotonin will reduce metabolism, this is the point of it's increase. Small drops in serotonin are worthwhile to increase the dopamine and noradrenaline pathway, perhaps to help you get out of a rut, e.g. BCAAs. But excessive drops in serotonin can enhance adrenaline and deplete thyroid hormone. Serotonin's relationship to the phenlyphlanine - tyrosine - dopamine - LDOPA - noradrenaline - adrenaline pathway is a tricky one.

Same with PUFA. If you don't like PUFA don't eat PUFA. Why this needs extensive discourse is a complete waste of time. It won't change the production of food. Assuming people wish to boost their energy rather than crusade.

Finally, if you undermethylate in any or all pathways, your risk of high homocysteine and cardiovascular disease is greatly increased. High homocysteine means high oxidative stress, so you run the risk of high cholesterol (strokes etc). Low bioavailable zinc is also a potent cause of high homocysteine due to chronic high blood sugar. Ketogenesis prevents this because a greater metabolism (not the same as liberation) of fatty acids prevents lactic acid, and it also prevents calcium and cortisol toxicity leading to zinc deficiency

This is why you should not discuss hypothyroidism without understanding transsulfuration/glutathione retention and implications for cellular membrane entry of fuels such as cholesterol, fatty acids, oxygen and sugar.

It's important to think of the liver as the logistics warehouse. Goods in - goods out. If your liver is cluttered, the road map and coordination of your organs and your cells are cluttered. This is the basis of degeneration. The haulage industry, red blood cells, become toxic and inefficient, which limits thyroid activity.

so basically, in theory, if you're getting enough GLYCINE, MAGNESIUM, GLUTATHIONE, TAURINE, AND ZINC in the diet then you are methylating down the transsulfuration pathway and not the "methionine synthase DNA (cancer) B12/folate pathway". For as long as i've known, i've always craved onions and garlic....do you think that's a legitimate food source of glutathione or are the cruciferous vegetables better?

I know from the very beginning you've described as the optimal diet to be a bridge of ketogenesis and moderate/selective carb use. How do you believe this applies to Ray Peat's talking about how high protein with moderate carb diets can be beneficial for diabetics?

 

[Agent207]

Kineticz, after all your research, could you recommend a good book or lecture for the basics or starting point to understand this from the roots?

What basic blood test would you advise to check personal current status? whole blood histamine, folate and homocysteine for example?

There are numerous sources that state whey (biologicaly active, non denatured) to raise gluthatione levels:

"Try bioactive whey protein. This is great source of cysteine and the amino acid building blocks for glutathione synthesis. As you know, I am not a big fan of dairy. But this is an exception — with a few warnings. The whey protein MUST be bioactive and made from non-denatured proteins"

 

[halken]

I'm curious kineticz, with that amount protein intake, would this mean you are converting your protein to glucose via gluconeogenesis?

 

[messtafarian]

I gotta say I've tried extremely hard to get this methylation thing, especially since I found out I have one MTHFR polymorphism. I also have the (apparently) double COMT thingy and a couple of detox pathway mutations.

I am not at all better off for knowing this. B vitamins of various types have just as often made me feel worse as better.

Although I suppose now I have an acceptably science-y way to explain why SSRI's turned me into a complete lunatic.

 

[YuraCZ]

post 115013 I gotta say I've tried extremely hard to get this methylation thing, especially since I found out I have one MTHFR polymorphism. I also have the (apparently) double COMT thingy and a couple of detox pathway mutations.

I am not at all better off for knowing this. [highlight=yellow]B vitamins of various types have just as often made me feel worse as better[/highlight].

Although I suppose now I have an acceptably science-y way to explain why SSRI's turned me into a complete lunatic.

It can be also due to heavy metal detox. Undermethylators have high copper for example. So when your liver starts excrete excess of copper, then you will feel worse.. When I started with B vitamins, zinc, MSM, low copper foods etc.. I was literally dying for 2 months lol.. Now when I add hot baths with magnesium I feel much better and my main issue with blood circulation to the legs and from the legs is much better. I'm also on low fat, but I still eat beef, turkey liver(for B vitamins especially folate).. I believe this also helps a lot...

 

[messtafarian]

post 115015

post 115013
It can be also due to heavy metal detox. Undermethylators have high copper for example. So when your liver starts excrete excess of copper, then you will feel worse.. When I started with B vitamins, zinc, MSM, low copper foods etc.. I was literally dying for 2 months lol.. Now when I add hot baths with magnesium I feel much better and my main issue with blood circulation to the legs and from the legs is much better. I'm also on low fat, but I still eat beef, turkey liver(for B vitamins especially folate).. I believe this also helps a lot...

Maybe. I don't know. I started taking a multivitamin with the acceptable types of b vitamins and gave up on supplementing anything else since I got to the point that I had no idea what I was doing anymore. :).

 

[InChristAlone]

post 114679

That is what ive heard. Low methylation has less chance of cancer. I've heard the main benefit of fasting is lowering methylation as well. Ray has mentioned that methylation is correlated with aging. As we age, we methylate more to make up for the lack of CO2 production.

We need to get things straight here. Methylation is a complex chain of three main pathways. Undermethylating down the transsulfuration pathway PROMOTES organ and brain degeneration. It's not cause, it's effect of aging. Your antioxidants get burned up and you have a higher risk of heart/kidney failure, diabetes, degenerative brain disorders, depending on the ratios of your calcium/glutamate toxicity, angiotensin, arginine vasopressin, red blood cell supply, myelin sheath composition, heart muscle stiffness.

Transsulfuration pathway goes up because oxidative stress goes up with aging. This is not a reason to avoid methylating down this pathway. In fact it is the opposite. Ray even promotes glycine which is key to optimising transsulfuration, and we all know that we support magnesium/P5P/ATP on this forum. Glutathione is absolutely central to your attempts to raise metabolism. Anyone not getting a thyroid boost should work on transsulfuration for a while.

(If you can get hold of the l-serine amino acid it works wonders for kidney health, and reversibly converts to glycine.)

This is not the same pathway as the methionine synthase DNA (cancer) B12/folate pathway which I haven't talked about and don't wish to. Don't mess with it. Focus on your glutathione and magnesium inside red blood cells and mitochondria. Look at the chart. Homocysteine branches off down three ways depending on your ATP. And it will further branch down into ammonia and angiotensin if your total body ATP and glutathione are heavily taxxed, resulting in high cortisol.

Fasting reduces methylation because it promotes mitochondrial biogenesis and therefore NADH enzymes. This is why niacinamide reduces methionine synthase/MTHFR. Vitamin B2 works in opposite direction and promotes this pathway. None of this is relevant to transsulfuration.

Also, the reduction in angiotensin and cortisol with better transsulfuration and magnesium retention reduces blood sugar. Healthy red blood cells 'lock away' both glucose and magnesium through the production, retention and recycling of glutathione. [highlight=yellow]Low blood sugar is far healthier than chronic high blood sugar because it mimics fasting[/highlight], which limits the methionine synthase pathway and therefore chances of DNA defects.

Taurine in harmony with glutathione then prevents oxidative stress by limiting fatty acid liberation, paving the way for efficient glucose, oxygen, magnesium delivery for ATP production in the red blood cells, while your creatine and carnitine from efficient re-methylation via the BHMT choline pathway (to be optimised after you raise glutathione, taurine and carnitine) and more meat in diet produce ATP by keep the heart pumping strong to direct beta oxidation in the blood stream.

I explain again, Ray supports methylation without directly coining the phrase, because he doesn't want you to promote high cysteine and high DNA transscription. Clearly he understands the pitfalls of his argument style because many here have bought into extremes with no appreciation for context.


Everyone should optimise their transsulfuration pathway, moreso with aging. Then let the carnitine and creatine from a more meat based diet and high glutathione look after your brain and heart. High glutathione means less risk of kidney disease, so you retain zinc, selenium, magnesium, serine, glycine, tyrosine, sodium, the list goes on. Look at how many of those nutrients are pro-Peat.

I find it amazing I am lectured on Ray's studies and articles when I apparently, reading between the lines, know that he supports methylation in this manner. Sugar will not restore ATP in many people and they need to kickstart transsulfuration away from the kidney disease and cortisol/calcium promoting pathway of ammonia.

Same with serotonin. He repeatedly agrees serotonin is an adaptive response to conserve energy. That doesn't mean you go out and drop serotonin to zero or that serotonin is evil. Serotonin is necessary to balance you. Excessive serotonin will reduce metabolism, this is the point of it's increase. Small drops in serotonin are worthwhile to increase the dopamine and noradrenaline pathway, perhaps to help you get out of a rut, e.g. BCAAs. But excessive drops in serotonin can enhance adrenaline and deplete thyroid hormone. Serotonin's relationship to the phenlyphlanine - tyrosine - dopamine - LDOPA - noradrenaline - adrenaline pathway is a tricky one.

Same with PUFA. If you don't like PUFA don't eat PUFA. Why this needs extensive discourse is a complete waste of time. It won't change the production of food. Assuming people wish to boost their energy rather than crusade.

Finally, if you undermethylate in any or all pathways, your risk of high homocysteine and cardiovascular disease is greatly increased. High homocysteine means high oxidative stress, so you run the risk of high cholesterol (strokes etc). Low bioavailable zinc is also a potent cause of high homocysteine due to chronic high blood sugar. Ketogenesis prevents this because a greater metabolism (not the same as liberation) of fatty acids prevents lactic acid, and it also prevents calcium and cortisol toxicity leading to zinc deficiency

This is why you should not discuss hypothyroidism without understanding transsulfuration/glutathione retention and implications for cellular membrane entry of fuels such as cholesterol, fatty acids, oxygen and sugar.

It's important to think of the liver as the logistics warehouse. Goods in - goods out. If your liver is cluttered, the road map and coordination of your organs and your cells are cluttered. This is the basis of degeneration. The haulage industry, red blood cells, become toxic and inefficient, which limits thyroid activity.

I'd like to know why low blood sugar is better? Mine is always below 110 usually less than 100 beginning of day and I get adrenaline rushes... I am not sure how this is healthier? It makes me feel like crap. I tried magnesium and P5P last night, woke up at 3 am with a panic attack solved by taking sugar. So adrenaline depletes thyroid? When I try taking thyroid either it relaxes me or causes insomnia. This is all soooooooooo complex. Makes my head spin and probably causes more stress trying to figure it out! I applaud your efforts and research and doing what works for you.

 

[YuraCZ]

I'm wondering which role has L lysine and L arginine. Their ratio, if NO is good etc.. As bodybuilders. We always used extra arginine before or even after workout around 5-10g for better pump, blood flow and it worked really good.. But now as I have ****88 up connective tissue and especially cardiovascular system. Probably due to very high homocysteine.. Is beneficial take some extra L lysine for rebuilding strong arterys, blood vessels, capillaries.. ?

 

[Giraffe]

Caller: Hello? I'm here. I’m from Southern Humboldt. Did you say that l-arginine was bad? I'd heard that was supposed to be good for you but I'm not sure what it's supposed to do?
HD: Dr Peat, arginine you mentioned a minute ago..
Caller: ...And is there a difference between arginine and l-arginine?
RP: Yes the internet is just swamped with advertisements for ways to supplement arginine; l-arginine is just the natural amino acid, but if you get more than you need, it will increase your tendency to over-produce nitric oxide and too much tryptophan happens to boost that. And possibly by increasing serotonin but it's very important to keep your amino acids in a good balance, especially avoiding too much cysteine, tryptophan, methionine and arginine.
Caller: So you don't recommend taking an l-arginine supplement?
RP: No, I think it's very dangerous.
Caller: Ohhhh! OK. Now did you say that Viagra is bad for you because it's made out of this nitric oxide stuff?
RP: It inhibits an enzyme that is supposed to inactivate a substance made by the production of nitric oxide. Nitric oxide starts a chain reaction and Viagra keeps that chain reaction going and in the process it ends up systemically increasing, not only the effect of nitric oxide but in some situations the level of nitric oxide so it probably is increasing the aging process basically in brain, heart, pancreas, everywhere you get an excess of nitric oxide.
Caller: But they say that having sex is good for you, if you can't have sex that's not so great either...I mean is it a matter of moderation, of not using it too often, can it be OK if you use some of it? I mean I don't know I'm not a man.
RP: Well its one of the essential amino acids, and so if you eat any good, high quality protein, even potatoes, milk, cheese you're going to get all the arginine you need.

Nitric Oxide, KMUD 2014

 

[lexis]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24012088

Consumption of a low-carbohydrate and high-fat diet (the ketogenic diet) exaggerates biotin deficiency in mice.

 

[halken]

In mice.

 

[michael94]

Wouldn't liver, eggs, milk, and maybe some kale broth be a great source of methylation materials? These are all things peat has recommended highly and most students of his consume regularly. I'm still a bit lost as to why ketogenesis is necessary or helpful at all if you are keeping fatty acid liberation in check

 

[Such_Saturation]

post 115100This is all soooooooooo complex

That's the first warning sign for me

 

[tara]

post 116623

post 115100This is all soooooooooo complex

That's the first warning sign for me

This is what OP calls

post 114355 back to basics.

 

[YuraCZ]

It's so sad that it took two years for me to realized that B vitamins deficiency is main reason why I was so ****88 without zero health improvements.. I was always thinking like B complex. Yeah I take B complex where is maybe 5mg per B vit. nice one problem solved. I had no idea for what is each B vit. good for. How much I actually need. If I'm in insane physical and mental stress etc. and once I deplete my body really severely, how much I actually need to restore B vits. in the tissue.. Now I take 300mg B1, 30mg B2, 75mg B6 + I need to order B3, B5 and maybe biotin, PABA and inositol also.. I know that these last three are not essential, since bacteria can produce them. But my digestion is so messed up, that I think these processes are not happening in my gut..

 

[Ulla]

I didn't know about different types of B12
http://www.globalhealingcenter.com/natu ... tamin-b12/

And this:
Are B Vitamin Supplements Causing Your Acne?
http://thelovevitamin.com/15994/b-vitamins-acne/
Further research, however, led me to understand that most B12 supplements are made from cyanocobalamin (as indeed mine were), which is a cheap, synthetic chemical containing cyanide molecules.

Yes – cyanide! These poisonous cyanide molecules must be removed from the body by the liver. One of the liver’s pathways of removal, as many of us are all too aware, is through the skin. Furthermore, the liver can store several years’ worth of B12, making toxicity more possible than the ‘water-soluble’ party-line would have us believe.

This then brings us to B6. The reason it was so detrimental to me, I believe, is because it is known to reduce estrogen levels and increase progesterone. My estrogen levels had been low for some time, and I had long wondered why. Low estrogen levels are often coupled with higher relative testosterone levels, which can mean higher levels of sebum production.


When I read this I immediately throw away my cheap B complex

 

[jyb]

post 116076 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24012088

Consumption of a low-carbohydrate and high-fat diet (the ketogenic diet) exaggerates biotin deficiency in mice.

NB: they used egg whites for their proteins sources. Guess what? Egg whites excess without the yolks are well known to cause biotin problems. And poor animals are being fed poisonous soybean oil diet, I guess we can rarely expect better from a mice study.

 

[Strongbad]

Hi kinetics,

I gotta say I really like what you came up with in this thread. I experienced super accelerated hairloss, high cortisol, adrenal fatigue, lower right abdominal pain, insulin resistance, high weight gain and other issues when switching to default Peaty "diet". High amount of OJ, sugar, raw honey with lots of milk and fair amount of meat with little or no vegetables since Danny Roddy didn't like to consume vegetables due to estrogenic nature of them and high fiber content (I read it somewhere in his e-books).

I do have some questions, though for clarification purposes:

1) Do you still consume coffee/tea after meal since meat diet is high in iron? Or does iron amount no longer matter to you in this "diet" approach?
2) I read somewhere in Peat articles that calcification occurs due to lack of calcium intake, t hus to prevent that you need to consume more calcium. Yet as we get older our calcium density in our bones diminishes. What is your take on this, in the context of avoiding calcium in our diet?
3) Can you please elaborate on what "lean" meat is? Is it organ meat like liver, tripe, heart, kidney? Or muscle meat like ribs, ground meat, tights? Or does it even matter as long as it's meat? Do you have specific preference of the animal, such as beef, chicken, lamb, pork, shrimp, oyster, fish?
4) What's your take on the recent news "viral" a few months ago that overconsumption of meat causes cancer?
5) When you say carb/sugar, does it matter if it's sugar, starch like rice and potatoes, raw honey, fruits, fructose powder? Or it doesn't matter at all and you're simply implying that "sugar" is any carbohydrate that is not vegetables-based?

I know that you focus a lot on supplementation and that it's the fastest way to restore methylation. But I hope that you'd elaborate more on your diet later and what is your diet like in the long run AFTER the methylation is fully restored. For instance, what vegetables you prefer, what meat your eat, what is your morning/lunch/dinner meals like etc. I'd get a better picture of what your diet/nutrition is like with examples.

Another point to note: your 50% meat, 30% vegetables, 20% carbs is very similar to traditional South East Asian diet, with slight variations on percentage: 50% vegetables, 25% rice and fruits and sugar, 25% meat with little oil. They also don't consume milk and sugary food that much, but mostly rice and vegetables especially vegetables.

I don't see what you came up with as anti-Peat. As a matter of fact, it complements very well with Peat's ideas. I've always thought that there's something "missing" in Peatarian diet that causes all these terrible symptoms on me despite the fact that all food I've consumed are Peat-approved and that I've avoided PUFA like a plague.

Super accelerated hairloss is the worst one for me and I never understood why. When I was in low carb I had hairloss but not as much and aggressive as Peating. I also never experienced insulin resistance and adrenal issues with low carb and I looked great in 160lbs body weight.

I look back now and if I were to tweak my low carb diet a little bit by adding some more carbs during fasting period (like before sleeping) and a lot more cooked vegetables then I would have been alright.

moderator edit: replies moved to https://raypeatforum.com/forums/thr...urally-i-feel-like-im-on-brink-of-death.9219/

 

[SQu]

"Agreed ionic magnesium can be taxxing on the digestive system. Oral works ok only with P5P in the same swallow."
P5P didn't do much for me but I recently tried this with mag chloride when addressing my very low mood and it's been working nicely and feels like it's raising dopamine - well-being, less aches.