Thoughts On 5ar And Post Finasteride Syndrome

[BeLiKeWater]

How do you differentiate in peripherical and between brain?

 

[haidut]

It has to be more than just the 5ar enzymes. If it were just our 5ar enzymes we would still react to androgens correctly. Why does my body respond to testosterone cream with panic attacks and anxiety? The brain just doesn't sense androgens the way it should. The brain doesn't sense hydrocortisone like it used to, pregnenolone tablets like it used to. Both of these prior extremely relaxing hormones I used to take frequently- they feel like hell now.

It takes a bleeping idiot who had prior issues to take finasteride to put these things on paper for the world, but the brain just does not sense hormones like it once did for some reason. Testosterone, dht- they aren't the only ones.

I think there are different types of PFS. A lot only get physical effects. Neurologically, I have been severely damaged. I know that something has changed extremely extremely drastically in the way my brain functions. The hardest part for me is the inability to make improvements because I am essentially incapable of being alive with Ativan or another benzo in my system due to how physically weak and anxious I get without. I am hoping Prozac can take the Ativan's place.

What doesn't make sense is how it is the year 2017 and they can't just monitor a rats' brain going through a PFS crash to see exactly what happens. This shouldn't be the hardest thing to figure out in the world. It's a mystery, but a mystery not a enough people care about to fix this. Because of this lack of care, I'm sure my quality of life will never recover.

It is indeed more than the 5-AR enzyme. Finasteride disrupts the entire hormonal cascade and lowers T levels as well, as I posted in another thread. So, while the mental issues seem to be mostly from 5-AR downregulation the overall catabolic state and hypometabolism finasteride seems to cause depend on other pathways as well. It also raises cortisol, and this effect alone can mess up everything if it continues chronically.

 

[Ron J]

It is indeed more than the 5-AR enzyme. Finasteride disrupts the entire hormonal cascade and lowers T levels as well, as I posted in another thread. So, while the mental issues seem to be mostly from 5-AR downregulation the overall catabolic state and hypometabolism finasteride seems to cause depend on other pathways as well. It also raises cortisol, and this effect alone can mess up everything if it continues chronically.

Do you think saw palmetto can cause the same issues as Finasteride?

 

[JoeKool]

@Ron J yes Ron... many ppl suffer similar consequences with saw... despite being 'just an herb'... it's powerful and, if you're concerned at all after reading all the affects, avoid it big time

 

[Base Ball]

I was on both finasteride and dutasteride as part of a cancer treatment for about 14 months before I decided to pitch them both. This syndrome is real, but I don't think you can fix it with a rifle shot. Because it is so hypometabolic I think the best approach is to use some of the things that increase the enzyme, but mainly try to increase the production of energy and stay away from things that depress the production of energy. When I started doing that approach I started turning around. The syndrome is not completely reversed, but it seems to be moving in the right direction.

 

[bruschi11]

@Ron J the sad part for me here is this. In 2013 at age 24 I used a bunch of supplements for boosting T and used some saw palmetto for hair loss. I got off every supplement that fall, got a girlfriend, wasn't as concerened muscle building etc. But for the very very first time in my life libido decreased and I was having some chronic fatigue issues.

I figured it was alcohol, getting used to the same girl etc. Well 3 years of fixing that adrenal fatigue with eventual need for testosterone cream, t3, pregnenolone getting me back to near 100% (sexually like 300% from the dht in the T cream lol), I out of nowhere just decided to use finasteride. This has absolutely broken me.

It just seems that 5ar inhibitors are absolutely terrible for some people. Some people's enzymes, brains can't recover for some reason. If you were to consider saw palmetto or beta sitosterol, I highly recommend having 5athf/thf ratio done. It is done in a very expensive 24 hour rhein hormonal test which can cost between 500 to 1000 dollars. But had I done this before fin, I'm fairly certain this would have not happened to me.

 

[TubZy]

It is indeed more than the 5-AR enzyme. Finasteride disrupts the entire hormonal cascade and lowers T levels as well, as I posted in another thread. So, while the mental issues seem to be mostly from 5-AR downregulation the overall catabolic state and hypometabolism finasteride seems to cause depend on other pathways as well. It also raises cortisol, and this effect alone can mess up everything if it continues chronically.

Neurosteroids in PFS patients were monitored after fin and certain ones like allopreg, THDOC and another I don't recall as I don't have the study in front of me were all low. The other hormones including DHT and even T were normal. I can verify this for myself, my hormones are all fine and many others.

I guess the issue with 5AR in the brain is that if allopreg or any of the other anti stress neurosteroids aren't working right (either from GABA-A receptor or 5AR downregulation) that will cause issues throughout the rest of the body like metabolic issues like digestion etc. Because if GABA isn't working right in the brain there is nothing there to dampen the stress response from cortisol.

I guess what I'm saying is everything seems to start in the brain and if it can be fixed there everything else should fall into place.

 

[Ron J]

@Ron J the sad part for me here is this. In 2013 at age 24 I used a bunch of supplements for boosting T and used some saw palmetto for hair loss. I got off every supplement that fall, got a girlfriend, wasn't as concerened muscle building etc. But for the very very first time in my life libido decreased and I was having some chronic fatigue issues.

I figured it was alcohol, getting used to the same girl etc. Well 3 years of fixing that adrenal fatigue with eventual need for testosterone cream, t3, pregnenolone getting me back to near 100% (sexually like 300% from the dht in the T cream lol), I out of nowhere just decided to use finasteride. This has absolutely broken me.

It just seems that 5ar inhibitors are absolutely terrible for some people. Some people's enzymes, brains can't recover for some reason. If you were to consider saw palmetto or beta sitosterol, I highly recommend having 5athf/thf ratio done. It is done in a very expensive 24 hour rhein hormonal test which can cost between 500 to 1000 dollars. But had I done this before fin, I'm fairly certain this would have not happened to me.

No way I'd use 5ar inhibitors. I'm asking because years ago I used this product called Hair Essentials in which it includes a bunch of known 5ar inhibitors. If I remember correctly, I got the 3 months supply they recommend(ed). I have a history of consuming soy milk(not sure how long, I was young) and I also scratched my nipples during puberty(known to increase prolactin). I'm not sure if an optimal diet is enough; I'm wondering if a subject with a similar history might need something more extreme like androsterone.

 

[haidut]

Do you think saw palmetto can cause the same issues as Finasteride?

Probably not, as its active ingredient is a type of progesterone steroid.

 

[haidut]

Neurosteroids in PFS patients were monitored after fin and certain ones like allopreg, THDOC and another I don't recall as I don't have the study in front of me were all low. The other hormones including DHT and even T were normal. I can verify this for myself, my hormones are all fine and many others.

I guess the issue with 5AR in the brain is that if allopreg or any of the other anti stress neurosteroids aren't working right (either from GABA-A receptor or 5AR downregulation) that will cause issues throughout the rest of the body like metabolic issues like digestion etc. Because if GABA isn't working right in the brain there is nothing there to dampen the stress response from cortisol.

I guess what I'm saying is everything seems to start in the brain and if it can be fixed there everything else should fall into place.

You were probably one of the lucky few. Finasteride is known to lower T and raise cortisol in a significant number of people. See this thread.
5-AR Inhibitor Drugs Like Finasteride Cause Persistent ED And Lower Testosterone

 

[haidut]

@haidut said it's estrogenic

Here is one of the studies.
Forskolin up-regulates aromatase (CYP19) activity and gene transcripts in the human adrenocortical carcinoma cell line H295R. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[TubZy]

You were probably one of the lucky few. Finasteride is known to lower T and raise cortisol in a significant number of people. See this thread.
5-AR Inhibitor Drugs Like Finasteride Cause Persistent ED And Lower Testosterone

Not saying it is not true, I could of even had low T coming off initially since I did not have my T levels checked until 6 months after being off fin.

If @bloom thinks it's a brain issue neurosteroids would be the most ideal? Have you tried massive doses of pregnenolone multiple times a day @bloom ?

I also came across some cool research I will post later today.

 

[bloom]

Not saying it is not true, I could of even had low T coming off initially since I did not have my T levels checked until 6 months after being off fin.

If @bloom thinks it's a brain issue neurosteroids would be the most ideal? Have you tried massive doses of pregnenolone multiple times a day @bloom ?

I also came across some cool research I will post later today.

The trick seems to be to increase 5ar in the Brain but not elsewhere. It is typical in PFS for guys to have perfect blood work, yet full blown PFS, that's me. I deteriorate on prohormones, and anything which increases androgens peripherally. I'm doing alot of research at the moment. I'm treating PFS as a neurological condition @TubZy, i'll let you know what I find.

 

[bruschi11]

For sure I think the predominate problem is 5ar downregulation in the brain. Like I said any attempts to increase DHT peripherally makes me worse. I read a post from a guy on propecia help who claimed Proviron 'shrunk his ****'. I think there are varying degrees of severity with PFS. The worst being when it is downregulated in the Brain. My biggest improvements so far have come from 'slamming' the GABAA receptor with high doses of Nicotinamide, and valium. Every aspect of my condition improved, mental and physical. Libido, Brainfog, memory, mood. My muscles tightened, I started to sweat again, I started to get spontaneous erections, temperature in my **** increased, my shrinkage reversed. Whereas creatine, and sorghum made me dramatically worse. Shrunk my **** ect. Looking at countless posts from propeciahelp, this is not uncommon. This is a huge clue that the problem resides in the brain.

@bloom when you say you improved mightily on valium. Was this still while on valium or at all times? Like say you take it for sleep- the next day when its out of your system are you still feeling the positive effects?

 

[heaahde]

@bloom what can you use to specifically increase 5ar in the brain?

 

[bloom]

@bloom when you say you improved mightily on valium. Was this still while on valium or at all times? Like say you take it for sleep- the next day when its out of your system are you still feeling the positive effects?

As soon as I feel the Valium kicking in I feel vast improvements in mood and libido. I get erections spontaneously, I find women attractive again ect. Unfortunately the effects wear off as is the case with benzodiazepines.

 

[bloom]

@bloom what can you use to specifically increase 5ar in the brain?

Anything which is a GABAA receptor agonist seems to. @haidut found a study of drugs which increase 5ar in the Brain, it's at the beginning of this thread.

 

[bloom]

Anything which is a GABAA receptor agonist seems to. @haidut found a study of drugs which increase 5ar in the Brain, it's at the beginning of this thread.

There's something exceptionally special about the GABAA receptor and sexual function.

 

[bloom]

This is an extremely interesting study.

DNA methylation of the GC box in the promoter region mediates isolation rearing-induced suppression of srd5a1 transcription in the prefrontal cortex. - PubMed - NCBI

The levels of allopregnanolone (ALLO), a neurosteroid, in brain and serum are related to severity of depression and anxiety. Steroid 5α-reductase type I is the rate-limiting enzyme in ALLO biosynthesis and plays an important role in control of the ALLO level in mammalian brain. In this study, we examined an epigenetic mechanism for transcriptional regulation of srd5a1, which codes for steroid 5α-reductase type I, using isolation-reared mice.

The mRNA level of srd5a1 was decreased in the prefrontal cortex (PFC) in isolation-reared mice. Rearing in social isolation increased methylation of cytosines at -82 and -12 bp downstream of the transcription start site, which are located in a GC box element in the promoter region of srd5a1

These findings suggest that transcription of srd5a1 in brain is regulated by environmental factor-induced cytosine methylation in the promoter region. This finding could contribute to development of antidepressant and anxiolytic agents.

Could hold hope for future therapies, the use of demethylating agents

 

[bloom]

Stay the hell away from Bisphenol A, F, and S. This study found it reduces 5ar expression in the Prefrontal cortext of rats.

Bisphenol A, bisphenol F and bisphenol S affect differently 5α-reductase expression and dopamine-serotonin systems in the prefrontal cortex of juve... - PubMed - NCBI

BPA decreased 5α-R2 and 5α-R3 mRNA and protein levels, while both BPF and BPS decreased 5α-R3 mRNA levels in PFC at PND21