Recovery From Undereating - Youreatopia

[tara]

from Peat's latest newsletter, Jan 2016: Nitric oxide, aging, and
adaptation--the Procrustean adaptogen

The stresses of a harsh environment that make
early reproduction advantageous, or that require
accelerated tissue renewal, also favor epigenetic
adaptations that reduce energy demands. It has been
known for about 50 years that starvation during
pregnancy reduces not only the metabolic capacity
of the first generation, but of several following
generations. For a species, this transgenerational
effect is analogous to hibernation or estivation in an
individual, reducing metabolic needs to match the
diminished environmental resources.

I think this speaks to nitric oxygen being one of the mechanisms by which chronic undereating (fuel deficiency) reduces thyroid metabolism:

Since the metabolic rate must be in balance
with the availability of fuel, the thyroid hormone,
which directly activates the respiratory enzymes, is
especially important. Just as it wouldn't be possible
for an animal to hibernate in a hyperthyroid state, a
basic mechanism for dealing with stress in
non-hibernators is to lower the production of
thyroid hormone. Nitric oxide blocks the formation
of thyroid hormone in response to thyroid stimulating
hormone (Bazzara, et al., 2007). Oxygen deprivation
(Giusti, et al., 2008) and hypothyroidism
(Franco, et al., 2006) block energy production by
increasing NOS in the mitochondria.

And IIUC, this may link it with some other degenerative conditions too:

When cells convert glucose to lactate even
in the presence of oxygen, it's called "aerobic
glycolysis," and this is the condition that Otto
Warburg recognized as the basic feature of cancer.
Nitric oxide, by blocking the oxidation of glucose,
creates aerobic glycolysis. The amyloid protein
that accumulates in Alzheimer's disease promotes
aerobic glycolysis. Recent studies have discussed
the importance of reductive stress for the development
of Alzheimer's disease.

 

[Blossom]

This mainstream news article mentions high serotonin being implicated in anorexia nervosa.
The Challenge of Treating Anorexia in Adults

 

[tara]

This mainstream news article mentions high serotonin being implicated in anorexia nervosa.
The Challenge of Treating Anorexia in Adults

Nice find.
Their treatment approach sounds like it could be promising for some.

I guess the serotonin component is consistent with mainstream use of anti-serotonin drug cyproheptadine in some countries to help improve appetite for recovery from anorexia etc. I know it gets prescribed for that, but I don't know what the dose and effectiveness of it is.

 

[PeatThemAll]

I'm well aware of what has been called the "Peat 30" (a number of pounds gained by OverPeating at the beginning). On the other hand, YourEatopia's recovery process points to thousand, maybe hundreds of thousands of calories, needed to recovery from metabolic damage.

Has anybody here been through a bottomless pit (eating) phase? More specifically when in the recovery phase, but before the 10+ fat pounds get real? And how long did it last?

For now, I'm trying to keep fat intake near zero as much as possible (fats, especially saturated, slow my digestion to a halt, which also translates to constipation, as well as giving me an overall heaviness feeling, the somebody-filled-me-with-cement type). I'm not really hungry or warm in the morning, but as the day progresses my metabolism revs up and, at dinner time, I experience that bottomless pit phase. I'm not *that* worried about it, up to a point (I recall Ori Hofmekler's glycogen reloading priority comments), because all that sugar and protein has to go somewhere. But it's also hard to believe how much rocky road-ish (cocoa powdered) rice krispie* marshmallow square I can take in the evening and not seeing that much of a difference (in the mirror or the clothes' fit).

* Necessary evil, starch, I know, it's mostly for getting a fuller feel. I mean, how many marshmallows can one eat before getting that "yuck, that's too concentrated/sweet" feel? Not so bad with some filler in between.

 

[Blossom]

Has anybody here been through a bottomless pit (eating) phase? More specifically when in the recovery phase, but before the 10+ fat pounds get real? And how long did it last?

I haven't personally and sadly I still struggle a bit with appetite but it's getting better. I know several ladies recovering using the MM method that have experienced extreme hunger phases off and on for over a year but they aren't into Peat's work. Hopefully some people here will respond who have dealt with extreme hunger.

 

[PeatThemAll]

I haven't personally and sadly I still struggle a bit with appetite but it's getting better. I know several ladies recovering using the MM method that have experienced extreme hunger phases off and on for over a year but they aren't into Peat's work. Hopefully some people here will respond who have dealt with extreme hunger.

Thanks. Hopefully some Peaters out there have been through this.

The weirdest part is that I'm not even feeling hungry. Go figure. It's more like "Uh Oh, getting that low energy feeling, better get some calories in ASAP before things get worse (losing weight, feeling depressed, interstitial cystitis symptoms, etc.)" It took me a while to accept that I had to eat / drink water on a regular basis, regardless of how I feel. A biology teacher told us that that after a certain age people should take water as medication, e.g. take some in periodically whether they felt like it or not, as people lose their thirst signaling/feeling with age, and going instinctually (at that stage) just makes life more difficult, health-management wise.

 

[Blossom]

Well your smart to take those signs seriously. I didn't have normal hunger cues for quite some time but ate based on my bodies other signals. I let the interstitial cystitis from under eating go on for too long and ended up with a mild cystocele. Luckily I found Peat and then started recovery and was able to heal from that disaster just in the nick of time.

 

[tyler]

I'm well aware of what has been called the "Peat 30" (a number of pounds gained by OverPeating at the beginning). On the other hand, YourEatopia's recovery process points to thousand, maybe hundreds of thousands of calories, needed to recovery from metabolic damage.

Has anybody here been through a bottomless pit (eating) phase? More specifically when in the recovery phase, but before the 10+ fat pounds get real? And how long did it last?

For now, I'm trying to keep fat intake near zero as much as possible (fats, especially saturated, slow my digestion to a halt, which also translates to constipation, as well as giving me an overall heaviness feeling, the somebody-filled-me-with-cement type). I'm not really hungry or warm in the morning, but as the day progresses my metabolism revs up and, at dinner time, I experience that bottomless pit phase. I'm not *that* worried about it, up to a point (I recall Ori Hofmekler's glycogen reloading priority comments), because all that sugar and protein has to go somewhere. But it's also hard to believe how much rocky road-ish (cocoa powdered) rice krispie* marshmallow square I can take in the evening and not seeing that much of a difference (in the mirror or the clothes' fit).

* Necessary evil, starch, I know, it's mostly for getting a fuller feel. I mean, how many marshmallows can one eat before getting that "yuck, that's too concentrated/sweet" feel? Not so bad with some filler in between.

Yes. I know that phase all too well. Towards the end of my two year, super-low-carb-paleo-stint, I, seemingly out of nowhere, started having uncontrollable binges. I now know it was because my calorie intake was way too little, but it wasn't intentional at the time and I didn't know I was under eating.

Fast forward to dropping paleo and coming to Peat, I still had the issue. I would lose control and probably eat upwards of 2-3k calories after a day of full meals. The more I resisted, cut back on following days, or got mad at myself for it, the more it would happen.

I realized after coming coming across this thread, and studies like the Minnesota Starvation Experiment, and chatting with other forum folks (huge shoutout to forum member Zachs, his support has been huge for me) that I was severely under eating. While it was scary to begin eating way more than I had been used to, I knew it had to be done to actually heal. I forced myself to eat at least 3k calories every day and way more if I wanted it, for three months. During those three months, I finally dropped my fear of food, the binge eating came to a close, and I gained 15lbs and at this point, 4 months later, I've proceeded to drop 7 and I eat however much I want (not counting anymore).

The binge, bottomless pit style eating, messed me up mentally big time. I now understand the problem isn't my family life, my past, my depression, or any of that bull****. I simply just wasn't eating enough. And I got mad at myself when I did eat enough. Drop the fear of food and eat what you're hungry for. If that means 3k cals in a sitting, do it and LOVE it. Trust me, the more you resist the "phase," the longer it will go on.

 

[PeatThemAll]

 

[DavidGardner]

Has anybody here been through a bottomless pit (eating) phase? More specifically when in the recovery phase, but before the 10+ fat pounds get real? And how long did it last?

For now, I'm trying to keep fat intake near zero as much as possible (fats, especially saturated, slow my digestion to a halt, which also translates to constipation, as well as giving me an overall heaviness feeling, the somebody-filled-me-with-cement type). I'm not really hungry or warm in the morning, but as the day progresses my metabolism revs up and, at dinner time, I experience that bottomless pit phase. I'm not *that* worried about it, up to a point (I recall Ori Hofmekler's glycogen reloading priority comments), because all that sugar and protein has to go somewhere. But it's also hard to believe how much rocky road-ish (cocoa powdered) rice krispie* marshmallow square I can take in the evening and not seeing that much of a difference (in the mirror or the clothes' fit).

* Necessary evil, starch, I know, it's mostly for getting a fuller feel. I mean, how many marshmallows can one eat before getting that "yuck, that's too concentrated/sweet" feel? Not so bad with some filler in between.

Yeah, I've been there many times. My metabolism is at the point now that no amount of calories from carbs/protein causes weight gain. So I agree with keeping fats as low as possible until you feel more in control. Carbs can be stored as glycogen and also stimulate thyroid. I've actually lost weight recently despite the fact I sometimes eat 4000-5000 calories in a day. More typically probably 3000-3700. I wouldn't worry about starches either, since they are effective at replenishing muscle glycogen. Do you do any kind of weight training?

 

[PeatThemAll]

Too skinny for that I need to prove to my body that it can feel safe in having its baseline (survival/maintenance) reliably met before hitting the gym. Otherwise I'll just keep melting. But I look forward to do as much exercise - without worrying about recovery/gains - like I did many years ago (during my 'padded' years).

 

[SQu]

The weirdest part is that I'm not even feeling hungry. Go figure. It's more like "Uh Oh, getting that low energy feeling, better get some calories in ASAP before things get worse

Exactly my case, though I actually need to lose weight. Ignoring the weak hunger cues I get doesn't help me lose weight. It does make all my symptoms worse though.

 

[PeatThemAll]

Started taking daytime sinus relief caplets (extra strength, 1/2 caplet every now and then). I think it's the pseudoephedrine at work, as it gives me a caffeine-like kick with a warmth feeling as a bonus, but it definitely increases my bottomless pit refeedings.

 

[LittleMissy]

Hey all,

I was just wondering if anybody has come across any information regarding general restriction paired with extreme restriction of a certain macronutrient. Specifically, I have recently realized i have been undereating consistently for about six years. And about two years ago, I went vegan for a year and ate alot of calories. However I restricted fats like crazy. And now that I'm refeeding (I track loosely on chronometer to ensure enough cals since i don't get normal hunger cues) but my daily macronutrient bars my fat is always the highest compared to the other macronutrients (however I still meet my protein and carb minimums). I was just wondering if this is related to recovering from fat restriction or just coincidental/fat tastes good and helps me eat more.

 

[EIRE24]

Yeah, I've been there many times. My metabolism is at the point now that no amount of calories from carbs/protein causes weight gain. So I agree with keeping fats as low as possible until you feel more in control. Carbs can be stored as glycogen and also stimulate thyroid. I've actually lost weight recently despite the fact I sometimes eat 4000-5000 calories in a day. More typically probably 3000-3700. I wouldn't worry about starches either, since they are effective at replenishing muscle glycogen. Do you do any kind of weight training?

You eat no fat then?

 

[tara]

I was just wondering if this is related to recovering from fat restriction or just coincidental/fat tastes good and helps me eat more.

I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me if it's this. Are you basically eating more fat because it tastes good at the moment, or for some other reason?

 

[LittleMissy]

I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me if it's this. Are you basically eating more fat because it tastes good at the moment, or for some other reason?

I'm just trying to eat enough calories, and not restrict any type of food (I do want my pufa intake tho) but saturated fats I get alot of without going out of my way. The only reason I ask is because i have read alot on here that a low fat diet helps with liver function and detoxing pufas. However I have to prioritize recovery which means no restriction of any kind. So I'm hoping once my body is healed there won't be any liver issues anymore or I can just do the caffeine/k2 or taurine or soemthing of that nature.

 

[tara]

Yeah, some people here are doing low fat versions. There are others here eating more fat (and some carbs). If your strategy seems to working for you, go for it. I think avoiding restriction seems wise in this context. You can always try at some stage to see if eating more carbs is helpful to you.

 

[LittleMissy]

Yeah, some people here are doing low fat versions. There are others here eating more fat (and some carbs). If your strategy seems to working for you, go for it. I think avoiding restriction seems wise in this context. You can always try at some stage to see if eating more carbs is helpful to you.

Oh I definitely eat more carbs than fats when counting gram for gram. Sorry if my earlier description was confusing. Let me try again. I'm not sure if you are familiar with chronometer. But essentially the breakdown of macro and micro nutrients at the the end of the say displays the individual amounts for all nutrients. And the summary of macronutrients is in relation to your ratios of protein carbs and fat. So I think at the moment my ratios are 55 carbs, 20 fats, and 25 protein (I modified them so my total protein for the day would be 100g. I don't really care about the spread as long as I get enough protein carbs and calories. However, the fat question came up because at the end of the day my fat is either equal with my protein or above it. So I was curious if it had to do with my past restriction. Or if it's just because the foods that sound good are higher in fat. Hope that clears things up.

 

[tara]

20% fat is not very high in fat - I think it's less than most people in the west eat. Helps make the food taste good, helps with digestion, helps with absorbing fat-soluble vitamins etc. Unless it is causing you particular trouble, I see no problem with it.
ETA: yes, I'm familiar with cronometer. :)