Things were going well then I had a bad experience.

J

j.

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My conjecture about the relationship between hypothyroidism and panic attacks is that, maybe the glucose thing is true, but also that 50% of hypothyroid people have SIBO (small intestine bacterial overgrowth), and I think that, along with gut permeability, could be related. Also, there are studies showing that people with gut issues have a disproportionate incidence of mental health problems.
 

Rayser

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andvanwyk said:
Its possible to overdo it with the liver. 400g per week is an incredibly large amount. Lamb and calf liver have huge amounts of copper ... Yes copper is good but you can easily overdo it with that amount of copper. Its also potent with other nutrients that you could possibly overdo.I started getting bad panic attacks last year after esting 50g chicken livers everyday for 4 months. Personally i try not do more than100g ruminant liver in a week or 200g chicken livers... Too potent (but in correct amounts extremely healing)

I think you are very right about the amount. I eat 150g if that and it's always veal or lamb liver.
I don't like chicken liver. I feel the PUFA in them immediately.
 

Rayser

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j. said:
This is the website where I first read about it.

Anxiety Disorder and Panic Attacks may share common Biological and Psychological causes. There are many forms of anxiety. While some are related to stressful events others seem to occur for no apparent reason. However every effect has a cause. In anxiety and panic attacks, the cause may vary from person to person. Slight abnormalities in the balance of some brain chemicals (neurotransmitters) may play a role. This is probably why antidepressants and anti-anxiety medications are useful in treating around 40% of cases.

However, recent research evidence implicates abnormal levels of commensal (usually occurring) gut bacteria that can cause the release of high levels of trace amines and toxins, both of which can trigger abnormal neurotransmitter activity in the brain. The underlying causes can be teased out and treated, leading to more effective long-term outcome.

Link

Thank you, j.! I think it goes without saying that serotonin will contribute to every disease and ill-feeling possible. It causes depression, aggression, feeling of helplessness and panic. I knew a woman who'd been on ondansetron (or some other anti-serotoninic drug) and had to quit from one day to the next. She started to panic three hours after she should have used a pill and was convinced she would die. The following night was terrible. She was crying and hyperventilating. The next day she got the drugs back and started feeling normal half an hour after the first pill. She even laughed about her behavior.
So, yes I am sure that serotonin plays an important role and yes, it's always a good idea to lower it. And since bacterial endotoxins increase serotonin and serotonin increases bacterial endotoxins there is a connection.
But I doubt antibiotics would be a good idea during a panic attack. I would try ondansetron instead.
Or potato pudding preventively.
 

Rayser

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j. said:
My conjecture about the relationship between hypothyroidism and panic attacks is that, maybe the glucose thing is true, but also that 50% of hypothyroid people have SIBO (small intestine bacterial overgrowth), and I think that, along with gut permeability, could be related. Also, there are studies showing that people with gut issues have a disproportionate incidence of mental health problems.


Yes, I am sure you are right. And yes: Hypothyroid and estrogen dominant people have more bacteria, therefore more endotoxins, therefore more serotonin.
Since 90% of serotonin is produced in the stomach and more than 90% of all mental problems is directly connected to high levels of serotonin, it will be a good idea to do something about bacteria and endotoxins.
But sometimes the serotonin problem remains ever after your thyroid problem is fixed.
In those cases I would recommend using enough sugar therapeutically and eating potato pudding and carrot salad or using one of the anti-serotonin drugs like ondansetron, bromocriptin or cyproheptadine. Unfortunately they all lower blood sugar (ondansetron and cyproheptadine not as much as bromocriptin and antibiotics) so they should be used with sugar.
I use every supplement and every pill with sugar to help my liver function.
 

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J and Rayser, from what Ray peat says sugar is good first aid for lots of problems. My Mom used to give hurt animals sugar water. I think starch feeds some gut bacteria that I have and causes insulin/ blood sugar problems for me. If I stay off starch it stays much more on even keel.
 
J

j.

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Rayser said:
But I doubt antibiotics would be a good idea during a panic attack. I would try ondansetron instead.
Or potato pudding preventively.

I don't think it's given during a panic attack. Some people have panic attacks regularly. For example, 3 to 7 times a week, in different days. I don't think the antibiotics would be given during the attack, they're given at some point in the day when the person is not having the attack, not to stop a specific panic attack that is taking place, but to stop them from happening regularly.

Also, I don't think antibiotics are that scary. Ray Peat mentioned he uses them occasionally.

During a panic attack I think bad breathing is widely used.
 

Rayser

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j. said:
Rayser said:
j. said:
One of the things I did was I drank Pepsi, which has sugar (not the HFCS kind), and then it got much worse. Although I guess one could say the caffeine maybe caused that. I think there are gut issues that can result in panic attacks. There is a minority of researchers who believe that. I read that in one place in Australia, they treat panic attacks by doing a stool test and then giving antibiotics.

I was not aware there was Pepsi with sugar instead of HFCS. Do they still make those?

Outside the U.S. I think is typical. In the U.S., it's called Pepsi Throwback.

Thank you, j.!
A pity they use genetically modified cane sugar and phosphoric acid. Otherwise I would have like to try it.
 

Swandattur

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Rayser, without the epinephrine It's okay. My Dad had this same problem and has gone without the anesthetic, too most of his life. Mostly the dentist uses the anesthetic so the patient will hold still, probably.
 

Mittir

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andvanwyk said:
Its possible to overdo it with the liver. 400g per week is an incredibly large amount. Lamb and calf liver have huge amounts of copper ... Yes copper is good but you can easily overdo it with that amount of copper. Its also potent with other nutrients that you could possibly overdo.I started getting bad panic attacks last year after esting 50g chicken livers everyday for 4 months. Personally i try not do more than100g ruminant liver in a week or 200g chicken livers... Too potent (but in correct amounts extremely healing)

100 grams of beef liver has about 17000 IU that is 380% of daily value. The reason RP suggests 3 to 6 oz of liver per week( depending on thyroid condition and metabolism) is its high vitamin A content. Excess vitamin A inhibits thyroid function and people with low thyroid needs less vitamin A than someone with strong metabolism. RP recommends use of raw cabbage juice and or serving of liver to people with hyperthyroid phase. RP mentioned in a recent radio interview that he gets sleep problem if he does not cook his liver with tons of fat. Chicken liver has way more iron than beef liver and excess iron can cause lots of other problems too.
 

Rayser

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j. said:
Rayser said:
But I doubt antibiotics would be a good idea during a panic attack. I would try ondansetron instead.
Or potato pudding preventively.

I don't think it's given during a panic attack. Some people have panic attacks regularly. For example, 3 to 7 times a week, in different days. I don't think the antibiotics would be given during the attack, they're given at some point in the day when the person is not having the attack, not to stop a specific panic attack that is taking place, but to stop them from happening regularly.

Also, I don't think antibiotics are that scary. Ray Peat mentioned he uses them occasionally.

During a panic attack I think bad breathing is widely used.

I don't think antibiotics are scary. I use tetracycline one week out of every month since Ray Peat recommended I tried them.
But that's exactly how I know that they can cause hypoglycemia rapidly even at small dosages.
I have had panic attacks in my early 20th and still own the diaries I kept to see when they happend. They seem to have been related to high estrogen/low blood sugar every time. The few times when I could force myself to eat something at the time of the attack I noticed it got better sooner.
I have seen many people during the last years experiencing low blood sugar symptoms when they tried even very low dosages of minocyclin until I started mentioning it might be a good idea to use them half an hour after meals. That usually prevents the symptoms.
I think using antibiotics can be very beneficial and it's a good idea to lower endotoxins, of course.
But one might want to keep in mind that panic attacks and low blood sugar have many symptoms in common (I posted the list in this thread) and antibiotics will lower blood sugar.
 

Rayser

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Swandattur said:
Rayser, without the epinephrine It's okay. My Dad had this same problem and has gone without the anesthetic, too most of his life. Mostly the dentist uses the anesthetic so the patient will hold still, probably.

:lol: I am going to quote that last sentence a lot in the future!
 

Swandattur

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Rayser, when my Dad was young he got a fish hook in his hand and went to Dr. Kane who would one day be my father in law. Anyway, instead of using anesthetic, which Dr. Kane didn't like, he called his oldest son in to watch while he got it out, and said,"Now, watch how a man takes this."
 

Rayser

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Swandattur said:
Rayser, when my Dad was young he got a fish hook in his hand and went to Dr. Kane who would one day be my father in law. Anyway, instead of using anesthetic, which Dr. Kane didn't like, he called his oldest son in to watch while he got it out, and said,"Now, watch how a man takes this."


I love that story! Any more where that came from?
 

Swandattur

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Even though Dr. Kane died many years ago, people still tell Dr. Kane stories around here. He was rather eccentric and came from a long line of eccentrics. His father, who also was a doctor, did an appendectomy on himself and some other operation, too. He said it was to demonstrate the use of that type of anesthetic, but my husband said it was thought in the family that he just didn't trust any other doctors to do it right.
 

Swandattur

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It seems to me that gut bacteria could play a major role in panic attacks. After all there are studies indicating that gut bacteria cause rats to be more fearful. Why not panic as well. Maybe it does it by messing with blood sugar and insulin. The blog, coolinginflammation has interesting stuff about this. The guy who has the blog does research in this area. I have noticed that starch messes with my blood sugar and insulin. I mostly stay off it, but if I splurge and eat some, my blood sugar may be not too bad right after, but in the next few days my blood sugars go high after fruit carbs even if I am not eating any more starch. After a few days off starch it settles down. So, maybe gut bacteria are the original cause of panic attacks, but it does it by messing up your insulin and blood sugar some way. So, sugar can often be helpful in alleviating the panic. I know that the body can interpret a normal blood sugar as too low and go into cortisol/adrenalin mode to fix it.
 

jyb

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Mittir said:
RP mentioned in a recent radio interview that he gets sleep problem if he does not cook his liver with tons of fat. Chicken liver has way more iron than beef liver and excess iron can cause lots of other problems too.

Why does the liver need cooking with lots of fat?

I usually don't cook it much, the inside still being dark red, as I thought it would preserve nutrients. And also overcooked liver tastes even worse.
 

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