Thoughts On 5ar And Post Finasteride Syndrome

[bloom]

No you are right, I personally tried everything under the sun that increases DHT/ DHT derivative, but I also used it for muscle building purposes prior to taking fin back in the day and it gave me a completely different response compared to when taking those same supps (proviron, masteron, trib etc.) after taking fin- it's like it barely works and I got no "mental" alpha male effect while using it anymore. It makes sense now, I feel much better physically on those supps but they don't do anything for the 5AR in the brain where the root cause is, none of those supps ever relieved brain fog, insomnia etc. they just helped with the DHT throughout the other parts of the body.

Same for me, creatine and sorghum may tighten my muscles, make me bulk a little bit. But does nothing for my libido, and mental state. If anything it makes it worse, lowers my libido, and causes my Junk to shrink. TRT for PFS should have been abandoned a long time ago.

 

[bloom]

Here is my theory after reading all the great stuff in this thread:

PFS relief comes from neuroactive DHT downstream metabolites THDOC, 3a diol and allopreg which are GABAa positive allosteric modulators.

Etifoxine, fluoxetine and alcohol provide relief to PFS symptoms via the above either by increasing 3ahsd type 3 (etifoxine, acute alcohol, fluxetine) or 5ar type 1 (alcohol acute and etifoxine), TSPO ligand activation (etifoxine) or preventing the oxidisation of allopreg into 5a-dhp (fluoxetine). It seems for fluoxetine and maybe SSRIs in general, all positive attributed benefits are due to neurosteroid enhancement and not due to serotonin.

"Thus, our results provide behavioral evidence for the role of neurosteroids like ALLO in the anti-anxiety effect of etifoxine."

Elsevier: Article Locator

"Acute ethanol administration induces a dose- and time-dependent increase in brain concentration of the neuroactive steroid allopregnanolone."

https://www.researchgate.net/public..._Ethanol_allopregnanolone_and_the_hippocampus

"Acute ethanol increases 5a-R type 1 (5a-RI) and 3a-HSD mRNA in the frontal cortex of rats (Kim et al, 2003). Taken together, it appears that ethanol induced increases of 3a,5a-THP in the cerebral cortex are dependent on adrenal-derived precursor, which is converted to 3a,5a-THP by locally synthesized steroidogenic enzymes."

https://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v39/n8/pdf/npp201446a.pdf?origin=ppub

"Compared to saline, acute EtOH administration in Experiment 1, enhanced aggression among intact rats and concomitantly enhanced formation of the T metabolite and neurosteroid, 3-androstanediol, (3-diol) in frontal cortex."

"These data support the notion that EtOH can enhance 3-diol formation in cortex partly by enhancing 5-reduction of T over aromatization."

https://benthamopen.com/contents/pdf/TONEUROPPJ/TONEUROPPJ-2-1.pdf

"Exposure of frog hypothalamic explants to graded concentrations of etifoxine produced a dose-dependent increase in the biosynthesis of 17-hydroxypregnenolone, dehydroepiandrosterone, progesterone and tetrahydroprogesterone, associated with a decrease in the production of dihydroprogesterone."

"Our data indicate that etifoxine stimulates the biological activity of certain steroidogenic enzymes, such as 3β-HSD, P450C17, 5α-R and/or 3α-HSD in frog hypothalamic neurons. In addition, it has been reported that neurosteroidogenic enzyme inhibitors such as trilostane, a specific inhibitor of 3β-HSD [66], finasteride, an inhibitor of 5α-R [67] and indomethacin, an inhibitor of 3α-HSD [68] suppress the anxiolytic effect of etifoxine [38]"

The non-benzodiazepine anxiolytic drug etifoxine causes a rapid, receptor-independent stimulation of neurosteroid biosynthesis. - PubMed - NCBI

"Interestingly, a rapid response in the activity of 3α-HSD has been observed in the rat brain after administration of fluoxetine [75–78], which like etifoxine exerts anxiolytic properties [79,80]."

The Non-Benzodiazepine Anxiolytic Drug Etifoxine Causes a Rapid, Receptor-Independent Stimulation of Neurosteroid Biosynthesis

The type 3 isoform is present in the CNS and preferentially converts 5α-DHP to allopregnanolone.

Upregulation of neurosteroid biosynthesis as a pharmacological strategy to improve behavioral deficits in a putative mouse model of PTSD

"Thus, 3alpha,5alpha-THP plays a pivotal role in the actions of ethanol"

"inhibition of the endogenous neurosteroid biosynthesis by drugs like 5alpha-reductase inhibitor, finasteride (50 mg/kg, s.c.), 3beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase inhibitor, trilostane (30 mg/kg i.p.) or 3alpha-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase inhibitor, indomethacin (5 mg/kg, i.p.) and GABA(A) receptor antagonist, bicuculline (1 mg/kg, i.p.) blocked the antidepressant like effect of ethanol."

Behavioral action of ethanol in Porsolt's forced swim test: modulation by 3 alpha-hydroxy-5 alpha-pregnan-20-one. - PubMed - NCBI

"Fluoxetine elevated allopregnanolone in female rat brain by inhibiting its oxidation to 5α-dihydroprogesterone by a microsomal dehydrogenase."

Fluoxetine elevates allopregnanolone in female rat brain but inhibits a steroid microsomal dehydrogenase rather than activating an aldo-keto reduct... - PubMed - NCBI

Nice man, the study mentioning etifoxine possibly increasing 5ar and 3ahsd makes me really keen to try it.

 

[TubZy]

Same for me, creatine and sorghum may tighten my muscles, make me bulk a little bit. But does nothing for my libido, and mental state. If anything it makes it worse, lowers my libido, and causes my Junk to shrink. TRT for PFS should have been abandoned a long time ago.

Yeah, also have you tried taking diamant alone or in combo with anything yet? It can cross the BBB easily in terms of bringing other drugs/supplements into the brain better.

Diamant - Liquid Adamantane For R&D

Also, have you experimented with naltrexone? It can increase allopreg and much more.

I orderd a bunch of stuff as well. I'm just on thyroid (t4/t3) right now at the moment.

 

[bloom]

Yeah, also have you tried taking diamant alone or in combo with anything yet? It can cross the BBB easily in terms of bringing other drugs/supplements into the brain better.

Diamant - Liquid Adamantane For R&D

Also, have you experimented with naltrexone? It can increase allopreg and much more.

I orderd a bunch of stuff as well. I'm just on thyroid (t4/t3) right now at the moment.

That's interesting have you tried Diamant? what other stuff have you ordered?

 

[TubZy]

That's interesting have you tried Diamant? what other stuff have you ordered?

Etifoxine, white peony extract and naltrexone.

Other than that I'm just on thyroid at the moment a combo of T4 and T3, which seems to have improved all my metabolic symptoms by now after about a week. I can handle pasta, cookies, grains etc. now easily, I couldn't do that before without taking niacinamide or caffeine. Only a minor positive change in mental sides though, I can hold glycogen longer and stress better, but nothing ground breaking.

I only tried diamant with 5a-dhp once so far and the effects were more dramatic and it kicked in way kicker, I used it orally. I want to try it with other stuff perhaps diamant plus niacinamide or something.

I plan to experiment with the above stuff I mentioned when they get here, should be soon.

 

[Regina]

Etifoxine, white peony extract and naltrexone.

Other than that I'm just on thyroid at the moment a combo of T4 and T3, which seems to have improved all my metabolic symptoms by now after about a week. I can handle pasta, cookies, grains etc. now easily, I couldn't do that before without taking niacinamide or caffeine. Only a minor positive change in mental sides though, I can hold glycogen longer and stress better, but nothing ground breaking.

I only tried diamant with 5a-dhp once so far and the effects were more dramatic and it kicked in way kicker, I used it orally. I want to try it with other stuff perhaps diamant plus niacinamide or something.

I plan to experiment with the above stuff I mentioned when they get here, should be soon.

I tried 8 drops diamant and 4 drops 5a-dhp (both topical this morning) with 2 drop tyronene and 6 drops stressnon. Lovely day. Before this evening's aikido class, I drank sugary salty milk with 1 gram of inosine. Did not get crazy speedy heart-rate and air gasping tonight.

 

[Cydanic]

Yeah, also have you tried taking diamant alone or in combo with anything yet? It can cross the BBB easily in terms of bringing other drugs/supplements into the brain better.

Diamant - Liquid Adamantane For R&D

Also, have you experimented with naltrexone? It can increase allopreg and much more.

I orderd a bunch of stuff as well. I'm just on thyroid (t4/t3) right now at the moment.

I've been dosing Niacinamide + preg and adamantane + 5a-dhp for just a few days, and its been amazing to see the results. My anxiety is pretty much gone, and I'm able to make basically normal eye contact in conversations now! It feels like months of progress working out and cycling herbs/andro have been made in a week. I'm ******* ecstatic.

 

[TubZy]

I've been dosing Niacinamide + preg and adamantane + 5a-dhp for just a few days, and its been amazing to see the results. My anxiety is pretty much gone, and I'm able to make basically normal eye contact in conversations now! It feels like months of progress working out and cycling herbs/andro have been made in a week. I'm ******* ecstatic.

That is awesome man, thanks for that you read my mind haha. How much niacinamide and diamant are you doing? I'm going to dose it before bed tonight. I think niacinamide benefits come more from acting as a cofactor (from increasing NAD/NADH etc.) in the brain for neurosteroid synthesis rather than just acting on the GABA-A receptor itself.

 

[5 alpha victim]

I tried 8 drops diamant and 4 drops 5a-dhp (both topical this morning) with 2 drop tyronene and 6 drops stressnon. Lovely day. Before this evening's aikido class, I drank sugary salty milk with 1 gram of inosine. Did not get crazy speedy heart-rate and air gasping tonight.

Do you know what 6 drops of StressNon comes out to dosage wise?

The StressNon bottle says that a serving size is 12 drops. Than it also says 20MG of Pregnenolone. But it's not saying if each drop is 20MG of Pregnenolone or if all 12 drops is 20MG of Pregnenolone.

I am trying to simplify by figuring out how many MG's of Pregnenolone are in one drop of StressNon.

 

[Cydanic]

That is awesome man, thanks for that you read my mind haha. How much niacinamide and diamant are you doing? I'm going to dose it before bed tonight. I think niacinamide benefits come more from acting as a cofactor (from increasing NAD/NADH etc.) in the brain for neurosteroid synthesis rather than just acting on the GABA-A receptor itself.

So far I've dosed ~100 mg of niacinamide and 2-3 drops of diamant 3 times per day. The last dose of the day with a few drops of 5a-dhp.

I was taking too high a dose of preg, and feeling weird...so I'm being conservative on my doses of everything. Still seeing results!
We are getting the treatment of this thing down to a science :)

 

[TubZy]

I tried 8 drops diamant and 4 drops 5a-dhp (both topical this morning) with 2 drop tyronene and 6 drops stressnon. Lovely day. Before this evening's aikido class, I drank sugary salty milk with 1 gram of inosine. Did not get crazy speedy heart-rate and air gasping tonight.

thanks

 

[5 alpha victim]

That is awesome man, thanks for that you read my mind haha. How much niacinamide and diamant are you doing? I'm going to dose it before bed tonight. I think niacinamide benefits come more from acting as a cofactor (from increasing NAD/NADH etc.) in the brain for neurosteroid synthesis rather than just acting on the GABA-A receptor itself.

Hey man

I have been reading through all the forums over here trying to catch up with everything you guys got going on. This is hands down the best website. It's almost like a more advanced version of Solve P F S.

I am looking to add niacinamide into the mix and noticed you mentioned
Pure encap and nutrabrand being good options.

Before I choose I was curious to know if there is an agreed upon best brand of niacinamide that the majority of you guys go with.

 

[TubZy]

So far I've dosed ~100 mg of niacinamide and 2-3 drops of diamant 3 times per day. The last dose of the day with a few drops of 5a-dhp.

I was taking too high a dose of preg, and feeling weird...so I'm being conservative on my doses of everything. Still seeing results!
We are getting the treatment of this thing down to a science :)

Cool, thanks.

Also, hopefully within the next week or two we should have some really interesting updates considering a bunch of us are waiting on our stuff to be here to experiment.

I think the diamant and niacinamide should be a sweet combo at least on paper too, diamant increases dopamine while niacinamide acts on GABA so you get a nice synergistic effect too without feeling too sedated.

 

[Cydanic]

Cool, thanks.

Also, hopefully within the next week or two we should have some really interesting updates considering a bunch of us are waiting on our stuff to be here to experiment.

I think the diamant and niacinamide should be a sweet combo at least on paper too, diamant increases dopamine while niacinamide acts on GABA so you get a nice synergistic effect too without feeling too sedated.

I definitely feel the difference. Is there any concern with taking diamant with other meds? I don't necessarily want everything I'm taking crossing the BBB.

What are your thoughts on why Etifoxine, white peony extract and naltrexone might be helpful?

Naltrexone is especially intriguing to me, as some people have had fantastic results with low doses treating autoimmune diseases.

 

[Cydanic]

Hey man

I have been reading through all the forums over here trying to catch up with everything you guys got going on. This is hands down the best website. It's almost like a more advanced version of Solve P F S.

I am looking to add niacinamide into the mix and noticed you mentioned
Pure encap and nutrabrand being good options.

Before I choose I was curious to know if there is an agreed upon best brand of niacinamide that the majority of you guys go with.

I enjoy it as well. Seems to be a very diverse and intelligent crowd.

Not sure of the best Niacinamide, but this website is a really nice resource Directory of foods and supplements without questionable additives - Toxinless

The pure encapsulations brand actually has ALA in it too...which I think might not be a great thing to take?

 

[5 alpha victim]

So far I've dosed ~100 mg of niacinamide and 2-3 drops of diamant 3 times per day. The last dose of the day with a few drops of 5a-dhp.

I was taking too high a dose of preg, and feeling weird...so I'm being conservative on my doses of everything. Still seeing results!
We are getting the treatment of this thing down to a science :)

You guys are bringing being ahead of the curve to a whole new level by getting a treatment protocol down to the science.

I'm on my second cycle of 5aDHP and I am once again amazed with how obvious it is that my brain is low on this. Also I started off in late April with my first run on prog by jumping on 5mg of Prog from health natural combined with 5mg of DHEA oral. After two weeks of this I was not crazy about it because the prog and dhea gave me a weird confused feeling in my head but by no means made my condition worse or felt as if it was acting as a D H T inhibitor like some suggest it can be. Four days ago I switched the prog with StressNon and so far I'm liking the preg better than the prog and dhea.

I'm looking to start experimenting with more of this and want to contribute in any way I can with getting the "Neurosteriod restart" down to a science.

In the "Neuroactive steroid levels and psychiatric and andrological features in post-finasteride patients" study it was suggested that there may be an issue with the pudendal nerve as well as with neuroactive steroid levels. After some brief reading on the pudendal nerve it seems not only can damage to this nerve result in ED and decreased sensation but constipation as well. I though this was interesting seeing that severe unexplained constipation that does not seem to be caused by anything specific that we eat is also another trademark symptom of PFS.

I wonder if there is anything we can take to try to stimulate or repair this nerve. I noticed in one Tubzy's posts he wrote that niacinamide solved his digestion issues and gave him sensation back. I'm curious to know if niacinamide can help with any possible issues with this nerve.

 

[sladerunner69]

Cool, thanks.

Also, hopefully within the next week or two we should have some really interesting updates considering a bunch of us are waiting on our stuff to be here to experiment.

I think the diamant and niacinamide should be a sweet combo at least on paper too, diamant increases dopamine while niacinamide acts on GABA so you get a nice synergistic effect too without feeling too sedated.

Do ever take androsterone now still? Or the 5adhp and caffiene helps alot more?

 

[Jsaute21]

No you are right, I personally tried everything under the sun that increases DHT/ DHT derivative, but I also used it for muscle building purposes prior to taking fin back in the day and it gave me a completely different response compared to when taking those same supps (proviron, masteron, trib etc.) after taking fin- it's like it barely works and I got no "mental" alpha male effect while using it anymore. It makes sense now, I feel much better physically on those supps but they don't do anything for the 5AR in the brain where the root cause is, none of those supps ever relieved brain fog, insomnia etc. they just helped with the DHT throughout the other parts of the body.

That really is fascinating. Didn't mean to be dismissive what so ever, just was suggesting that raising DHT and hopefully AR will have long term health benefits, and hopefully short term benefits as well. What do you guys feel is the best way at alter the brain chemistry up there? There has to be a way.

On a separate note, I just found out my buddy takes Propecia and has for over 5 years. Don't want to pry into his personal life, but at the same time feel as if i should make sure he stops using it.

 

[TubZy]

I definitely feel the difference. Is there any concern with taking diamant with other meds? I don't necessarily want everything I'm taking crossing the BBB.

What are your thoughts on why Etifoxine, white peony extract and naltrexone might be helpful?

Naltrexone is especially intriguing to me, as some people have had fantastic results with low doses treating autoimmune diseases.

The studies on etifoxine and peony are on the prior two pages or so that bloom posted. Etifoxine being the most superior at least on paper.

For naltrexone, it has a bunch of positive effects but the one that caught my eye was it has the ability to increase allopreg too.

Naltrexone selectively elevates GABAergic neuroactive steroid levels in heavy drinkers with the Asp40 allele of the OPRM1 gene: a pilot investigation. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[TubZy]

Hey man

I have been reading through all the forums over here trying to catch up with everything you guys got going on. This is hands down the best website. It's almost like a more advanced version of Solve P F S.

I am looking to add niacinamide into the mix and noticed you mentioned
Pure encap and nutrabrand being good options.

Before I choose I was curious to know if there is an agreed upon best brand of niacinamide that the majority of you guys go with.

Nutrabio is what most of us use, I think you meant nutrabio when you said nutrabrand.