[Non Peat] Undermethylators, Ketogenesis

[kineticz]

[moderator edit: posts moved from L-lysine - serotonin antagonist]

[moderator note: Most views expressed here by kineticz and a few others are in conflict with Dr. Peat's views.]

Yep. The sodium potassium ATPase pumps keep things operating smoothly.

Increase sodium to minimise aldosterone, which should naturally increase progesterone stores, and increase magnesium to keep calcium extracellular.

I have difficultly thinking that taking calcium is necessary, due to the reaction of the kidneys which reduce vitamin D to ensure that calcium is lowered.

I think that minimising cortisol and taking a good K2 supplement is the best way to limit calcium and osteoporosis.


High cortisol, calcium, glutamate, and oxidized fatty acids are a cells worst enemy.

Keep the myelin sheath happy in the brain and generally makes ATP a whole lot more likely in the heart, kidneys, lungs, muscles and liver. When glutamate signal is high in the brain the whole system switches to angiotensin and cortisol to sustain energy, as opposed to the methylation of creatine, carnitine, and glutathione and taurine detoxification.

I know Peat is anti-fatty acids but I've had really good results from this:

http://www.doctormyhill.co.uk/wiki/Phos ... d_exchange

The myelin sheath is made up mostly of these fats. Healthy membranes means the ion pumps and bundles of nutrients are retained.

 

[kineticz]

post 112775

post 112772 as opposed to the methylation of creatine, carnitine, and glutathione and taurine detoxification.

Can you explain this further please? i can't figure out what "methylation" is.

Methylation occurs in the liver and is driven by several minerals and mostly by ATP.

It produces antioxidants and pro-heart nutrients such as creatine and carnitine. It renews cell DNA and encourages more DNA expression. Ray suggests that overmethylating is harmful due to excessive incomplete DNA.

But a person can, and more commonly does, undermethylate, resulting in increased angiotensin and cortisol. Lowered creatine and carnitine cause the heart to overwork as the kidneys and lungs angiotensin causes vasoconstriction and reduced oxygenated blood supply, so the liver has trouble clearing out toxins.

In this situation calcium and glutamate accumulate in the brain as it consumes 20% of the body's energy but only has 2% mitochondria to produce it's own energy. So the kidneys vasoconstrict and become damaged by the accumulation of calcium which is excitotoxic to cells.

Undermethylation is ultimately due to low ATP and high calcium toxicity, as with most degenerative diseases. Minerals like zinc, P5P, and magnesium are important for methylation.

But the most challenging is breaking the ATP stalemate where the kidneys and heart are overworked to supply energy to the glutamate in the brain, while the liver is stuck in the middle with a build up of toxins and a low overall metabolic rate which calcifies the kidneys, promoting kidney disease.

When brain ATP is low, the heart muscle stiffens and blood pressure rises. As kidney disease progresses, blood pressure falls.

The brain is priority 1 for the whole body because it consumes so much energy with very little of it's own ATP and glucose or ketone stores. The worse the situation is for brain energy supply, the slower methylation and detoxification becomes.

The liver completely bypasses producing glutathione and creatine etc because it needs the homocysteine protein to produce ammonia and raise angiotensin, which raises cortisol, which raises blood sugar directly to the brain, at great expense to all the other organs, and promotes insulin resistance.

So baring this in mind, it makes sense that improving the health of the brain ATP supply, which is supplied by the myelin sheath, will help the body to resume it's duties and lower calcium toxicity.

This is why I link to this: http://www.doctormyhill.co.uk/wiki/Phos ... d_exchange

Flush out the toxic cells in place of shiny new ones, which maximises the chance of retaining magnesium and getting ATP into the brain to lower glutamate, which raises GABA.

Methylation should get more interest on the forum. Ray always deconstructs the roles and is especially a fan of glycine, which is crucial to stimulate the transsulfuration and remethylation pathways, but he never directly refers to methylation due to the extreme argument that overmethylation is damaging. 80% of people are undermethylators and could benefit from increased methylation, as it drives heart performance and cell health. Antioxidants are not made internally without methylation.

 

[kineticz]

L-lysine - serotonin antagonist

Notice the bottom right hand corner. Cortisol diversion of the methylation pathways and the use of proteins. This happens primarily when there is an energy crisis in and to the brain. The heart performance reduces when liver performance reduces. The body then diverts protein synthesis to constrict supply in the lungs and kidneys to retain blood pressure to the brain.

Notice the arrow leading from ammonia in the kidneys to produce arginine and NO which haidut has made clear the adverse effects from.

It is also worth noting the decline of the G6PDH enzyme to the left in green that occurs when this cortisol pathway goes up. G6PDH is critical for the intracellular space to retain and recycle the antioxidant glutathione, and the function of NADH. This increases the health and longevity of red blood cells to provide richer oxygen and fuel to your organs to perform repairs and accept increases in metabolism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucose-6 ... deficiency

Go down to the Pathophysiology section. A failure in this pathway can further contribute to calcification and kidney disease.

NADH is important for the side cleavage enzyme P450 to work, which converts cholesterol to pregnenolone. So methylation is absolutely crucial to our endeavours. Reducing angiotensin by improving the ATP supply to the brain increases the likelihood that NADH and P450 work to increase metabolism and limit cortisol.

Finally, It is also worth noting that there is low phenylphalanine to tyrosine, and low serine to glycine conversions found in kidney disease (calcium toxic kidneys). We all know how important tyrosine and glycine are.

Your kidneys are the bodys last resort to boost brain energy before kidney failure. It must be your first priority to reduce calcium toxicity and improve the health of your cell membranes/phospholipids, while limiting fatty acid liberation from the liver. Free roaming fatty acids quickly turn into oxidative stress if your ATP ion pumps are weak, hampering your chances of getting sodium and magnesium to stay into cells, and calcium to stay in bone.

Prolonged adrenaline and cortisol maximise oxidative stress, which maximises your need to do a phospholipid exchange regularly until your kidneys heal and metabolism increases in the liver. You do not want your brain cell membranes to be made up of oxidized fatty acids from a burdened liver.

This is why I am not convinced that more calcium in milk etc is sensible, since in low ATP states calcium will ALWAYS be the body's way of energising and killing stressed and de-energised cells, along with glutamate. All you're doing by consuming calcium is docompensating your body's means of sustaining energy to the brain. A battle that is foolish to fight.

The issue with calcium is low ATP, and not really to do with parathyroid hormone. Parathyroid hormone and serotonin are a red herring, a downstream protective adaptation by the body to sustain kidney output. If you want to solve issues you should always go for the source, not tree branch symptoms.

So healing is not based around more calcium and lower serotonin, it is around boosting cell membranes, heart performance (the heart loves burning fats so taking l-carnitine (NOT acetyl carnitine) should help), brain energy supply and ATP, lowering aldosterone and increasing antioxidant reserves through lowering oxidative stress (excess free roaming glucose and fatty acids).

A weak liver means a weak heart, and poor condition cell membranes.
A weak heart means weak kidneys and calcification. Poor vascularity and endurance.
Calcification means high cortisol which atrophies everything, your thymus, pineal, blood vessels, cell respiration, testosterone production, adrenals, thyroid, everything.
Weak kidneys mean low glycine, low tyrosine, hypertension, poor sodium retention, high aldosterone, high ammonia, high arginine, and damaged, low energy red blood cells.

Since the brain is no1. priority, it should be worked on first. The brain is made up of fats. Some are the 'doomed' essential fatty acids, this cannot be avoided. The brain condition and supply, and the liver methylation, need more focus on this forum. I rarely see brain health mentioned, because fatty acids are viewed as so negative, like serotonin. The brain is one lump of fat and they are not all coconut oil I have to tell you. Coconut oil is just a fuel. Ray's views on fatty acids and methylation are potentially at great disadvantage to those attempting his otherwise very imperative views on limiting oxidative stress.

PUFAs are toxic to cell respiration, fair enough. But what he neglected to point out is that the brain contains and needs omega 6 and 3 in a particular ratio of 4 to 1. And as I have discussed at length, if the brain isn't happy, ALL ORGANS SLOW AND BECOME TOXIC. It is not made of glucose (lol) or saturated fat alone. It's made from EFA and choline. Unlike all other organs made from protein in the body, the brain is a lump of a variety of fats that need the right proportions to limit the chance of glutamate. It is more akin to a mass of cells rather than a typical organ such as the liver or heart.

An energised brain makes you more likely to break out of learned helplessness, which solves the serotonin issue.

The way I see the totality of problems is as a canti-lever of distribution of energy. More prolonged oxidative stress and glutathione depletion will shift towards angiotensin and cortisol. The heart will suffer as a result of the poor energy supply to the brain. Weak heart, weak brain, you suffer from degenerative diseases and you die early. Kidney disease patients can rely on dialysis to flush out the imbalance of electrolytes, phosphates, as a result of toxic liver undermethylation. The lungs, well, you just suffer from shortness of breath and low stamina in the gym but they rarely fail. All of this is due to a poor production and delivery of ATP to the brain in our toxic mass production world.

 

[Agent207]

L-lysine - serotonin antagonist

Awesome posts and info kiteticz!!

The question would be about the minimum pufa requirement for keeping brain proper function. Would be the amount on 3-4 yolks from pastured hens enough? They contains a decent amount of dha... As for O6, they're present almost everything, like milk, eggs, butter, cheese, olive oil, avocados... etc, so i guess it would be very rare to be deficient on those.

BTW, why l-carnitine and not Alcar?

 

[kineticz]

L-lysine - serotonin antagonist

post 112784 Awesome posts and info kiteticz!!

The question would be about the minimum pufa requirement for keeping brain proper functon. Would be the amount on 3-4 yolks from pastured hens enouth? They contains a decent amount of dha... As for O6, they're present almost everything, like milk, eggs, butter, cheese, olive oil, avocados... etc, so i guess it would be very hardly to be deficient on those.

Follow Ray's advice regarding limiting overconsumption of PUFAS but add the below phospholipid exchange protocol into your life. What I am trying to bring to the debate is some crucial context regarding perspective and balance about adaptive mechanisms in the body, mainly angiotensin.

All organs are made of protein. The brain is made of fat. And it isn't coconut oil.

The point isn't whether you are deficient in pufas, it's whether you specfically target the ratio of fats to renew brain cell membranes without the adverse effects of reducing cellular respiration. Healthy, clean brain cell membranes will reduce angiotensin, which reduces cortisol and calcium toxicity, providing relief to the heart and kidneys.

Only the brain needs the EFAs, otherwise it is still important to limit fatty acid liberation from the liver, in order to limit potential oxidative stress from the roaming fats that are not burned for ATP by poorly functioning mitochondria.

http://www.doctormyhill.co.uk/wiki/Phos ... d_exchange

Clears my brain fog right up, along with 2000mg/day l-carnitine. Hemp oil itself has the closest ratio for brain cells.

Only when brain ATP is restored will the kidneys, heart and liver feel relief. Airways should open up, and anxiety should reduce.

 

[kineticz]

L-lysine - serotonin antagonist

post 112784

BTW, why l-carnitine and not Alcar?

Alcar is most often recommended by people who advise to increase the transport of burning of fats.

Actually, acetyl version of carnitine, I have read, and in my experience, is not the same as carnitine. Acetyl is primarily for the brain, whereas l-carnitine should burn fats and raise ATP in all the organs. Remember, ATP is crucial for the liver methylation, which, when angiotensin is reduced, will start producing the antioxidants glutathione again and remethylate homocysteine to produce heart-healthy nutrients such as more carnitine.

While alcar for the brain might sound good given what I've said, it is important to remember that ATP is provided sufficiently by the liver and heart, as the brain itself has a very limited capacity to produce and store ATP itself (consumes 20% but produces 2%) Most of the brain's ATP comes from having healthy myelin sheath and oxygenated blood, from healthy kidneys.

So we need the standard version of l-carnitine to boost ATP throughout the body.

The point of taking l-carnitine is that it's more effective in the liver and heart. Once methylation gets off the ground, carnitine is a by product, so the correct processes become self sustaining.

Acetyl carnitine makes me anxious, l-carnitine works very well. I was a little annoyed people recommend the acetyl version so often when it's actions are not the same in my experience.

 

[Agent207]

L-lysine - serotonin antagonist

I always thought on Alcar to be good because its supposed effect preventing lipofuscin accumulation even removal, like centrophenoxine.


You said: "omega 3 and 6 in a particular ratio of 4 to 1"... but the hemp oils seems to be the opposite:

"In comparison, hemp contains linoleic acid (omega-6) and alpha linoleic acid (omega-3) in the optimum 3:1"

Also it lacks dha.

 

[kineticz]

L-lysine - serotonin antagonist

That ratio I wrote is the wrong way round, sorry. Hemp oil is 3.8:1, so add a drop of sunflower oil. As is listed in the link I have repeatedly shown,


Phospholipid exchange is a technique for supplying the correct proportion of fats and oils in a bioavailable form to replenish cell membranes and membranes within cells.
This technique has been pioneered by Dr Patricia Kane, who has seen remarkable clinical results. She uses intravenous therapy, but good results are also possible with oral therapy. Together with sufferers I am experimenting with techniques to get the best results. The underlying principles are:

The basic membrane structure is made up of phosphatidylcholine. The best source of this is lecithin (available as egg, soya or sunflower lecithin).
Membranes then need the right proportion of omega 6 to 3 oils, i.e. 4:1. Hemp oil is very close to this ratio at 3.8:1. (Hemp oil is not the same as linseed oil!) So, add in a small amount of sunflower oil, say 5%. This is the equivalent of Patricia Kane's Body Bio-oil as in the recipe below.
Small amount of Eskimo oil (not necessary if you already take VegEPA)
The perfect fuel for brain cells is coconut oil, which is rich in medium chain triglycerides.
If there is poor digestion or poor gall bladder function for any reason, then adding bile salts may be very helpful by further emulsifying fats and facilitating digestion and absorption.

Providing an abundance of clean oils helps to displace oils in the brain which hold polluting heavy metals, pesticides, volatile organic compounds etc. That is to say, these "clean" fats will displace "dirty" fats and also help detoxification.

 

[Brian]

L-lysine - serotonin antagonist

post 112772 Yep. The sodium potassium ATPase pumps keep things operating smoothly.

Increase sodium to minimise aldosterone, which should naturally increase progesterone stores, and increase magnesium to keep calcium extracellular.

I have difficultly thinking that taking calcium is necessary, due to the reaction of the kidneys which reduce vitamin D to ensure that calcium is lowered.

I think that minimising cortisol and taking a good K2 supplement is the best way to limit calcium and osteoporosis.


High cortisol, calcium, glutamate, and oxidized fatty acids are a cells worst enemy.

Keep the myelin sheath happy in the brain and generally makes ATP a whole lot more likely in the heart, kidneys, lungs, muscles and liver. When glutamate signal is high in the brain the whole system switches to angiotensin and cortisol to sustain energy, as opposed to the methylation of creatine, carnitine, and glutathione and taurine detoxification.

I know Peat is anti-fatty acids but I've had really good results from this:

http://www.doctormyhill.co.uk/wiki/Phos ... d_exchange

The myelin sheath is made up mostly of these fats. Healthy membranes means the ion pumps and bundles of nutrients are retained.

I like your line of thinking here. I think the most common Peaty mistake is a high fluid and calcium diet when sodium concentration is low. Adding teaspoons of salt to an already high liquid diet doesn't seem to make up for it.

If low sodium and magnesium are the issue I think a person needs to go to a low liquid diet, drinking the minimum to satisfy thirst while loading up on sodium and magnesium and a relatively low calcium intake until things are rebalanced.

I have had both positive and negative experiences from a higher calcium diet and I attribute almost all the negatives to low cellular sodium and magnesium concentration.

I haven't researched omega 3 and 6 very much, but my hunch is that I definitely benefit from more than zero.

 

[kineticz]

L-lysine - serotonin antagonist

The main thing that will keep the sodium potassium ion pumps working well is to reduce angiotensin and cortisol, by maximising ATP to the brain.

 

[Brian]

L-lysine - serotonin antagonist

post 112793 The main thing that will keep the sodium potassium ion pumps working well is to reduce angiotensin and cortisol, by maximising ATP to the brain.

For me what has worked has been simply to take in more sodium and much less liquid. Lots of time outdoors seems to help a lot too, which I would guess is in part from the greatly lowered cortisol.

 

[kineticz]

L-lysine - serotonin antagonist

post 112795

post 112793 The main thing that will keep the sodium potassium ion pumps working well is to reduce angiotensin and cortisol, by maximising ATP to the brain.

For me what has worked has been simply to take in more sodium and much less liquid. Lots of time outdoors seems to help a lot too, which I would guess is in part from the greatly lowered cortisol.

More sodium definitely advisable to minimum aldosterone and boost blood volume. Generally the benefits of outdoors are indeed the fresh ions in the air to reduce hypoxia and the stimulation which boosts prefrontal cortex metabolism.

Hypoxia causes mitochondria biogenesis, and in my experience it is better to have a smaller number of very efficient mitochondria than highly dense mitochondria that work poorly.

In relation to cortisol and calcium excess, though, I believe the central cause is deficient brain ATP due to undermethylation, since it keeps cells and the heart happy, and poor methylation leads to toxic membranes.

The liver needs high levels of ATP, in order to clear toxins and regenerate sustained ATP in the heart. It's a true stalemate between heart, brain, liver. The kidneys become the fall guy.

 

[Brian]

L-lysine - serotonin antagonist

post 112796

post 112795

post 112793 The main thing that will keep the sodium potassium ion pumps working well is to reduce angiotensin and cortisol, by maximising ATP to the brain.

For me what has worked has been simply to take in more sodium and much less liquid. Lots of time outdoors seems to help a lot too, which I would guess is in part from the greatly lowered cortisol.

More sodium definitely advisable to minimum aldosterone and boost blood volume. Generally the benefits of outdoors are indeed the fresh ions in the air to reduce hypoxia and the stimulation which boosts prefrontal cortex metabolism.

Hypoxia causes mitochondria biogenesis, and in my experience it is better to have a smaller number of very efficient mitochondria than highly dense mitochondria that work poorly.

In relation to cortisol and calcium excess, though, I believe the central cause is deficient brain ATP due to undermethylation, since it keeps cells and the heart happy, and poor methylation leads to toxic membranes.

The liver needs high levels of ATP, in order to clear toxins and regenerate sustained ATP in the heart. It's a true stalemate between heart, brain, liver. The kidneys become the fall guy.

I attribute the cortisol and serotonin lowering effects of being outdoors mostly to brightness and a perception of openness and freedom of movement in all directions.

I don't doubt that proper methylation is key, but I've personally noticed the greatest increase in ATP from focusing on loading up on magnesium after sufficient sodium concentration has been reached. Magnesium retention for me is very good when my sodium levels are high.

 

[Agent207]

L-lysine - serotonin antagonist

What do you suggest to check methylation status? Seems like Yasko guidelines based on basic methylation panels like the 23andme can sometimes induce to wrong conclusions without urine tests.

What about whole blood histamine and SAMe/SAH ratio?

Aren't undermethylators tend to be low in serotonin levels?

 

[Derek]

L-lysine - serotonin antagonist

post 112774

post 112772 due to the reaction of the kidneys which reduce vitamin D to ensure that calcium is lowered

interesting......this might explain why someone might have low vit. D despite getting plenty of sunlight and eating foods with vitamin D?

When you have low metabolism the body down regulates vitamin D. Low serum D is a symptom of a problem, not the problem itself. Why does the body down regulate D? Because calcium suppresses metabolism, your body doesn't want you to absorb calcium, so it down regulates vitamin D. This is a protective mechanism by the body, and just more proof that calcium does indeed suppress metabolism. Funny how Doctors test D, it's low, they recommend supplementing D without even understanding why it's low.

 

[kineticz]

L-lysine - serotonin antagonist

post 112800 What do you suggest to check methylation status? Seems like Yasko guidelines based on basic methylation panels like the 23andme can sometimes induce to wrong conclusions without urine tests.

What about whole blood histamine and SAMe/SAH ratio?

Aren't undermethylators tend to be low in serotonin levels?

Methylation isn't something to take lightly as it affects DNA and RNA transcription. SAH will be high in undermethylators as it is greatly toxic and inhibitory to SAMe. Also, we need to take the focus off serotonin for a moment. Peat's context of serotonin does not apply to the methylation context.

I don't want us to directly alter methylation at least in the beginning. I have argued rather about the adaptive rerouting towards supporting cortisol and not antioxidants when cellular calcium and glutamate block ATP production. My view is that methylation is greatly hindered by angiotensin, and angiotensin is intensified when the brain (no other organ) is not getting enough ATP itself and enough quality red blood cells. Hence I mentioned earlier the G6PDH enzyme which recycles glutathione.

ATP goes up in the brain when the phospholipids that constitute the brain are the right consistency, and healthy red blood cells go up when the kidneys recover. So this is something that needs to be simultaneously addressed in order for methylation to start using cysteine for glutathione instead of ammonia, and cysteine to be remethylated to mitochondrial performance duties such as carnitine, norephiprene, etc at the top left of the chart I posted on the previous page.

 

[Agent207]

L-lysine - serotonin antagonist

I know your point, but my questions is what would you test to determine your methylaton status is OK, is under, over...? Which ones in your opinion would be the most clear markers?

I think all this is relevant enough to deserve its own thread....

 

[kineticz]

L-lysine - serotonin antagonist

Personally I wouldn't test anything. I would restore ATP to the brain, regularly do a phospholipid exchange, take magnesium and carnitine and get on with my life, as I have been doing with huge success. It is only with this great clarity I have been able to put together the extensive theories on the previous page.

The most clear markers for undermethylation would have to be high homocysteine and high serum B12. But the most relevant marker is persistently high cortisol. Even if cortisol shows as low, indicating advanced adrenal weakness, it still points to overstimulation of cortisol by angiotensin, hence severe undermethylation.

All methylation needs is for ATP to be in adundance. Then you add in methyl b-vitamins, magnesium and zinc. It can't methylate when cortisol is excessive and calcium is blocking up ion pumps and respiration.

And as I explained earlier, increasing G6PDH increases NADH, NADH increases P450, P450 increases pregnenolone, pregnenolone increases ATP and metabolism and lowers cortisol, which continues to lower calcium and glutamate. The liver methylation needs to produce glutathione for G6PDH to lock in and recycle glutathione.

So to kickstart methylation you renew your inevitably toxic brain cells, and take a very small amount of select mitochondrial nutrients. Works for me.

High pregnenolone, high ATP, high intracellular magnesium, sodium and potassium, high ATP to the healthy brain cells maintained by a healthy liver methylation. That solves all issues. Healthy methylation increases serotonin IN BALANCE WITH dopamine for ultimate calmness.

Healthy kidneys means increased vit D, DHEA, sodium, glycine, serine, tyrosine, to name a few.

 

[kineticz]

L-lysine - serotonin antagonist

post 112813 I know your point, but my questions is what would you test to determine your methylaton status is OK, is under, over...? Which ones in your opinion would be the most clear markers?

I think all this is relevant enough to deserve its own thread....

By all means open up a thread with my theories

 

[Agent207]

L-lysine - serotonin antagonist

Thaks for your insight. I guess proper thyroid function is needed before attempting to fix any methylation issue. Can I ask whats is your dietary calcium intake aprox?