[Non Peat] Undermethylators, Ketogenesis

[kineticz]

I did not notice any additional benefit from the phospholipid exchange, as compared to simply using the ionic magnesium (dissolved in OJ) with P5P, which does seem to be a fairly powerful tranquilizer as Kineticz reported.

That must mean you have good ATP brain delivery, better than myself. Congrats.

 

[kineticz]

That is what ive heard. Low methylation has less chance of cancer. I've heard the main benefit of fasting is lowering methylation as well. Ray has mentioned that methylation is correlated with aging. As we age, we methylate more to make up for the lack of CO2 production.

We need to get things straight here. Methylation is a complex chain of three main pathways. Undermethylating down the transsulfuration pathway PROMOTES organ and brain degeneration. It's not cause, it's effect of aging. Your antioxidants get burned up and you have a higher risk of heart/kidney failure, diabetes, degenerative brain disorders, depending on the ratios of your calcium/glutamate toxicity, angiotensin, arginine vasopressin, red blood cell supply, myelin sheath composition, heart muscle stiffness.

Transsulfuration pathway goes up because oxidative stress goes up with aging. This is not a reason to avoid methylating down this pathway. In fact it is the opposite. Ray even promotes glycine which is key to optimising transsulfuration, and we all know that we support magnesium/P5P/ATP on this forum. Glutathione is absolutely central to your attempts to raise metabolism. Anyone not getting a thyroid boost should work on transsulfuration for a while.

(If you can get hold of the l-serine amino acid it works wonders for kidney health, and reversibly converts to glycine.)

This is not the same pathway as the methionine synthase DNA (cancer) B12/folate pathway which I haven't talked about and don't wish to. Don't mess with it. Focus on your glutathione and magnesium inside red blood cells and mitochondria. Look at the chart. Homocysteine branches off down three ways depending on your ATP. And it will further branch down into ammonia and angiotensin if your total body ATP and glutathione are heavily taxxed, resulting in high cortisol.

Fasting reduces methylation because it promotes mitochondrial biogenesis and therefore NADH enzymes. This is why niacinamide reduces methionine synthase/MTHFR. Vitamin B2 works in opposite direction and promotes this pathway. None of this is relevant to transsulfuration.

Also, the reduction in angiotensin and cortisol with better transsulfuration and magnesium retention reduces blood sugar. Healthy red blood cells 'lock away' both glucose and magnesium through the production, retention and recycling of glutathione. Low blood sugar is far healthier than chronic high blood sugar because it mimics fasting, which limits the methionine synthase pathway and therefore chances of DNA defects.

Taurine in harmony with glutathione then prevents oxidative stress by limiting fatty acid liberation, paving the way for efficient glucose, oxygen, magnesium delivery for ATP production in the red blood cells, while your creatine and carnitine from efficient re-methylation via the BHMT choline pathway (to be optimised after you raise glutathione, taurine and carnitine) and more meat in diet produce ATP by keep the heart pumping strong to direct beta oxidation in the blood stream.

I explain again, Ray supports methylation without directly coining the phrase, because he doesn't want you to promote high cysteine and high DNA transscription. Clearly he understands the pitfalls of his argument style because many here have bought into extremes with no appreciation for context.


Everyone should optimise their transsulfuration pathway, moreso with aging. Then let the carnitine and creatine from a more meat based diet and high glutathione look after your brain and heart. High glutathione means less risk of kidney disease, so you retain zinc, selenium, magnesium, serine, glycine, tyrosine, sodium, the list goes on. Look at how many of those nutrients are pro-Peat.

I find it amazing I am lectured on Ray's studies and articles when I apparently, reading between the lines, know that he supports methylation in this manner. Sugar will not restore ATP in many people and they need to kickstart transsulfuration away from the kidney disease and cortisol/calcium promoting pathway of ammonia.

Same with serotonin. He repeatedly agrees serotonin is an adaptive response to conserve energy. That doesn't mean you go out and drop serotonin to zero or that serotonin is evil. Serotonin is necessary to balance you. Excessive serotonin will reduce metabolism, this is the point of it's increase. Small drops in serotonin are worthwhile to increase the dopamine and noradrenaline pathway, perhaps to help you get out of a rut, e.g. BCAAs. But excessive drops in serotonin can enhance adrenaline and deplete thyroid hormone. Serotonin's relationship to the phenlyphlanine - tyrosine - dopamine - LDOPA - noradrenaline - adrenaline pathway is a tricky one.

Same with PUFA. If you don't like PUFA don't eat PUFA. Why this needs extensive discourse is a complete waste of time. It won't change the production of food. Assuming people wish to boost their energy rather than crusade.

Finally, if you undermethylate in any or all pathways, your risk of high homocysteine and cardiovascular disease is greatly increased. High homocysteine means high oxidative stress, so you run the risk of high cholesterol (strokes etc). Low bioavailable zinc is also a potent cause of high homocysteine due to chronic high blood sugar. Ketogenesis prevents this because a greater metabolism (not the same as liberation) of fatty acids prevents lactic acid, and it also prevents calcium and cortisol toxicity leading to zinc deficiency

This is why you should not discuss hypothyroidism without understanding transsulfuration/glutathione retention and implications for cellular membrane entry of fuels such as cholesterol, fatty acids, oxygen and sugar.

It's important to think of the liver as the logistics warehouse. Goods in - goods out. If your liver is cluttered, the road map and coordination of your organs and your cells are cluttered. This is the basis of degeneration. The haulage industry, red blood cells, become toxic and inefficient, which limits thyroid activity.

 

[lexis]

Do you reccommend taking pure amino acids for protein?

 

[lexis]

post 114586 say 'are you getting enough magnesium' without understanding it's effect on liver protein synthesis. Ray never discusses it and so it isn't pushed here. Sodium doesn't solve an intracellular magnesium problem.

The reduction in weight retention is probably due to reduction in edema due to calcified/de-energised cells and a happier heart (not due to estrogen - why does everything have to be related to estrogen on this forum lol.) The heart increases water retention via arginine vasopressin when magnesium and other nutrients are low. The liver is then more likely to resume glutathione and taurine protein synthesis. A better functioning heart will allow sodium retention to increase, increasing blood pressure and fuel delivery to the brain. The heart always supercedes the localised angiotensin of the kidneys and lungs when brain ATP is low and the liver is unde

Natural Calm has citric acid,right?

 

[kineticz]

post 114688 Do you reccommend taking pure amino acids for protein?

I recommend people manually boost their transsulfuration pathway via direct methods then move towards meat and veg with some use of sugar around fasting. Once methylation and ATP are primed then possible to use fructose to boost LDL cholesterol and therefore pregnenolone for thyroid hormone.

I do not recommend pure amino acids especially whey proteins because they can raise homocysteine and histamine which is greatly and unnecessarily stimulatory to cortisol. I would however recommend l-carnitine (not acetyl carnitine) and glycine as a supplement, and also l-serine.

Once transsulfuration is optimised then you are welcome to take aminos such as BCAAs which limit the DNA methionine synthase pathway, further directing homocysteine to glutathione and taurine.

In fact it is interesting that many supplements that promote mitochondrial biogenesis will limit the methionine synthase methylation preventing genetic disorders from arising. BCAAs, DHEA, T3, all promote new NADH. NADH is directly antagonistic to methionine synthase. Again this is all indirectly advocated by Peat. Even E2 estradiol promotes mitochondria and limits methionine synthase, I personally am a fan of E2.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.ph ... nce.13464/

 

[lexis]

Whats a good sign of optimized transsulfuration?

 

[YuraCZ]

This lady couldn't walk due to MS and now she can ride the bicycle..

[bbvideo=560,315]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2yA3QPDDLM[/bbvideo]

 

[kineticz]

L-lysine - serotonin antagonist

^Plenty of excellent advice on that vid. Thanks

 

[CoolTweetPete]

post 114697 This lady couldn't walk due to MS and now she can ride the bicycle..

[bbvideo=560,315]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2yA3QPDDLM[/bbvideo]

Dr. Wahls story is very touching. I heard her on the Bulletproof guys podcast a few years ago.

If I recall correctly she focused on getting enough magnesium (which as Rhonda points out is involved in over 300 enzymatic reactions in the body) and was supplementing with glutathione as part of her road to recovery.

 

[YuraCZ]

I just watched this video and I have exactly eyes like that.
[bbvideo=560,315]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BT3Jst4QCPQ[/bbvideo]

I also suffer from low blood pressure, damaged blood vessels, also with atherosclerosis and I have on both forefingers this nails. So it looks like anemia and I think from deficiency in folate? Is that possible? What should I do? I'm scared of doctors. They think I'm hypochondriac or something.

 

[Giraffe]

post 112825 Hypothyroidism does not cause problems, it reacts to problems. However, I do believe thyroid receptor resistance exists, due to prolonged unused thyroid hormone in serum. But again, this is due to cellular impairment.

RP: And the same thing happens inside the cell, the responsiveness of the cell to thyroid, is inhibited in proportion to the amount of unsaturated fats.

The Thyroid (East West Healing Blog Talk Radio, 2011)

 

[Giraffe]

post 113187 The beneficial effects of using ketones as a fuel is very real and and Peat himself has said as such in so many ways. The waters get murky when we talk about about the physiological state that produces the ketones i.e. ketosis. Yet, the evidence that ketosis is beneficial (in a variety of ways) is hard to ignore.

OK, his cholesterol went down. Given that Ray Peat recommends fruit and fruit juices in order to raise cholesterol this is not surprising.

Cholesterol is precursor of steroid hormones, bile acids, and vitamin D. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cholesterol

Further reading: Cholesterol, longevity, intelligence, and health.

 

[Nicholas]

post 114690 I do not recommend pure amino acids

what about Taurine or Lysine?

 

[Nicholas]

"Ray Peat right again:" bile acid binding (and cholesterol lowering) of steamed green vegetables: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19083431

collards are also the highest green veggie source of Vitamin K, and the lowest in oxalates of any green vegetable. just so happens that eating cooked collards seems pretty "Peaty"

 

[Tarmander]

post 114802 "Ray Peat right again:" bile acid binding (and cholesterol lowering) of steamed green vegetables: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19083431

collards are also the highest green veggie source of Vitamin K, and the lowest in oxalates of any green vegetable. just so happens that eating cooked collards seems pretty "Peaty"

Well yeah...except all the Thalium and Cesium: http://www.delish.com/food/a43162/kale-poison-thallium/

 

[Nicholas]

post 114808

post 114802 "Ray Peat right again:" bile acid binding (and cholesterol lowering) of steamed green vegetables: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19083431

collards are also the highest green veggie source of Vitamin K, and the lowest in oxalates of any green vegetable. just so happens that eating cooked collards seems pretty "Peaty"

Well yeah...except all the Thalium and Cesium: http://www.delish.com/food/a43162/kale-poison-thallium/

so are you saying Ray Peat is wrong? : )

 

[Tarmander]

post 114810

post 114808

post 114802 "Ray Peat right again:" bile acid binding (and cholesterol lowering) of steamed green vegetables: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19083431

collards are also the highest green veggie source of Vitamin K, and the lowest in oxalates of any green vegetable. just so happens that eating cooked collards seems pretty "Peaty"

Well yeah...except all the Thalium and Cesium: http://www.delish.com/food/a43162/kale-poison-thallium/

so are you saying Ray Peat is wrong? : )

He's talked about how crappy heavy metals are :)

 

[Nicholas]

post 114814

post 114810

post 114808

post 114802 "Ray Peat right again:" bile acid binding (and cholesterol lowering) of steamed green vegetables: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19083431

collards are also the highest green veggie source of Vitamin K, and the lowest in oxalates of any green vegetable. just so happens that eating cooked collards seems pretty "Peaty"

Well yeah...except all the Thalium and Cesium: http://www.delish.com/food/a43162/kale-poison-thallium/

so are you saying Ray Peat is wrong? : )

He's talked about how crappy heavy metals are :)

which would be in modern bone broth as well : )

 

[Tarmander]

post 114815

post 114814

post 114810

post 114808

post 114802 "Ray Peat right again:" bile acid binding (and cholesterol lowering) of steamed green vegetables: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19083431

collards are also the highest green veggie source of Vitamin K, and the lowest in oxalates of any green vegetable. just so happens that eating cooked collards seems pretty "Peaty"

Well yeah...except all the Thalium and Cesium: http://www.delish.com/food/a43162/kale-poison-thallium/

so are you saying Ray Peat is wrong? : )

He's talked about how crappy heavy metals are :)

which would be in modern bone broth as well : )

You could put some kale in that bone broth and make it even better

 

[Nicholas]

post 114821

post 114815

post 114814

post 114810

post 114808

post 114802 "Ray Peat right again:" bile acid binding (and cholesterol lowering) of steamed green vegetables: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19083431

collards are also the highest green veggie source of Vitamin K, and the lowest in oxalates of any green vegetable. just so happens that eating cooked collards seems pretty "Peaty"

Well yeah...except all the Thalium and Cesium: http://www.delish.com/food/a43162/kale-poison-thallium/

so are you saying Ray Peat is wrong? : )

He's talked about how crappy heavy metals are :)

which would be in modern bone broth as well : )

You could put some kale in that bone broth and make it even better

supplying more pro-mitochondrial nutrients, more pro-liver nutrients, and more anti-estrogen bile to increase the elimination of heavy metals in food and the environment. :-?