Things were going well then I had a bad experience.

[Swandattur]

Wow! There's just a lot of information and ideas that I will be cogitating on in this thread. This discussion helped things come together for me, and I will probably be waking up with new insights from this for a while.

 

[Swandattur]

Beef liver sliced thin and soaked in milk tastes yummy cooked with onions in butter. The earlier thing about people with low thyroid having to keep liver intake low, because they can't handle too much vitamin A is helpful to know.

 

[4peatssake]

Thanks for this very interesting and enlightening conversation.

As you said, Swandattur, lots of great information to consider here.

Dr. Kane sounds like he was quite a gem! I near fell over hearing the story about him operating on himself - and not once but twice!

 

[Rayser]

RP mentioned in a recent radio interview that he gets sleep problem if he does not cook his liver with tons of fat. Chicken liver has way more iron than beef liver and excess iron can cause lots of other problems too.

Why does the liver need cooking with lots of fat?

I usually don't cook it much, the inside still being dark red, as I thought it would preserve nutrients. And also overcooked liver tastes even worse.

Two reasons:
1. vitamin A is a fat-soluble vitamin and can be used better if eaten with fats.
2. Large amounts of vitamin A like all amounts of PUFA can block thyroid function. So it's best to balance it with saturated fats.

 

[Rayser]

Swandattur - A friend of mine works in an emergency room and has to drive around with the ambulance every week for a night. He says they get calls about "heart attacks" and "strokes" all the time which turn out to be "panic attacks". You know how they treat them? Glucose intravenously.

I was one of those once. The first thing they measured was my blood sugar, and it was fine. So I think there can be other reasons.

I'm afraid some are really something else but I found that even at "normal blood sugar levels" or what the WHO calls normal you can have symptoms of hypoglycemia which can be reduced or disappear when you use a lot of sugar.

One of the things I did was I drank Pepsi, which has sugar (not the HFCS kind), and then it got much worse. Although I guess one could say the caffeine maybe caused that. I think there are gut issues that can result in panic attacks.

j. - I knew I'd read it somewhere ...

In the excessively sensitive condition produced by hypoglycemia, several things happen that contribute to the maladaptive exaggerated inflammatory response.

Adrenaline increases in hypoglycemia, and, if the adrenaline fails to convert glycogen into glucose, it will provide an alternative fuel by liberating free fatty acids from fat cells.

If the liberated fatty acids are unsaturated, they will cause serotonin to be secreted, and both serotonin and the unsaturated fatty acids will suppress mitochondrial respiration, exacerbating the hypoglycemia. They will stimulate the release of cytokines, activating a variety of immunological and inflammatory processes, and they will cause blood vessels to become leaky, creating edema and starting the first stages of fibrosis. Both adrenaline and serotonin will stimulate the release of cortisol, which mobilizes amino acids from tissues such as the large skeletal muscles. Those muscles contain a large amount of cysteine and tryptophan, which, among other effects, suppress the thyroid. The increased tryptophan, especially in the presence of free fatty acids, is likely to be converted into additional serotonin, since fatty acids release tryptophan from albumin, increasing its entry into the brain. Free fatty acids and increased serotonin reduce metabolic efficiency (leading to insulin resistance, for example) and promote an inflammatory state.

Fats in the blood-stream have easy access to the brain, and the unsaturated free fatty acids produce brain edema (Chan, et al., 1983, 1988). When brain edema is caused by vascular leakage, proteins that are normally excluded can enter. The stimulated, excited and fatigued brain exchanges glutamine for tryptophan, accelerating its uptake from the blood.

 

[Swandattur]

Rayser: That quote really contains a great deal of information. Might even explain how depression starts.
4Peatssake: Another earlier doctor in that family was an explorer mostly known for an arctic expedition. He, along with other expedition members, were on a ship that got frozen in for two years, and he and some others lived by eating rats from the ship and finally trekking out on foot. They ran into some Eskimos who no doubt saved them by teaching them how to stay alive in the arctic. The explorer named Elisha Kent Kane looks in one picture a lot like my youngest son.

 

[j.]

j. - I knew I'd read it somewhere ...

In the excessively sensitive condition produced by hypoglycemia, several things happen that contribute to the maladaptive exaggerated inflammatory response.

Adrenaline increases in hypoglycemia, and, if the adrenaline fails to convert glycogen into glucose, it will provide an alternative fuel by liberating free fatty acids from fat cells.

If the liberated fatty acids are unsaturated, they will cause serotonin to be secreted, and both serotonin and the unsaturated fatty acids will suppress mitochondrial respiration, exacerbating the hypoglycemia. They will stimulate the release of cytokines, activating a variety of immunological and inflammatory processes, and they will cause blood vessels to become leaky, creating edema and starting the first stages of fibrosis. Both adrenaline and serotonin will stimulate the release of cortisol, which mobilizes amino acids from tissues such as the large skeletal muscles. Those muscles contain a large amount of cysteine and tryptophan, which, among other effects, suppress the thyroid. The increased tryptophan, especially in the presence of free fatty acids, is likely to be converted into additional serotonin, since fatty acids release tryptophan from albumin, increasing its entry into the brain. Free fatty acids and increased serotonin reduce metabolic efficiency (leading to insulin resistance, for example) and promote an inflammatory state.

Fats in the blood-stream have easy access to the brain, and the unsaturated free fatty acids produce brain edema (Chan, et al., 1983, 1988). When brain edema is caused by vascular leakage, proteins that are normally excluded can enter. The stimulated, excited and fatigued brain exchanges glutamine for tryptophan, accelerating its uptake from the blood.

I'm not saying sugar is not a possible cause. I just think that there are also other possible causes as well. As I said, in my experience my blood sugar reading during the attack was the same as any other day, both taken in the morning before eating anything.

 

[Swandattur]

Maybe your body for whatever reason interprets the blood sugar as low. I have often had hypoglycemic symptoms when my blood sugar was the same as other times when I would feel fine. Maybe problem gut bacteria could cause the body to make this seemingly wrong interpretation. Maybe sometimes people actually do need a somewhat higher blood sugar than at other times. Doesn't Ray Peat say something to that effect somewhere? I have been doing better with blood sugar issues while staying completely off starch. On the issue of what eggs do to insulin, I notice they cause a hypoglycemic feeling for me. Eating a raw carrot actually helped somewhat on that. Not sure what that might mean. Something to do with gut bacteria and/or endotoxin?

 

[j.]

Maybe your body for whatever reason interprets the blood sugar as low. I have often had hypoglycemic symptoms when my blood sugar was the same as other times when I would feel fine. Maybe problem gut bacteria could cause the body to make this seemingly wrong interpretation.

It would be weird that having Pepsi, which has sugar, would make things worse.

 

[Swandattur]

Except for the caffeine. Did someone say something about phosphorus in Pepsi? (Hmm.. I was just now watching a murder mystery where the victim is poisoned by phosphorus.) I don't know if phosphorus in a Pepsi would cause a problem, but we should look it up. You would wonder, though, why the pepsi (real sugar, not HFCS) didn't help, and did in fact hurt. That's true.
Just trying to understand Ray Peat's ideas is like trying to learn a difficult mathematics concept. Of course practically all math is difficult for me. I like biology much better.
Edit: Here's information about phosphorus much of which seems to go along with what Ray Peat says about it. http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/phos ... 000319.htm Sounds like Pepsi would indeed have a great deal of phosphorus as someone else mentioned.

 

[4peatssake]

4Peatssake: Another earlier doctor in that family was an explorer mostly known for an arctic expedition. He, along with other expedition members, were on a ship that got frozen in for two years, and he and some others lived by eating rats from the ship and finally trekking out on foot. They ran into some Eskimos who no doubt saved them by teaching them how to stay alive in the arctic. The explorer named Elisha Kent Kane looks in one picture a lot like my youngest son.

Whoa, that reminds me of the scene from the first "Transformers" movie when Nipnicky's grandpa and crew got stuck when they were exploring the arctic. Only this wasn't real life and we didn't see them eating any rats. But they did find an alien.

Cool family!

 

[Swandattur]

They're different alright. Many of the current generations are unusual, too. I think several of these arctic expeditions got stuck in the ice when it never thawed enough in the summer.

 

[LoveBlood]

Kinda confused, hypoglycemia on the most carbs i've ever eaten? I've never had an experience like this in my life.

Last night I was eating dinner (pasta and sausages) and my temp went up to 37.3 and pulse around 100, same thing happened tonight after fish and potato wedges, both times my toes were slightly cold.

When I woke up today I got myself a glass of oj, and one wheat bagel with jelly, drank some of the oj and had half the bagel but i was feeling kind of jittery inside, i put it aside for a while and then finished it and felt fine, I then didn't eat for around 3 1/2 hours until the dinner I just mentioned and I felt fine during that period. My pupils are often dilated.

Could this have something to do with the "thyroid storm", confused.

I've never had reactions to food like this, I could miss breakfast and be out doing stuff and not be phased etc. I did some reading on hypoglycemia and it seems that the recommendation is low on carbs and mainly fat and protein to keep blood sugar level. ? I've seen claims that white sugar, juice etc. spikes sugar and then soon crashes again. ?

Not really sure what's happening or how to deal with it.

I'm feeling like I'm house-bound, what happens if I'm out and I crash? but I don't even know how to deal with it just being at home...

 

[j.]

I don't know if I mentioned this already, but while you figure things out, I advise avoiding polyunsaturated fats, starting immediately, due to their anti-thyroid effect.

 

[Mittir]

I've never had reactions to food like this, I could miss breakfast and be out doing stuff and not be phased etc.

You are taking both aspirin and niacinamide, these two inhibits free fatty acids release from tissue. When you skip breakfast you are living off free fatty acid and free amino acids turning to sugars. This can be a possible explanation for this. I think with serious problem like this you need to consult a doc and get some blood works done.

 

[LoveBlood]

I've never had reactions to food like this, I could miss breakfast and be out doing stuff and not be phased etc.

You are taking both aspirin and niacinamide, these two inhibits free fatty acids release from tissue. When you skip breakfast you are living off free fatty acid and free amino acids turning to sugars. This can be a possible explanation for this. I think with serious problem like this you need to consult a doc and get some blood works done.

No, I'm talking about before trying the peat diet. I would sometimes miss breakfast cause I was late for work etc.

...and I've stopped taking all supps etc.

 

[Swandattur]

The supplements may have been a little too much for you. Maybe after leaving them off for a while, things will straighten out. What kind of a diet were you on before? And what health problems are you dealing with? Meanwhile try breathing into the paper bag to get more carbon dioxide. Too much oxygen from the kind of breathing you do when panicked or nervous can make you light headed. The diet is enough to start out with.

 

[Mittir]

I am still bit confused. My guess is that when you are not taking aspirin and niacinamide it is easier to skip a meal and not have a problem. Because you are using free fatty acid storage from your tissue to keep you going. Were you taking aspirin and niacinamide before peat style diet? How long have you been supplementing aspirin and niacinamide and at what dose?
It may take some time for body to clear all those supplement's effect.

 

[LoveBlood]

I am still bit confused. My guess is that when you are not taking aspirin and niacinamide it is easier to skip a meal and not have a problem. Because you are using free fatty acid storage from your tissue to keep you going. Were you taking aspirin and niacinamide before peat style diet? How long have you been supplementing aspirin and niacinamide and at what dose?
It may take some time for body to clear all those supplement's effect.

I was only doing the peat style eating for a few weeks and supping during that period.

But my body doesn't seem to be reacting the same to things as it used to. I tried peat style eating before, around november/december, but didn't really notice any benefits from it, this time I did but I stopped after the scare.

 

[Swandattur]

It's probably from what Mittir said about the supplements. I haven't been trying to do this for very long and am not supplementing really. I didn't know about the supplements affecting the body that way. Important to know really. I'll have to reread the info about that and try to get it into my head better.