Recovery From Undereating - Youreatopia

[SQu]

I'm sorry to read this, I liked her writing and yes, I did put on a lot of weight once I stopped harmful dieting, but I think I would have anyway. As far as I can tell there is value in getting into a healthier mental state about food, it's good to see that there is a wisdom to the body, meaning in cravings, learning to trust yourself and stop the self-loathing is priceless; and I am not sure a weight rebound is avoidable if you have driven your thyroid down that low. I really sympathize with people who had really bad experiences, like you @Jennifer. And really enormous rebounds, especially those who had been anorexic, what a painful thing to happen.

I don't think there are any simple answers, any easy ways to heal, but perhaps some of it could have been avoided. Hard to say. It's hard to tell people who are damaging themselves with the excessive cult of thinness, what else to do that's a better idea. Get fat and take years to heal then gradually lose the weight? That's what I'm doing and I do think it is the best of all the bad experiences. But it's not easy. And I can't even take credit because it wasn't even a choice, this is just what happened, no matter how hard I tried to heal faster.

And like you @Dutchie, some things got worse. They've since got better again but it took ages. Someone commented that the cortisol was restrained when calories were, and when I raised calories there was a rebound that would have explained the weight gain, and probably many of the symptoms. Estrogen explained a lot too. I still have too many signs of high cortisol. But improving.

What would I have done differently with hindsight? Other than not get myself into such a trap of dieting and low thyroid to begin with? (Which I could only have done by reading Ray Peat, which I would not have been doing) I really don't know how I could have done better. I tried everything in my power, but my body pushed back for so long. Healing just took ages. It reminds me of the saying, when is the best time to plant a tree? Twenty years ago. What's the next best time? Now.

On the upside, when things do start to improve, it's rewarding. And you know that you have taken care of every health issue as much as you can, taken every bit of prevention against future health issues possible. Debunked so many stupid dieting mantras, learned so much about what serves our bodies. Also, you have to have learned a lot to even be open to trying to understand Peat, otherwise the sugar is good thing - you wouldn't even get beyond that, it's too weird. What I've learned about health on this journey has helped my family and friends in ways I never would have been able to before.

If our motivation for doing what we do is based on love for ourselves and our lives, it's totally healthy in my eyes.

Wonderful, so true. Wisdom can result from these struggles, some lessons are so valuable.

To advise someone to go against their bodies food cravings has never been proven to create a healthier organism with greater longevity

Absolutely true. The wisdom in cravings.

 

[Dutchie]

Sorry to hear that. Have you been trying to return to your old self/body weight? It's interesting how the health problems you report having from following such hypercaloric approaches are precisely the health problems that those approaches are proposed to help improve. Just goes to show that we need to be careful who we follow and clearly define the reasons why we are doing what we are doing. I'm sorry that you look worse than before you started this adventure. How do you feel? I know you said you had a lot of health issues arise. Have those since improved or still the same?

I tried,but making sure I don't go extreme with it (like overexercising,restriction etc.). Then I kind of gave up trying.....I guess it really is like they say: "you have to get healthy in order to lose weight." So,I'm more focussed on trying to stop and preferably reverse some health issues.
You made a comment above about things going wrong when eating inappropriate foods (=processed foods), however processed foods aren't the only foods that are inappropriate, in my case quality and whole foods can be as well. I guess the health state that person's in and what they can digest,(epi)genetics etc. matter.
I wish it were that simple as eat unprocessed whole foods and get healthy, bc there's this guy (Quang Tran) on YT that I watch and he makes so much himself and recreates things. I often think to myself,if I was able to tolerate everything,I'd try making everything homecooked.

Some things have improved or at least halted, but I've kinda come to terms with accepting that I could've had a more promising future and I've ruined it. It's done and I need to get on....this is the 'new normal' (to use a current popular term)

 

[stevrd]

I tried,but making sure I don't go extreme with it (like overexercising,restriction etc.). Then I kind of gave up trying.....I guess it really is like they say: "you have to get healthy in order to lose weight." So,I'm more focussed on trying to stop and preferably reverse some health issues.
You made a comment above about things going wrong when eating inappropriate foods (=processed foods), however processed foods aren't the only foods that are inappropriate, in my case quality and whole foods can be as well. I guess the health state that person's in and what they can digest,(epi)genetics etc. matter.
I wish it were that simple as eat unprocessed whole foods and get healthy, bc there's this guy (Quang Tran) on YT that I watch and he makes so much himself and recreates things. I often think to myself,if I was able to tolerate everything,I'd try making everything homecooked.

Some things have improved or at least halted, but I've kinda come to terms with accepting that I could've had a more promising future and I've ruined it. It's done and I need to get on....this is the 'new normal' (to use a current popular term)

Oh I totally get that processed foods can be used healthfully in the right context. I could see how what I wrote could be misinterpreted. What I was trying to get across is that one can certainly run into problems by only following their cravings and not making any changes to his/her environment. In this case the environment being the food choices we surround ourselves with. I of all people should know this well. I'm the kind of person who, if you surround me with pizza, wings, cookies, and donuts, I'll eat them without reservation. It took me years to get to the point where I didn't see food as a threat and now I am comfortable with this state of mind, and better off for it. But I also see the negative side of eating nothing but those foods. After a while of doing that I would just feel awful, low energy, low libido, etc... I know because I have been there. As we all know, while those foods are rich in calories, they are a recipe for micronutrient deficiencies.

So no I don't think processed foods are to be avoided at all costs, I just am making a point that we should set our food environments up so that when listening to our cravings and cues we can nourish our bodies. And this would align well with Peat's thinking as he is a big proponent of the environment being one of the most important (if not the most) things in our lives. His whole diet philosophy revolves around trying to do the best we can in the broken environment created by the food/drug industry, of which we have little control over. He's written many times that an optimal diet is not possible in our current environment today, but he tries to give us the tools to make the best possible choices given the circumstances.

 

[mrchibbs]

Reading Gwenyth Owlyn’s work will help guide one in the right direction towards health. The problem comes when you think that just because she has some valid beliefs, therefore she is infallible.
I am sure that those who gained 100+ pounds did not gain 100 pounds of fat. Look up what 5 pounds of fat looks like. Only those that weigh 400-500 pounds will have close to 100 pounds of true excess fat. Most weight that is carried in a unwell and/or growing organism is water weight.
The reason excess fat is unattractive is because it is only supposed to be present in a developing baby (a chubby baby). You can look up pictures of chubby babies and compare it to those who have excess fat. They both store fat in the same way, and it shows that the grown organism was never given enough calories and nutrition to develop their adipose tissue. Ray Peat had mentioned that men that came out of the holocaust grew breasts after starvation.

The two ways out of this stage are 1) diet down to a low body fat percentage and restrict for the rest of your life or 2) Give your body what it needs, when it needs it, in how much it asks for. The human body is rational and is always striving toward greater health. Weight is controlled by hormones, hormones are controlled by the brain/central nervous system. To think that a man-made calorie number has any relevance toward your body’s health is a very simpleton view.

Think: How many humans fail at restricting calories to achieve health? My answer is about 9/10 of the humans I know who have tried, and , in my parents generation, 10/10. To advise someone to go against their bodies food cravings has never been proven to create a healthier organism with greater longevity.

Be careful here. I've read comments like yours many times on this forum before. It's not about restricting calories. However ''eating your way to health'' ends in disaster for many.

People in a state of metabolic stress are not capable of intuitively understanding what their body needs. You learn that with experience, and good health. You do not merely supply your body with endless calories and your thyroid starts functioning optimally, with health returning magically.

There is a reason Ray recommends low-fat milk, avoidance of pufa oil, raw carrot salad, gelatin, ripe fruits, and highly nutritious oysters and liver.

We don't have the fire cracker metabolism of young babies, and especially people coming off restricted calories with a license to eat a buffet everyday, with loads of ice cream, butter and whole milk (because it's ''Peaty'') end up in a very bad place indeed. Sometimes these people have average temperatures in the 95s. Eating 3000+ calories in such a state is a one way road to fat-city.

People coming off keto, or portion control, or carnivore need to start slow, small meals at a time, and monitor their weight, pulse, temperature. If they're underweight, gaining 20 or 30lbs is fine, but if it gets to be much more than that it's gonna start becoming a problem.

Coconut oil is a safer fat because it is used for energy almost instantly. Ice cream can be fine at night to lower the stress, but it needs to be used carefully, as in all the dietary fat. Excess glucose in any given meal will be converted to fat (good fat, but fat nonetheless). The capacity for oxidizing glucose early on in the recovery is severely impaired. In such a state small meals increase metabolism, large meals increase fat storage.

Once people fix their thyroid function and metabolism, they often find they can start eating a LOT of calories and not gain weight, especially if they're a little bit active. But calories in of themselves don't solve the problem if the body isn't capable of using them properly. Start slow, and use biometrics like weight, pulse, temperature etc. to monitor progress towards your goals.

 

[Dutchie]

Oh I totally get that processed foods can be used healthfully in the right context. I could see how what I wrote could be misinterpreted. What I was trying to get across is that one can certainly run into problems by only following their cravings and not making any changes to his/her environment. In this case the environment being the food choices we surround ourselves with. I of all people should know this well. I'm the kind of person who, if you surround me with pizza, wings, cookies, and donuts, I'll eat them without reservation. It took me years to get to the point where I didn't see food as a threat and now I am comfortable with this state of mind, and better off for it. But I also see the negative side of eating nothing but those foods. After a while of doing that I would just feel awful, low energy, low libido, etc... I know because I have been there. As we all know, while those foods are rich in calories, they are a recipe for micronutrient deficiencies.

So no I don't think processed foods are to be avoided at all costs, I just am making a point that we should set our food environments up so that when listening to our cravings and cues we can nourish our bodies. And this would align well with Peat's thinking as he is a big proponent of the environment being one of the most important (if not the most) things in our lives. His whole diet philosophy revolves around trying to do the best we can in the broken environment created by the food/drug industry, of which we have little control over. He's written many times that an optimal diet is not possible in our current environment today, but he tries to give us the tools to make the best possible choices given the circumstances.

Same here....I actually have a hard time trusting that whatever I crave is what's good for me, bc I learned over the years that the things I like (and thus crave) the best are usually the foods that are not good for me. Foods that I feel I can resist (like take it or leave it) are usually ok to trust when I crave them.
Sure,it'll take willpower to resist when you're surrounded with yummy processed foods, but that was what I meant to say.....we can set up our environment with healthy options to feed ourselves, only to find out later that they weren't healthy for you.

 

[B___Danny]

Be careful here. I've heard comments like yours many times on this forum before. It's not about restricting calories. However ''eating your way to health'' ends in disaster for many.

People in a state of metabolic stress are not capable of intuitively understanding what their body needs. You learn that with experience, and good health. You do not merely supply your body with endless calories and your thyroid starts functioning optimally, with health returning magically.

There is a reason Ray recommends low-fat milk, avoidance of pufa oil, raw carrot salad, gelatin, ripe fruits, and highly nutritious oysters and liver.

We don't have the fire cracker metabolism of young babies, and especially people coming off restricted calories with a license to eat a buffet everyday, with loads of ice cream, butter and whole milk (because it's ''Peaty'') end up in a very bad place indeed. Sometimes these people have average temperatures in the 95s. Eating 3000+ calories in such a state is a one way road to fat-city.

People coming off keto, or portion control, or carnivore need to start slow, small meals at a time, and monitor their weight, pulse, temperature. If they're underweight, gaining 20 or 30lbs is fine, but if it gets to be much more than that it's gonna start becoming a problem.

Coconut oil is a safer fat because it is used for energy almost instantly. Ice cream can be fine at night to lower the stress, but it needs to be used carefully, as in all the dietary fat. Excess glucose in any given meal will be converted to fat (good fat, but fat nonetheless). The capacity for oxidizing glucose early on in the recovery is severely impaired. In such a state small meals increase metabolism, large meals increase fat storage.

Once people fix their thyroid function and metabolism, they often find they can start eating a LOT of calories and not gain weight, especially if they're a little bit active. But calories in of themselves don't solve the problem if the body isn't capable of using them properly. Start slow, and use biometrics like weight, pulse, temperature etc. to monitor progress towards your goals.

I agree, calories will not simply heal everything. Calories are just a measure of energy. Calories come along with the nutrients that heal the body, however.

When it comes to processed food, it is useful at times but it gets old very quick. If you were to ever attempt to eat “pizza and donuts” only for just a week, those foods wouldn't interest you in the slightest any longer. From my experience of eating intuitively, the foods that Peat recommends are all that I crave most of the time. Potatoes, butter, oj,raw jersey milk, lots of ice cream, kefir, cheese, fatty meats and animal hearts and raw meat and raw eggs, homemade cookies. Sometimes bread or rice but those foods become repulsive very quick.

I have been eating lots of calories (anywhere from 6-15000 calories) in the pst few months after putting my body into a state of disease. I couldn't digest anything, had mood swings. chronic insomnia, no hunger cravings, high stress, testicular atrophy, constipation and farting all the time, dark eye circles. After a some months, I estimate I gained around 60 pounds of muscle and around 30-40 pounds of fat. I can digest anything, temp is over 99 from around 95-96, testosterone is starting to come back, dreams are more real. Its only been some months but I can sense the organism moving toward wellness.

 

[Jennifer]

Reading Gwenyth Owlyn’s work will help guide one in the right direction towards health. The problem comes when you think that just because she has some valid beliefs, therefore she is infallible.

Yeah, I agree that we shouldn't think of someone as infallible but even if someone didn't follow Gwen's every guideline, like me, just following one could mean disaster so I can't say I agree with the blanket statement that her work will help guide one in the right direction. Like the reviews show, maybe it will, maybe it won't. It may convince one to end forced energy restriction or cause them to develop a new eating disorder or health challenges, depending on which beliefs they choose to follow. Knowing which beliefs are valid and worth following is often the result of having followed them. Hindsight.

I have been eating lots of calories (anywhere from 6-15000 calories) in the pst few months after putting my body into a state of disease. I couldn't digest anything, had mood swings. chronic insomnia, no hunger cravings, high stress, testicular atrophy, constipation and farting all the time, dark eye circles. After a some months, I estimate I gained around 60 pounds of muscle and around 30-40 pounds of fat. I can digest anything, temp is over 99, testosterone is starting to come back, dreams are more real. Its only been some months but I can sense the organism moving toward wellness.

That's awesome! I'm glad it's working for you. :)

Thank you for sharing your experience, @SQu. I think it's to be expected for the mass majority to put on at least some weight after restricting and/or overexercising. There are just so many factors involved with our processing of energy to even begin to understand how it could be avoided or if it even should be. Even needing less calories doesn't mean a suppressed metabolism as seen with Ray's experience where his caloric requirement was halved once he started supplementing thyroid. I no longer need to eat as much to maintain my weight since getting on NDT and no longer running on catabolic stress hormones. For me, it's a good thing. Despite my love of food, having to consume so much to maintain my health was exhausting and expensive.

 

[Vileplume]

Hello @tara and everybody on this thread. I appreciate everyone sharing their experiences. Since two major topics from this thread have been 1) caloric intake and 2) regaining/trusting appetite, I am curious how everyone is doing in this regard. Has anybody found any new insights in regard to caloric intake, eating intuitively, and honoring appetite?

Personally, I currently have no appetite and would love to gain my appetite back. Does anybody have experience regaining a lost appetite?

 

[Amazoniac]

- Refeeding David Blaine — Studies after a 44-Day Fast