Thoughts On 5ar And Post Finasteride Syndrome

[bloom]

OK this study supports my suspicion that Androgens can cause a negative feedback leading to decreased activity of 5ar in the Brain. This study found that testosterone given to male rats decreased activity of 5ar in the Pituitary, I really hope i'm interpreting this correctly.

Regulation of the pituitary 5 alpha-reductase activity by gonadotropin releasing hormone and testosterone in the adult male rat. - PubMed - NCBI





@haidut I'd like your thoughts on this

You increase androgens peripherally puts a negative feedback on the Hypothalamus and Pituitary. Leads to decreased activity of an ALEADY SEVERELY DOWNREGULATED ENZYME IN THE PITUITARY. I'll add that this can explain why men report to get better on a low dose of Fin. Fin doesn't inhibit 5ar1 which is expressed in the brain. Fin reduces blood levels of androgens, increases 5ar1 activity in the pituitary

 

[bruschi11]

Wow. Above post makes me realize I'm pretty much doomed. Without increasing androgens - (via hcg or trt), I'm pretty much impotent. While increasing them, fatigue anxiety are just too much.

There's just no way out of this. I just don't know how this pill can be on the market. Or at least how it can be on the market without a REQUIRED blood test done before checking 5ar activity- 5athf/thf is all they would have to do.

Testosterone itself is a controlled substance that requires serious blood tests before TRT. In essence compared to fin, it is absolutely harmless. Harmless. How many lives have been ruined by TRT?

Sorry for the vent and not getting us anywhere with this post. But for this drug to be prescribed to the average Joe just for hair loss when there is no idea what is actually causing that hair loss is absolutely ludicrous.

 

[JoeKool]

@bruschi11
You're not doomed. I'll be posting some good progress in my thread later today. To rebuild 5ar baseline and sensitivity, it's consistent supplementation and time to work. I felt doomed too but my progress has been astounding

 

[bruschi11]

@JoeKool thanks man. My situation is tough because I really wasn't well before fin. I was using testosterone cream to help a long term adrenal fatigue issue. I was doing very well but noticed the hair loss. At this point fin was not an option.

I began high dose minoxidil foam in early October several times per day. I didn't realize it at the time, but I was getting depressed on it and anxious. I wasn't myself again, but I just thought inside that I was getting mad about the hairloss. Which led me to fin. 15 days of it and I couldn't handle it. I recovered, but out of nowhere 3 weeks later all hell broke loose. And when I say all hell- the mental sides were unbearable without drugs. Stopped TRT, the mental sides still horrible but less, while impotency took over.

I think its just obvious I always was a low 5ar guy in the first place and hair loss had nothing to do with elevated 5ar enzymes like most- I had the ratio done 5athf/thf .4 (.6 to 1.6 scale). But I do think something is underlying the reason for the enzymes staying low.

That being said it seems you really like R-Andro for all your sides huh? I was figuring to go back on TRT (I am off now but literally impotent) but reading studies that it will even lower 5ar activity in brain is very concerning.

Somethings gotta give right now. I am 4 months post crash now and I feel like I haven't taken one step forward. Without any type of drug in me (Ativan, cyproheptadine) for mental health, I am physically incapable of anything.

 

[TubZy]

We forgot theanine. That should be a no brainer especially paired with caffine. Theanine alters the DHEA/cortisol ratio to be DHEA dominant meaning more androgens, which we want along with stopping the stress response from caffeine. Theanine also positively influences GABA.

Fin does that exact opposite and raises the cortisol to DHEA ratio being dominant in cortisol.

@bruschi11 you might like this since you always take about adrenals
Theanine Stops And Reverses The Stress Reaction (cortisol, Noradrenalin, Dopamine)

 

[bruschi11]

Thanks Tubzy. Trust me I've gone megadose on theanine like 200mg 5 times per day. I felt it at first a tiny bit but the effects weren't lasting.

I talk abut the adrenals a lot because trust me man- pre-fin I had a system for my body that really was amazing. 6 months of it- just looked at some pictures of the good times and its killing me. Wake up and you KNOW what your body needs to run well. Preg. t3, and T-cream. Maybe an HC tab here or there on stressful days.

Obviously coffee too lol- I remember one day I was so hungover with a 1pm tee time. Could not get myself going with preg, t3, T- finally had a coffee at noon and felt fabulous- such a beautiful day summer day on the course. Ugh those were the days.

But being unwell enough to need that system pre-fin where you NEED androgens to run on to being in a place where androgens now do not work correctly in the body (anxiety, panic attack provoking)- just seems like a practically impossible place to be.

Sounds so stupid- but starting low dose Prozac within day or two. Maybe it'll relax the brain, adrenals- provide some much needed allopreg. Maybe body will start to handle androgens. Maybe Butea, Tribulus, and some other things I have up my sleeves will help.

 

[tallglass13]

Some aromatizable steroids seem to be necessary for proper libido in human males. Peat has always recommended adding DHEA and/or pregnenolone to DHT when asked about supplementing with it and I think the thread I posted on synergism between androsterone and DHEA adds more evidence to that theory. So, adding even a little Pansterone should help.

Thank you @haidut , you are so right! The last two days i added 1 drop of Pansterone to scrotum and my libido and morning erections were back!

 

[bloom]

All is not lost we're making progress, i've made a lot of progess in my recovery and I think we're getting a better understanding of the condition.
I have a theory about the infamous PFS crash. You go on a 5ari, your body responds by upregulating the enzyme. You go off the 5ari, androgens return to normal levels possibly above normal levels, you feel fine for a while. Since 5ar has been upregulated increased androgens create a negative feedback on the Hypothalamus, body responds by downregulating the enzyme the result is PFS.
There's a solution out there, possibly a simple one, the hard part is finding it. And I think we will.

 

[bruschi11]

It has to be more than just the 5ar enzymes. If it were just our 5ar enzymes we would still react to androgens correctly. Why does my body respond to testosterone cream with panic attacks and anxiety? The brain just doesn't sense androgens the way it should. The brain doesn't sense hydrocortisone like it used to, pregnenolone tablets like it used to. Both of these prior extremely relaxing hormones I used to take frequently- they feel like hell now.

It takes a bleeping idiot who had prior issues to take finasteride to put these things on paper for the world, but the brain just does not sense hormones like it once did for some reason. Testosterone, dht- they aren't the only ones.

I think there are different types of PFS. A lot only get physical effects. Neurologically, I have been severely damaged. I know that something has changed extremely extremely drastically in the way my brain functions. The hardest part for me is the inability to make improvements because I am essentially incapable of being alive with Ativan or another benzo in my system due to how physically weak and anxious I get without. I am hoping Prozac can take the Ativan's place.

What doesn't make sense is how it is the year 2017 and they can't just monitor a rats' brain going through a PFS crash to see exactly what happens. This shouldn't be the hardest thing to figure out in the world. It's a mystery, but a mystery not a enough people care about to fix this. Because of this lack of care, I'm sure my quality of life will never recover.

 

[bloom]

Th

It has to be more than just the 5ar enzymes. If it were just our 5ar enzymes we would still react to androgens correctly. Why does my body respond to testosterone cream with panic attacks and anxiety? The brain just doesn't sense androgens the way it should. The brain doesn't sense hydrocortisone like it used to, pregnenolone tablets like it used to. Both of these prior extremely relaxing hormones I used to take frequently- they feel like hell now.

It takes a bleeping idiot who had prior issues to take finasteride to put these things on paper for the world, but the brain just does not sense hormones like it once did for some reason. Testosterone, dht- they aren't the only ones.

I think there are different types of PFS. A lot only get physical effects. Neurologically, I have been severely damaged. I know that something has changed extremely extremely drastically in the way my brain functions. The hardest part for me is the inability to make improvements because I am essentially incapable of being alive with Ativan or another benzo in my system due to how physically weak and anxious I get without. I am hoping Prozac can take the Ativan's place.

What doesn't make sense is how it is the year 2017 and they can't just monitor a rats' brain going through a PFS crash to see exactly what happens. This shouldn't be the hardest thing to figure out in the world. It's a mystery, but a mystery not a enough people care about to fix this. Because of this lack of care, I'm sure my quality of life will never recover.

I'm sorry to hear than man but dont lose hope. The above study explains why you get anxiety when you go on testosterone. The above study showed that testosterone given to mice creates a negative feedback on the Hypothalamus causing decreased 5ar activity in the pituitary. I get anxiety when i increase androgens peripherally. I get dramatically better when I take things which seem to increase 5ar in the Brain. The problem is low 5ar activity in the Brain.

 

[bloom]

Th

I'm sorry to hear than man but dont lose hope. The above study explains why you get anxiety when you go on testosterone. The above study showed that testosterone given to mice creates a negative feedback on the Hypothalamus causing decreased 5ar activity in the pituitary. I get anxiety when i increase androgens peripherally. I get dramatically better when I take things which seem to increase 5ar in the Brain

 

[bruschi11]

Sorry about the rant @bloom - you may be very right there.

I just think we all had low 5ar activity in the brain while on the drug- and none of us were this bad while on it. I feel like lowered 5ar enzymes are one thing- but post fin something happens far far worse. I'm hearing the gaba-a receptor may have been really what was hit the most and that's what led to this hell for us.

 

[bloom]

Sorry about the rant @bloom - you may be very right there.

I just think we all had low 5ar activity in the brain while on the drug- and none of us were this bad while on it. I feel like lowered 5ar enzymes are one thing- but post fin something happens far far worse. I'm hearing the gaba-a receptor may have been really what was hit the most and that's what led to this hell for us.

5ar produces metabolites which are powerful allosteric modulators of the GABAA receptor: Allopregnanolone, THDOC, 3a-diol

 

[bruschi11]

I know that. So the belief I guess now is that something happened to the Gaba-a receptor with the rise and drop of these hormones and dht. Something was misprogrammed somehow.

 

[Gibson2k3]

It has to be more than just the 5ar enzymes. If it were just our 5ar enzymes we would still react to androgens correctly. Why does my body respond to testosterone cream with panic attacks and anxiety? The brain just doesn't sense androgens the way it should. The brain doesn't sense hydrocortisone like it used to, pregnenolone tablets like it used to. Both of these prior extremely relaxing hormones I used to take frequently- they feel like hell now.

It takes a bleeping idiot who had prior issues to take finasteride to put these things on paper for the world, but the brain just does not sense hormones like it once did for some reason. Testosterone, dht- they aren't the only ones.

I think there are different types of PFS. A lot only get physical effects. Neurologically, I have been severely damaged. I know that something has changed extremely extremely drastically in the way my brain functions. The hardest part for me is the inability to make improvements because I am essentially incapable of being alive with Ativan or another benzo in my system due to how physically weak and anxious I get without. I am hoping Prozac can take the Ativan's place.

What doesn't make sense is how it is the year 2017 and they can't just monitor a rats' brain going through a PFS crash to see exactly what happens. This shouldn't be the hardest thing to figure out in the world. It's a mystery, but a mystery not a enough people care about to fix this. Because of this lack of care, I'm sure my quality of life will never recover.

I also believe there are different types of PFS, but definitely a nuerological disorder. 4 years after cessation I am mostly dealing with the mental sides such as brain fog, short term memory loss, mild depression and very poor word retrieval. Physically, Ive dealt with sensitivity issues, extreme fatigue, awful back pain and stomach bloating/pain that subsided two years ago after a anti- biotic and steroid shot from my doctor. Sensitivity issues are still there but not as prevalent. Can't explain that but I'm thankful that it went away. To Bruschi's point, and although a Lil different, as I wasn't on trt before fin, I tried to go on trt last September. First week was the best week of my life. I was completely recovered. However, I started hcg shots (mon/wed/fri) a week after my first week of testosterone. I got worse After each hcg shot and by week 4 I was having severe panic attacks and anxiety issues immediately after each hcg shot. As well as slow rate vision and depersonalization. I quit the trt immediately and All issues have subsided except the brain fog/short term memory problems as I stated above. So back to square one. I have been following guys like tubzy, slade and others that have been very helpful in this journey lately. I think there is a lot of helpful things with their protocols to increase the 5ar activity that have helped me since my second crash with the trt. Niacinimide, R andro, peating after a week long water fast were beneficial. I even think my baseline is even better than before the Trt. So hang in there bruschi, stay positive bc it will get better. A lot of very smart people in this forum.

 

[BeLiKeWater]

bruschi star putting that hormones in the right values and see what happens first before jumping to conclusion, all 5ar metabolites are disminished in pfs patients, so.. we have a start there,

 

[bloom]

Forskolin is known for stimulating cAMP

cAMP is interesting, I just read another study which showed it increased 5ar activity in glial cells. The trick seems to be(at least for me to increase 5ar in the brain but not peripherally), I'm going to look into Forskolin I might give it a try.

 

[TeslaFan]

Glycine up-regulates 5aR, but will do so mostly peripherally I believe, which, as @bloom points out, may create a negative feedback.
Then, how about dimethyl-glycine? It crosses the blood-brain barrier. TMG will, too, though I don't see any advantage over DMG.

 

[Such_Saturation]

cAMP is interesting, I just read another study which showed it increased 5ar activity in glial cells. The trick seems to be(at least for me to increase 5ar in the brain but not peripherally), I'm going to look into Forskolin I might give it a try.

@haidut said it's estrogenic

 

[bloom]

Glycine up-regulates 5aR, but will do so mostly peripherally I believe, which, as @bloom points out, may create a negative feedback.
Then, how about dimethyl-glycine? It crosses the blood-brain barrier. TMG will, too, though I don't see any advantage over DMG.

This is why I think glycine is so hit and miss for me, it can make me dramatically better or dramatically worse. Thanks for that i'll look into TMG and DMG