"why is fish oil bad for you" for dummies

[uuy8778yyi]

So all

nuts/seeds/grains/legumes, avocados, olives and their oils are to be avoided. okay.

but fish oil is omega 3, not omega 6.

but is still rubbish. why ?

 

[HDD]

In declaring EPA and DHA to be safe, the FDA neglected to evaluate their antithyroid, immunosuppressive, lipid peroxidative (Song et al., 2000), light sensitizing, and antimitochondrial effects, their depression of glucose oxidation (Delarue et al., 2003), and their contribution to metastatic cancer (Klieveri, et al., 2000), lipofuscinosis and liver damage, among other problems.

In experiments that last just a few weeks or months, there may not be time for cancers to develop, and on that time scale, the immunosuppressive and antiinflammatory effects of oxidized fish oil might seem beneficial. For a few decades, x-ray treatments were used to relieve inflammatory conditions, and most of the doctors who promoted the treatment were able to retire before their patients began suffering the fatal effects of atrophy, fibrosis, and cancer. (But a few people are still advocating x-ray therapy for inflammatory diseases, e.g., Hildebrandt, et al., 2003.) The fish oil fad is now just as old as the x-ray fad was at its peak of popularity, and if its antiinflammatory actions involve the same mechanisms as the antiinflammatory immunosuppressive x-ray treatments, then we can expect to see another epidemic of fibrotic conditions and cancer in about 15 to 20 years.

When reviewers in professional journals begin to ignore valid research whose conclusions are harmful to the fish oil industry, we can see that the policy guidelines set by the industry and its agents in government have become clear. Around the end of the century, we begin to see a strange literary device appearing, in which research reports on the toxic effects of omega-3 oils are prefaced by remarks to the effect that "we all know how great these oils are for good health." I think I detect groveling and shuffling of the feet by authors who want to get their work published. If you are willing to say that your work probably doesn't mean what it seems to mean, maybe they will publish it.

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/fishoil.shtml

 

[uuy8778yyi]

I did.

but I did not understand it

 

[honeybee]

Hey you that's seems pretty hostile. There are no stupid questions in the quest for health.

 

[you]

Hey you that's seems pretty hostile. There are no stupid questions in the quest for health.

Yea, sorry.

 

[halken]

Yea, it's definitely confusing as PUFAs are determined by the ratio of omega-3s and 6s. It's confusing how Ray Peat submits that PUFAs in all their ratio variants are bad for you. Pretty ******* crazy if you ask me.

 

[pboy]

because it smells like hell

 

[HDD]

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/fa ... ion3.shtml

"Arachidonic acid is made from linoleic acid, and so those two oils were considered as roughly equivalent in their ability to meet our nutritional needs, but a large part of current research is devoted to showing the details of how fish oils protect against arachidonic acid. The “balance” between the omega -3 and the omega -6 fatty acids is increasingly being presented as a defense against the toxic omega -6 fats. But the accumulation of unsaturated fats with aging makes any defense increasingly difficult, and the extreme instability of the highly unsaturated omega -3 fats creates additional problems."

 

[uuy8778yyi]

does fish oil, breakdown into pgd2 ?

do all pufas break down into pgd2 ??

is pgd2 bad ?

 

[halken]

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/fats-degeneration3.shtml

"But the accumulation of unsaturated fats with aging makes any defense increasingly difficult, and the extreme instability of the highly unsaturated omega -3 fats creates additional problems."

Too vague to understand exactly why polys are related to aging and why they're supposedly "unstable".

 

[you]

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/fats-degeneration3.shtml

"But the accumulation of unsaturated fats with aging makes any defense increasingly difficult, and the extreme instability of the highly unsaturated omega -3 fats creates additional problems."

Too vague to understand exactly why polys are related to aging and why they're supposedly "unstable".

Try reading these articles

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/un ... oils.shtml
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/un ... fats.shtml
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/fa ... ions.shtml
http://raypeat.com/articles/nutrition/o ... text.shtml
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/fa ... ion3.shtml
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/un ... fats.shtml
http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2010/1 ... tty-acids/
http://butterbeliever.com/toxic-polyuns ... our-cells/
https://pranarupa.wordpress.com/2012/12 ... t-on-pufa/

 

[schultz]

does fish oil, breakdown into pgd2 ?

do all pufas break down into pgd2 ??

is pgd2 bad ?

No, PUFA's can turn into many different things.

The omega-3 EPA can turn into PGD3, which seems to antagonize PGD2.

The omega-3's are incredibly unstable, this is a well known thing (not just some "crazy Ray Peat" idea)

This study found that a lot of fish oil marketed in New Zealand was already oxidized even before being purchased.

The human body is much warmer than a fishes. Fish like salmon and rainbow trout can't tolerate warm water. This is actually being talked about right now because of warming water levels; a lot of fish have been dying because of it. I was wondering if maybe the warm water causes the fat in these fish to oxidize at an accelerated rate and they just can't handle it. I'm not sure if it has been studied though, and I don't know that much about fish. Look it up, it's pretty interesting.

DHA, another omega-3, has also been shown to have some problems associated with it...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19341237
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21714128

The molecular mechanism by which DHA induces apoptosis is unclear. Although there is no direct evidence, some studies have suggested that DNA damage generated through lipid peroxidation may be involved. Our previous studies showed that DHA, because it has a high degree of unsaturation, can give rise to the acrolein-derived 1,N(2)-propanodeoxyguanosine (Acr-dG) as a major class of DNA adducts via lipid oxidation.

Acrolein (Acr) is a ubiquitous environmental contaminant. It comes from different sources, including industries, food, cigarette smoke, incomplete combustion and cooking. Acr also can be generated endogenously; it is a by-product of lipid peroxidation.

Therefore, we conclude that Acr is a major lung and bladder carcinogen, and its carcinogenicity arises via induction of DNA damage and inhibition of DNA repair.

 

[Dutchie]

Personally,I think the key here is that they're talking about 'fish oil'.
I agree that those supplements aren't so healthy.

However eating some fatty fish,imho,is not comparable to the dangers these supplements migth cause.(Also keep in mind that the fish oil pills are more concentrated/higher in oil,than eating some actual fish)
I've personally found that the omega 3's contained in actual food are beneficial for me.

 

[halken]

So does that mean William Lands is full of ***t?

 

[uuy8778yyi]

thank you

that summarised it perfectly

 

[tara]

"why is fish oil bad for you" for dummies

The polyunsaturated oils in fish, like most seed oils, are very unstable and easily oxidised. Their breakdown products can cause lots of damage. Whether the oil in fatty fish is better or worse than supplements probably depends partly on how much you are getting of either.

I didn't understamd much of the first one or two articles of Peat's that I read either. It got better as I read more of them, and reread them. His interviews are simpler - you might find it easier to start there.

 

[LucH]

Hi,
I agree when RP says PUFA’s are very unstable and depress the system and thus lead to many “problems”.
But we have to take some more points into account when “suffering from “back pain” e.g.

First, we forget all current oils as they are all, without any exception, very rich in LA (linoleic acid, parent omega-6). 5 % is still too much when you suffer from a pathological illness, with an inflammatory component.
We could admit one spoonful olive oil on vegetables if you aren’t cardiac (stress).

Take your PUFA’s from food (fish, nuts, organic eggs and poultry). Eat avocado, olive fruits, macadamia, and duck for MUFA’s. Eat organic eggs, coconut butter and crude butter for Saturated FA.
A good balance is not difficult to reach if you don’t buy foodstuff ready to use!
And don’t forget: Saturated FA aren’t the culprit the media say.
“When you do not eat adequate amounts of saturated fat, your body forces cholesterol to penetrate the membrane to save / protect the cell, thereby reducing the total amount of cholesterol. Far from being beneficial, this causes a state of emergency: when cholesterol is used to maintain the integrity of cells, it is no longer available to produce hormones”.
Source: Don’t be afraid of saturated fats. Pr Philippe Even.

If people have problem with too much LDL (but “How much, is too much?”, not as we’re usually told), it’s not a problem of cholesterol but a problem of arteries clogged.
You won’t blame the firefighter to be responsible for the accident because he is present whenever there is a fire. The firefighter is the witness of a problem; not the culprit. It's the same with LDL cholesterol.
If you want to go more in depth, make a search with “Cholesterol is not the culprit!”
Or « Cholestérol, mensonges et propagande » if you can read into French.

[highlight=yellow]If you still decide to take 2.4 – 3 g EPA to counteract PEG2 prostaglandins, you must balance and protect your arteries[/highlight]:
When I take fish oil EPA softgels, I also take a mix of tocopherols and tocotrienols (natural vitamin E) and b-carotene from fruits and vegetables (5 – 10 mg). Of course, you know there in interaction between other antioxidants: Vit. C E and selenium (sparing effect). Otherwise, it won’t be a good idea as PUFA's are very unstable, as you know

Obviously, I don’t forget to make a pause every 2 months, and then I make a switch to phytotherapy (liposomal curcumin or boswellia serrata, e.g.)
When we fight against excess of PGE2, don’t forget we act on the consequence, not the cause. Thus the body goes around the obstacle if you do not vary your approach.
LucH.

 

[Blinkyrocket]

I think it's not as big a deal diet wise since it's such a small amount (but why would you take it anyway?). From what I can tell the problem Ray peat has with it is the overwhelming obsession with it that distracts people and just makes them incredibly confused, talking about ratios of PUFA and whatnot when the problem is all vegetable oil, and PUFA of any kind. So, fish oil oxidizes quickly and is highly unstable but the reason I think Ray peat dislikes it so much is because of the bigger picture that it causes, people think that they can eat a bunch of vegetable oil and then "offset" it with some nice omega-3's. It's an obsession over something that is believed to be healthy but isn't really. But if you follow a strict peat diet that keeps u around 2g of PUFA a day, in that context the fish oil will still be a stupid decision to take but won't cause near as much damage.

 

[EnoreeG]

... the overwhelming obsession with it that distracts people and just makes them incredibly confused, talking about ratios of PUFA and whatnot when the problem is all vegetable oil, and PUFA of any kind. So, fish oil oxidizes quickly and is highly unstable but the reason I think Ray peat dislikes it so much is because of the bigger picture that it causes, people think that they can eat a bunch of vegetable oil and then "offset" it with some nice omega-3's. It's an obsession over something that is believed to be healthy but isn't really. But if you follow a strict peat diet that keeps u around 2g of PUFA a day, in that context the fish oil will still be a stupid decision to take but won't cause near as much damage.

Exactly. And Schulz and LucH -- good advice also. PUFA is a complex issue to start with, then the fish-oil propaganda started and made it much more confusing, and instead of first telling people the most important thing to do is to delete all refined oils from the diet (which would have created some resistance by the $$public$$) they just started implying that, since "balance" is necessary, one can "balance" by increasing fish-oil intake until it "balances" the omega-6!

Nobody usually counts up all their food intake and totals 2 columns: omega-6 and omega-3. So they have no idea what they consume. The SAD diet might be 40:1 weighted toward omega-6. A healthy non-junk-food eater of free-range animal products and organic plants and no junk food might be 3:1. The fish-oil industry may (and really wants to) get most people then to take omega-3 supplements when some are already "balanced" and already getting more than enough PUFA just from the fresh whole food they eat.

So supplemental fish-oil is going to be an overdose for many people, and even if it isn't a threat due to being already oxidized in the capsules, it can cause some serious mental issues. Check the case studies at the end of this article by a clinician that deals with PUFA overloads:

More on Balance

I don't care if one believes all PUFA is unnecessary. We're all going to get some. Peat says that. He very simply says "minimize" because he knows you can't eliminate it. And precisely because we never eliminate it, the issue of "essentiality" will probably never be proven. So it's a non-issue. I just agree with others here who say, if you have to take in some, "fresh is best".

And I'll add, I also think the "omega-3 is better from animal sources (fish) than from plants" is just more fish-oil sales hype. They claim some people (statistics please? what %?, hmmm) have poor ability to synthesize DHA and EPA from the parent omega-3, alpha-linolenic acid (ALA). And there is competition for break-down enzymes between omega-6 and omega-3. Well, if you have minimized your omega-6, you've certainly minimized the "competition", and I think there are very few individuals who then have any trouble creating DHA, etc. from parent omega-3. If I'm right (and I eat accordingly), then you don't even need fish to survive and your body can get plenty of ALA from eating things such as steamed spinach (approved by Peat) and carrots, and from this you can derive DHA and EPA all by yourselves.

Spinach

Notice there's over 5 times the omega-3 in spinach as there is omega-6. Carrots are distorted the other way though, with 50 times as much omega-6 as omega-3:

Carrots