Recovery From Undereating - Youreatopia

InChristAlone

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Yeah I can totally understand the reasoning for not restricting any foods and eating all high calorie foods. I have to eat a highly palatable diet or I lose my appetite and get on a viscious cycle of food fear. It's not fun to think foods are going to hurt you. It pretty much controls your life amd food is all you think about and contemplate.

It seems like long term difficulties are with persistent edema and of course the weight gain, which may by itself lead to the metabolic syndrome and insulin resistance but like others have mentioned these things are preferable to the eating disorder. Some never get their appetite back for 'healthy' foods and have to continually eat the junky foods to keep up. If diabetes was an issue I'd think just cutting back on the fatty junk foods would be a good strategy as long as food anxiety didn't take over.
 

Dopamine

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I have read a lot of the posts at youreatopia and also matt stones posts at 180degreehealth. I think that there is a general idea by both parties that we need to develop "trust" with food again and learn to eat instinctively. Eating disorders are characterized by anxiety towards food because they make us look or feel bad. We need to learn to develop trust again and follow our bodies innate hunger and appetite cues. Both parties in this sense are proponents of "intuitive eating."

My problem with intuitive eating is that there are many substances in food that our bodies can't really detect. They fly below the radar in a sense. Eat a burger with real wholesome ingredients then eat a burger with 10% soy oil and you wont notice the difference. The physiological difference however is immense especially when observed over time. We know the effects of 2% calories from soy oil vs 10% calories from soy oil in our diet... we have seen the studies and it is clear.

The tongue can detect sweet, salty, savory flavors but we cannot perceive a difference between soy oil, coconut oil, olive oil etc assuming the oils are refined and all flavors and aromas from impurities are removed. The body cannot differentiate between different types of fats. Thus while eating intuitively we may inadvertently eat mass amounts of PUFA. Accumulations of PUFA will slow metabolism at the cellular level and cause insulin resistance. So we cannot intuitively recognize PUFA as a problem but on an intellectual level we know it is from studies and science. Rays article "Food Junk and Mystery Ailments" acknowledges that many ingredients are added into the food supply which are physiologically undetectable but demonstrated carcinogens, gut irritants etc in studies... Silica, carageenan, preservatives, estrogens, PUFA, heavy metals are just a few of these "below the radar" ingredients.

I would guess that all mental illness results from this sort of disconnect between the unconscious instincts of the body (id), the conscious deliberations of the mind (ego), and the influence of society on both (super-ego).

So long as the quality of our food goes down- mental illness and neuroticism will stay on the rise.

I should also say that I have learned a lot from youreatopia and everyone should check it out. There is a lot of good evidence based info. As others have pointed out though- it is hard reconciling some of gwenyths advice for short term ED recovery and Rays advice for long term health.
 

Tarmander

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I have read a lot of the posts at youreatopia and also matt stones posts at 180degreehealth. I think that there is a general idea by both parties that we need to develop "trust" with food again and learn to eat instinctively. Eating disorders are characterized by anxiety towards food because they make us look or feel bad. We need to learn to develop trust again and follow our bodies innate hunger and appetite cues. Both parties in this sense are proponents of "intuitive eating."

My problem with intuitive eating is that there are many substances in food that our bodies can't really detect. They fly below the radar in a sense. Eat a burger with real wholesome ingredients then eat a burger with 10% soy oil and you wont notice the difference. The physiological difference however is immense especially when observed over time. We know the effects of 2% calories from soy oil vs 10% calories from soy oil in our diet... we have seen the studies and it is clear.

The tongue can detect sweet, salty, savory flavors but we cannot perceive a difference between soy oil, coconut oil, olive oil etc assuming the oils are refined and all flavors and aromas from impurities are removed. The body cannot differentiate between different types of fats. Thus while eating intuitively we may inadvertently eat mass amounts of PUFA. Accumulations of PUFA will slow metabolism at the cellular level and cause insulin resistance. So we cannot intuitively recognize PUFA as a problem but on an intellectual level we know it is from studies and science. Rays article "Food Junk and Mystery Ailments" acknowledges that many ingredients are added into the food supply which are physiologically undetectable but demonstrated carcinogens, gut irritants etc in studies... Silica, carageenan, preservatives, estrogens, PUFA, heavy metals are just a few of these "below the radar" ingredients.

I would guess that all mental illness results from this sort of disconnect between the unconscious instincts of the body (id), the conscious deliberations of the mind (ego), and the influence of society on both (super-ego).

So long as the quality of our food goes down- mental illness and neuroticism will stay on the rise.

I should also say that I have learned a lot from youreatopia and everyone should check it out. There is a lot of good evidence based info. As others have pointed out though- it is hard reconciling some of gwenyths advice for short term ED recovery and Rays advice for long term health.

You have definitely hit the nail on the head, especially with the first paragraph. I was reading studies the other day and came across one that used carageenan to induce edema in the rats they were testing on. When there is that kind of evidence for harm, how can you not "restrict" something which contains carageenan when presented with it? The difficult rub is between not being restrictive, yet avoiding things you know are harmful. Can be a tough balance to find.
 
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tara

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Both parties in this sense are proponents of "intuitive eating."
In some contexts. Olwyn is quite clear that intuition can not be relied on to recover from anorexia - by definition an inadequate appetite. Peat does say to choose foods one likes, but he also seems to suggest avoiding or limiting some things.

My problem with intuitive eating is that there are many substances in food that our bodies can't really detect. They fly below the radar in a sense.
I agree - fake food and some poisons can either fool or be undetectable to a normal appetite. Less of an issue i one's options are mostly actual food, rather than 'food-like substances'.

The tongue can detect sweet, salty, savory flavors but we cannot perceive a difference between soy oil, coconut oil, olive oil etc assuming the oils are refined and all flavors and aromas from impurities are removed.
I've never met a soy, coconut or olive oil that I couldn't easily distinguish from the others by taste on their own, but as you say, baked in with other stronger-tasting substances we may not be able to distinguish.

Silica, carageenan, preservatives, estrogens, PUFA, heavy metals are just a few of these "below the radar" ingredients.
Yeah.

I should also say that I have learned a lot from youreatopia and everyone should check it out. There is a lot of good evidence based info. As others have pointed out though- it is hard reconciling some of gwenyths advice for short term ED recovery and Rays advice for long term health.

I do think there are are areas that could be hard to reconcile between them. I don't think Gwyneth's advice is intended as being just for the short-term though - she is interested in the longer-term outcomes too. I see it mainly being a difference between situations where the major threats to health and longevity are different, and therefore the priority for different strategies.

The difficult rub is between not being restrictive, yet avoiding things you know are harmful. Can be a tough balance to find.
Yeah, and distinguishing mildly/trivially harmful from more seriously harmful.
 

milknpotatoes

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Hi everyone,

I appreciate all the replies in this thread. I too am both familiar with Peat and Olywn.

I have a bad history of anorexia athletica (male) which led me into studying nutrition. I tried ditching it all once and going with Olywn's recommendation of including junk when hungry for it (including tons of PUFA) and man did that go horribly. I've tried the same calories/perhaps more focusing on saturated fats and limiting PUFA with drastically different results. However, I still haven't solved my main issues of deep hunger and very dark blueish/purple circles under my eyes.

When I had anorexia athletica, I went from having no hunger ever (just sort of semi-hunger if that makes sense) to a hunger that won't go away. Like before I always could eat, but I never needed to eat. And if the situation where I didn't eat for a while occurred it was no problem. I never got that feeling deep down of hunger, if that makes sense. Now, I have an ever nagging sense of hunger that won't go away even after large meals. It goes away a little bit when I put on more weight. But during the refeeding it gets horribly bad (extreme hunger). It's almost positively due to FFM ratio loss that won't be restored until I overshoot by a good amount. I got down to a BMI of roughly 17 at one point and lost my libido for years, not to even mention things like severely receded gums, etc. Right now I'm hanging out at around BMI 21.

The worst part of it all is that I may never recover because I'm too afraid of overreaching my weight. I've been relatively pudgy in an attempt to overfeed but never got to become overweight. My libido comes back in spades but my dark circles don't really fade unless I have super low stress and am eating all the time, and even then it's tough to get in that zone. I need 10+ hours of sleep, good days filled with lots of enjoyment, and lots of high nutrient density foods filled with plenty of calories (both carbs and fats).

I only give my best wishes to you guys out there recovering from an eating disorder. It's tough. Really tough.
 

EIRE24

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Hi everyone,

I appreciate all the replies in this thread. I too am both familiar with Peat and Olywn.

I have a bad history of anorexia athletica (male) which led me into studying nutrition. I tried ditching it all once and going with Olywn's recommendation of including junk when hungry for it (including tons of PUFA) and man did that go horribly. I've tried the same calories/perhaps more focusing on saturated fats and limiting PUFA with drastically different results. However, I still haven't solved my main issues of deep hunger and very dark blueish/purple circles under my eyes.

When I had anorexia athletica, I went from having no hunger ever (just sort of semi-hunger if that makes sense) to a hunger that won't go away. Like before I always could eat, but I never needed to eat. And if the situation where I didn't eat for a while occurred it was no problem. I never got that feeling deep down of hunger, if that makes sense. Now, I have an ever nagging sense of hunger that won't go away even after large meals. It goes away a little bit when I put on more weight. But during the refeeding it gets horribly bad (extreme hunger). It's almost positively due to FFM ratio loss that won't be restored until I overshoot by a good amount. I got down to a BMI of roughly 17 at one point and lost my libido for years, not to even mention things like severely receded gums, etc. Right now I'm hanging out at around BMI 21.

The worst part of it all is that I may never recover because I'm too afraid of overreaching my weight. I've been relatively pudgy in an attempt to overfeed but never got to become overweight. My libido comes back in spades but my dark circles don't really fade unless I have super low stress and am eating all the time, and even then it's tough to get in that zone. I need 10+ hours of sleep, good days filled with lots of enjoyment, and lots of high nutrient density foods filled with plenty of calories (both carbs and fats).

I only give my best wishes to you guys out there recovering from an eating disorder. It's tough. Really tough.
Pm me dude, similar problem here.
 
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tara

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:welcome milkandpotatoes
Thanks for the your story.

Out of curiosity, if you feel like answering:
What was it that went so horribly with high-calorie and high-PUFA?
Did you manage to get up to Olwyn's minimum amounts reliably for many months? Did you follow your appetite when you were hungry for more?
When you switched to lower PUFA and higher SFA, were you following here calorie guidelines - daily minimums and eating beyond that to hunger?

The worst part of it all is that I may never recover because I'm too afraid of overreaching my weight.
If this is the key thing that's holding you back from a fuller recover, I'm sorry. Societal adipophobia is horrible (and this forum is not immune to it), and I am not surprised that people can get scared of being targeted by it and also have difficulty holding at bay internally the untrue stereotypes about people who are fat. I think I've read of studies showing that quite a lot of people would quite explicitly rather hasten their own death than get fat - it's pretty entrenched in the society. But maybe there is a way you can get support to not let that fear stop you pursuing a fuller recovery.

I only give my best wishes to you guys out there recovering from an eating disorder. It's tough. Really tough.
I believe you that it's tough.
Best wishes to you too.
 

Tarmander

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Hi everyone,

I appreciate all the replies in this thread. I too am both familiar with Peat and Olywn.

I have a bad history of anorexia athletica (male) which led me into studying nutrition. I tried ditching it all once and going with Olywn's recommendation of including junk when hungry for it (including tons of PUFA) and man did that go horribly. I've tried the same calories/perhaps more focusing on saturated fats and limiting PUFA with drastically different results. However, I still haven't solved my main issues of deep hunger and very dark blueish/purple circles under my eyes.

When I had anorexia athletica, I went from having no hunger ever (just sort of semi-hunger if that makes sense) to a hunger that won't go away. Like before I always could eat, but I never needed to eat. And if the situation where I didn't eat for a while occurred it was no problem. I never got that feeling deep down of hunger, if that makes sense. Now, I have an ever nagging sense of hunger that won't go away even after large meals. It goes away a little bit when I put on more weight. But during the refeeding it gets horribly bad (extreme hunger). It's almost positively due to FFM ratio loss that won't be restored until I overshoot by a good amount. I got down to a BMI of roughly 17 at one point and lost my libido for years, not to even mention things like severely receded gums, etc. Right now I'm hanging out at around BMI 21.

The worst part of it all is that I may never recover because I'm too afraid of overreaching my weight. I've been relatively pudgy in an attempt to overfeed but never got to become overweight. My libido comes back in spades but my dark circles don't really fade unless I have super low stress and am eating all the time, and even then it's tough to get in that zone. I need 10+ hours of sleep, good days filled with lots of enjoyment, and lots of high nutrient density foods filled with plenty of calories (both carbs and fats).

I only give my best wishes to you guys out there recovering from an eating disorder. It's tough. Really tough.

I really feel for you man. I was in a similar boat, my BMI got to around 22ish at my skinniest. Now it's pushing 31. All I can say is that yes, it is very hard to have fat. People look at you different, respect you in different ways, all that.

The silver lining is that to work and live you must provide value that is unattached to all that glitters. People don't smile at you just because you fit the mold, you have to actually have substance, virtue, intelligence. It is a better life if you can find the courage. But I would not blame you for staying as you are if you can deal.
 

Blossom

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The silver lining is that to work and live you must provide value that is unattached to all that glitters. People don't smile at you just because you fit the mold, you have to actually have substance, virtue, intelligence. It is a better life if you can find the courage
So true. From what I've read continued restriction can result in early and sometimes permanent disability (around the 40's) from the impacts of starvation so that helped motivate me to take recovery seriously even if it meant being a bit plumper than I was accustomed to.
 

Tarmander

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So true. From what I've read continued restriction can result in early and sometimes permanent disability (around the 40's) from the impacts of starvation so that helped motivate me to take recovery seriously even if it meant being a bit plumper than I was accustomed to.

What is a bit plumper? I feel a bit lucky that I wear my weight well, that I have muscles in my shoulders so I do not look terrible. Definitely not comfortable though.

I have a friend who is just getting over an eating disorder, but who is already overweight...I am not sure what to tell him because he feels so much better when he eats, but hes looking at gaining like 50 lbs easy just consuming 3 meals a day because all he used to eat was dinner. That is such a tough choice in our society.
 
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tara

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Blossom

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What is a bit plumper?
I overshot 10% just like the MSE guys. I won't mention my specific weight because I don't want to trigger anyone who might be the same size or heavier by associating my specific numbers with the word plump. I've held steady at the same size for over a year now but beyond some redistribution I'm not expecting to ever weigh significantly less than I do currently and I'm honestly ok with that. My BMI is in the same ballpark as yours @Tarmander.
 

Tarmander

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I overshot 10% just like the MSE guys. I won't mention my specific weight because I don't want to trigger anyone who might be the same size or heavier by associating my specific numbers with the word plump. I've held steady at the same size for over a year now but beyond some redistribution I'm not expecting to ever weigh significantly less than I do currently and I'm honestly ok with that. My BMI is in the same ballpark as yours @Tarmander.

I was just curious. I think that is about normal. My weight has stopped going higher around here, so I figure I am around where I am maxed out as.
 

Blossom

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I was just curious. I think that is about normal. My weight has stopped going higher around here, so I figure I am around where I am maxed out as.
I originally thought I'd overshot a lot more but when I considered the typical weight gain that most adults in good health experience between ages 20-60 and added that to my PRE-ED weight it was remarkably close to the weight I stabilized at last year. I'm glad you've stabilized too. It's a nice feeling to stay the same size regardless. I think the rapid changes can be unsettling even when they are necessary.
I think when it really hit home that embracing recovery was really a choice between the best chance at a decent life or an early miserable death and I felt it to the core of my being then weight suddenly wasn't so important. I confess to having more of the ARFID type of ED and always knowing I was too thin when I was too thin but I still think there is an adjustment phase for any adult who goes through dramatic physical changes whatever they may be. If I woke up one day with a different eye color, a foot taller or with no hair it would certainly take some getting used to so I try to view all of the physical aspects of healing from long-term restriction through that lens without placing value judgements on my size. I especially do not compare myself with unrealistic media images. It's really for me about choosing life but it's still one of the hardest choices to continue to make each and everyday in our thin obsessed culture.
 

Tarmander

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I originally thought I'd overshot a lot more but when I considered the typical weight gain that most adults in good health experience between ages 20-60 and added that to my PRE-ED weight it was remarkably close to the weight I stabilized at last year. I'm glad you've stabilized too. It's a nice feeling to stay the same size regardless. I think the rapid changes can be unsettling even when they are necessary.
I think when it really hit home that embracing recovery was really a choice between the best chance at a decent life or an early miserable death and I felt it to the core of my being then weight suddenly wasn't so important. I confess to having more of the ARFID type of ED and always knowing I was too thin when I was too thin but I still think there is an adjustment phase for any adult who goes through dramatic physical changes whatever they may be. If I woke up one day with a different eye color, a foot taller or with no hair it would certainly take some getting used to so I try to view all of the physical aspects of healing from long-term restriction through that lens without placing value judgements on my size. I especially do not compare myself with unrealistic media images. It's really for me about choosing life but it's still one of the hardest choices to continue to make each and everyday in our thin obsessed culture.

Is ARFID like orthrexia? I never consciously restricted calories, but I restricted "bad" foods, which ended up being the calorie dense ones. I am pretty sure I am weight stable. I can basically eat any amount of food at home that I cook. I do still gain weight if I start going out to restaurants and eating pizzas and burgers. Not sure about the reasoning behind that, maybe pufa? When did it really hit home for you that it wasn't about weight anymore, but survival?
 

milknpotatoes

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Yeah Tara I would say that it is preventing me still. But mainly because I'm not even sure that my issues will be resolved. But then again it's probably never a good sign that I have a deep sensation of hunger. It's definitely given me some perspective on life.

As far as what the PUFA inclusive refeeding did was make it very hard to lose the weight after whereas before it was never an issue. I should say I mean PUFA from seed oils, not naturally occurring CLA and vitamin E accompanied PUFA like avocado and grass fed dairy and nuts. Also my voice got less deep whereas with saturated fat and natural PUFA refeeding my voice got very deep. Likely from hormonal increases.
 
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tara

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But mainly because I'm not even sure that my issues will be resolved.
Nothing is certain (but some things are more likely). :)
But then again it's probably never a good sign that I have a deep sensation of hunger.
That deep hunger could be your body doing a very good job of telling you what it needs.
 
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tara

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As far as what the PUFA inclusive refeeding did was make it very hard to lose the weight after whereas before it was never an issue.
Ah. I can see regretting large extra PUFA intakes, given that it can apparently take a while to replace them. I haven't had any direct contact with Olwyn - I've read a great deal of her youreatopia site - but this is an area I'd really like her to read Peat's writing on, and see if it changes her perspective.
 

Blossom

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When did it really hit home for you that it wasn't about weight anymore, but survival?
ARFID is short for avoidant restrictive food intake disorder so it's a lot like orthorexia. I actually participated in an orthorexia research study.
I was in my early 40's and everything was failing. I could hardly eat because of gastroparesis, my bowels were a mess (even had a possible carcinoid tumor scare), I had persistent tachycardia, had lived with chronic fatigue syndrome for over 10 years, weakness, dizziness etc plus failing relationships and work was becoming physically impossible ... no doctor could help me beyond a celiac disease diagnosis but that wasn't enough to resolve all my issues so I landed here and things started improving. Quite dramatically at first but the more I learned the more I realized I had to completely change and stick with it.
Blossom, do those studies refer mainly to severe restricting? Do you have any links by chance?
I will work on digging through everything I've saved and post whatever links I can find by tomorrow.
 

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