Ray Peat On Donald Trump

[managing]

Well I’m glad I don't have to jump into the Marxist swimming pool to debate that tired idea though I am sure many here would like to. However I disagree with you as well. For trade to produce a benefit to both sides, each side needs to buy what the other produces. What we have now is a lopsided deal where we have opened up our markets to developing countries and they have refused to open theirs. Our trade deficit with China alone is over 350 billion a year. To pay for this we have been selling them our debt, our companies, and other capital assets. This of course can’t go on forever as you eventually run out of assets and your debt becomes worthless. Free trade is not making us better off but just more and more in debt.

I also disagree that the loss of wealth due to free trade can be explained by increases to the wealth of the US upper class. Whatever meager benefits we have gotten from outsourcing our production has gone mainly to the elite and some to US consumers but that increase doesn’t come close to offsetting the collective loss of our country to the developing world. The numbers are too large and the US elite too small to account for it all. The vast majority of the benefits have gone to all class segments in the developing world at our expense. The Chinese now have the highest number of billionaires, the largest middle class and 100s of millions of Chinese peasants have been lifted out of poverty. This is great for them but it is coming at the expense of our middle and working class.

You are repeating the tired mantra of the globalists. They are not being raised to our level but rather we are being brought down and they are being raised up to a new middling level which will be much lower than what we have today. The tide is not rising. Our pool is being drained to fill theirs. It’s been said that in politics there are always two reasons for everything that happens; the truth and then whatever lie they tell to the public. Globalism is very different in practice than the BS they peddle on the evening news. More globalism is not the answer. That is the definition of insanity.

What I think you are missing is what I mean by radical globalism. As far as I'm concerned, we've never experienced it (not yet). If, as in your first paragraph, we are trading anything other than natural resource commodities, that isn't what I call globalism. The kind of "globalism" you are talking about is where we need to keep wages low in "developing" countries so they can make stuff for us on the cheap. That's exploitation and its part and parcel of the weakening of the middle class. But, again, its not the Chinese laborers (for example) stealing our lunch money, its the oligarchs. Only when those Chinese laborers make mol the same as American, Japanese, and German laborers, will we have globalism. Then there will be no incentives for "offshoring". Like I said, simple products like window blinds or steno pads will be manufactured close to home and more complex things like cars and cellphones only slight farther (potentially) away. Transportation costs will be the major barrier to centralization. We've never gotten anywhere close to this. Maybe I need to start calling it something else. Any ideas?

 

[jaa]

Sounds like you have your own dogma. I like Ray's better though.

That's not surprising. Please explain how Ray's explanation of the outrage against Trump through the lens of the elites makes more sense than Trump just being a shitty human being who people find distasteful. I would be surprised if anyone can do so coherently.

 

[x-ray peat]

That's not surprising. Please explain how Ray's explanation of the outrage against Trump through the lens of the elites makes more sense than Trump just being a shitty human being who people find distasteful. I would be surprised if anyone can do so coherently.

Exactly because of what you said. Trump is not a shitty person. Nor is he Hitler or Mussolini. The outrage against him has been manufactured by the MSM. They continually portray him in such a negative light that the left thinks he is so corrupt he needs to be impeached after only 6 weeks in office. Not exactly a rational response to reality but maybe so if you believe half of the lies said about him. I disagree with Ray as to why the elite would want to demonize Trump, but that doesn't mean that they aren't doing so.

Now please explain to all of us how Trump is "totally devoid of character and lacking any moral fibre" as compared to crooked Hillary and her rapist pedophile husband.

 

[x-ray peat]

What I think you are missing is what I mean by radical globalism. As far as I'm concerned, we've never experienced it (not yet). If, as in your first paragraph, we are trading anything other than natural resource commodities, that isn't what I call globalism. The kind of "globalism" you are talking about is where we need to keep wages low in "developing" countries so they can make stuff for us on the cheap. That's exploitation and its part and parcel of the weakening of the middle class. But, again, its not the Chinese laborers (for example) stealing our lunch money, its the oligarchs. Only when those Chinese laborers make mol the same as American, Japanese, and German laborers, will we have globalism. Then there will be no incentives for "offshoring". Like I said, simple products like window blinds or steno pads will be manufactured close to home and more complex things like cars and cellphones only slight farther (potentially) away. Transportation costs will be the major barrier to centralization. We've never gotten anywhere close to this. Maybe I need to start calling it something else. Any ideas?

I would call it a nice fantasy. Saying that “we've never experienced” real globalism reminds me of all the neo-Marxists who say we have never experienced real Communism. It is just magical thinking that if we only tried it your way, the results would be different. Like I said before Globalism is not an economic policy but a political goal and its end state looks very different than the future you imagine. You need to look into what they are trying to accomplish before you sign on to their agenda.

 

[jaa]

Exactly because of what you said. Trump is not a shitty person. Nor is he Hitler or Mussolini. The outrage against him has been manufactured by the MSM. They continually portray him in such a negative light that the left thinks he is so corrupt he needs to be impeached after only 6 weeks in office.

I said he was a shitty person. And that's what many people who are outraged over what he has said believe, myself included. It's not because the MSM has said "Believe us, Trump is bad". It's because of the horrible vile that's been spewed from his mouth. He's not presidential. Not just because of the insane twitter rants, or vile comments, but because of his lack of intelligence which makes itself visible during every half formed stream of consciousness that comes out of his mouth. That's not on the MSM, that's on him. That's part of why people want him impeached. That doesn't mean he should be impeached for that, but it's why people are quick to look for impeachable offenses. And the Russian stuff is shady as ***t. I guess you can write of the intelligence stuff as "elites", but even barring that the weird connections are still there. To look at Trump and shrug and think poor is getting dragged through the mud by the elites is a very bizarre way to frame this. Ignoring his glaring faults is extremely suspicious.

The Hitler comments, and a few others, are hyperbole at this point I agree. But that's not why many people despise Trump. You only have to listen to the man speak. Do this a few times, pay attention to the people he surrounds himself with, and the policies he tries to enact, and the potential Russian connections and it's easy to see why people hate Trump. No need to invoke elites. Unless that's your go-to lens for all the ills in the world.

Edit: I didn't say anything about Hillary. I don't like her, even though I think she's better for the world than Trump, but that's a lesser of two evils thing and besides the point entirely. Trying to shift the discussion like that is telling.

 

[zztr]

the Russian stuff is shady as ***t

What russian stuff? What on earth are you talking about?

He's not presidential

If you think anything about Trump is particularly "un-presidential" you just don't much about American history. On the other hand, Obama has not left Washington and is remaining active in Federal politics, breaking 200 years of American political tradition. This is getting close to treason.

 

[jaa]

What russian stuff? What on earth are you talking about?



If you think anything about Trump is particularly "un-presidential" you just don't much about American history. On the other hand, Obama has not left Washington and is remaining active in Federal politics, breaking 200 years of American political tradition. This is getting close to treason.

Thanks for letting me know up front furthering this discussion would be a waste of time.

 

[zztr]

the Russian stuff is shady as ***t

I repeat: What Russian Stuff? What on earth are you talking about?

This is no small matter. You are culpable in potentially great harm when you spread these dangerous smears and insinuations. Are they slanderous? What exactly is the accusation you are making?

 

[x-ray peat]

I said he was a shitty person. And that's what many people who are outraged over what he has said believe, myself included. It's not because the MSM has said "Believe us, Trump is bad". It's because of the horrible vile that's been spewed from his mouth. He's not presidential. Not just because of the insane twitter rants, or vile comments, but because of his lack of intelligence which makes itself visible during every half formed stream of consciousness that comes out of his mouth. That's not on the MSM, that's on him. That's part of why people want him impeached. That doesn't mean he should be impeached for that, but it's why people are quick to look for impeachable offenses. And the Russian stuff is shady as ***t. I guess you can write of the intelligence stuff as "elites", but even barring that the weird connections are still there. To look at Trump and shrug and think poor is getting dragged through the mud by the elites is a very bizarre way to frame this. Ignoring his glaring faults is extremely suspicious.

The Hitler comments, and a few others, are hyperbole at this point I agree. But that's not why many people despise Trump. You only have to listen to the man speak. Do this a few times, pay attention to the people he surrounds himself with, and the policies he tries to enact, and the potential Russian connections and it's easy to see why people hate Trump. No need to invoke elites. Unless that's your go-to lens for all the ills in the world.

Edit: I didn't say anything about Hillary. I don't like her, even though I think she's better for the world than Trump, but that's a lesser of two evils thing and besides the point entirely. Trying to shift the discussion like that is telling.

Bringing in Hillary is entirely appropriate because its shows the hypocrisy of the left. The MSM continually makes up negative stories about Trump while they ignore the vile misdeeds of the Clintons. Just today I was reading about how Trump fired the NY DA and implied it was because he was investigating Trump for misdeeds. They quoted a congressman who called for yet another investigation even though there is no evidence to support that allegation whatsoever. The truth is that every President replaces the previous President’s appointed DAs. Obama and Clinton did the same thing. This is just one more non story that has been spun into a make believe scandal. As for the Hitler comparison, Seven times the media compared Trump to Hitler. This is not grass roots outrage writing these articles. People stopped thinking for themselves long ago.

As for Hillary and Bill, both have said and done far worse than getting caught saying “I grabbed her by the *****.” Read the tell all book by her former Secret Service agent for a few choice stories. http://nypost.com/2016/06/25/clinto...ine-and-mistresses-ex-secret-service-officer/. He is far from the only one telling the same stories. The fact that you don’t want to discuss Hillary is what is telling.

 

[jaa]

Bringing in Hillary is entirely appropriate because its shows the hypocrisy of the left. The MSM continually makes up negative stories about Trump while they ignore the vile misdeeds of the Clintons. Just today I was reading about how Trump fired the NY DA and implied it was because he was investigating Trump for misdeeds. They quoted a congressman who called for yet another investigation even though there is no evidence to support that allegation whatsoever. The truth is that every President replaces the previous President’s appointed DAs. Obama and Clinton did the same thing. This is just one more non story that has been spun into a make believe scandal. As for the Hitler comparison, Seven times the media compared Trump to Hitler. This is not grass roots outrage writing these articles. People stopped thinking for themselves long ago.

As for Hillary and Bill, both have said and done far worse than getting caught saying “I grabbed her by the *****.” Read the tell all book by her former Secret Service agent for a few choice stories. http://nypost.com/2016/06/25/clinto...ine-and-mistresses-ex-secret-service-officer/. He is far from the only one telling the same stories. The fact that you don’t want to discuss Hillary is what is telling.

You're trying to say Trump is good because Hillary is bad and you're trying to turn this into a left/right tribal bull****. I don't want to play that childish game.

No, just because some MSM outlets are reporting in a biased way on Trump doesn't mean he's not awful and it doesn't mean the reason people don't like Trump is because of elites. I guess there's no other way to paint Trump as a valiant little guy fighting for the greater good. I like Ray, but that's the dumbest thing I've ever seen him write. I can chalk that up to him being married to seeing all of societies woes through the lens of an evil, ruling elite. You could persuade me to your side with a good argument. But so far all you're saying is "Right! Right! Ra-ra-raaa! Boo left! Boo left!"

 

[x-ray peat]

You're trying to say Trump is good because Hillary is bad and you're trying to turn this into a left/right tribal bull****. I don't want to play that childish game.

No, just because some MSM outlets are reporting in a biased way on Trump doesn't mean he's not awful and it doesn't mean the reason people don't like Trump is because of elites. I guess there's no other way to paint Trump as a valiant little guy fighting for the greater good. I like Ray, but that's the dumbest thing I've ever seen him write. I can chalk that up to him being married to seeing all of societies woes through the lens of an evil, ruling elite. You could persuade me to your side with a good argument. But so far all you're saying is "Right! Right! Ra-ra-raaa! Boo left! Boo left!"

You don't want to play that game because you would lose it. It seems like you would much rather compare Trump to a mythical president or saint rather than who we had as the alternative. I agree it was a choice between the lesser of two evils but Hillary is far more evil and the MSM has manipulated you to think otherwise. I am not a big Trump fan. Neither I nor Ray claim him as the Savior of the down trodden. All I am saying is that he is not the evil unstable buffoon he is being made out to be and last time I checked it wasn't the downtrodden who are writing these hit pieces.

Here is a surprisingly candid acknowledgement of how the elite through the media manipulate the public: In Opinion: Why the moderate Republican right is panicking

You can keep thinking that the world is just bumping along in history from one accidental event to another but the truth, as Ray points out, is that events are rarely random and unconnected. Conspiracy by a ruling elite is as old as civilization itself. Caesar wasn't murdered by a lone gunman after-all.

 

[jaa]

You don't want to play that game because you would lose it. It seems like you would much rather compare Trump to a mythical president or saint rather than who we had as the alternative. I agree it was a choice between the lesser of two evils but Hillary is far more evil and the MSM has manipulated you to think otherwise. I am not a big Trump fan. Neither I nor Ray claim him as the Savior of the down trodden. All I am saying is that he is not the evil unstable buffoon he is being made out to be and last time I checked it wasn't the downtrodden who are writing these hit pieces.

Here is a surprisingly candid acknowledgement of how the elite through the media manipulate the public: In Opinion: Why the moderate Republican right is panicking

You can keep thinking that the world is just bumping along in history from one accidental event to another but the truth, as Ray points out, is that events are rarely random and unconnected. Conspiracy by a ruling elite is as old as civilization itself. Caesar wasn't murdered by a lone gunman after-all.

Oh please. Criticism of Trump does not mean my standards are too high. He is a low level human being by normal standards. If you accept Trump you're pretty much saying anyone above the bottom 1% of people in the states can be president.

Again with the Hillary is far more evil. Ugh. This isn't a one side vs the other. Trump is trash. He scammed people with Trump U. Inherited a fortune and passes that off as good business sense. And speaks like a 6th grader who tries to sound smart by exuding confidence. Not to mention has been caught in far more lies than any other president, props up real fake news sites, and calls sites who give him negative press "fake news". For a site as anti-authoritarian as Ray Peat, it seems strange to be defending this clown.

You say he's not the evil buffoon he's made out to be. How do you explain his twitter rants? His using conspiracy sites for news? His total lack of ability to string together a sentence that sounds intelligence and reliance on simple sentence structures and repetitive adjectives? He's not great. He's really, really not.

Spin it as a great manipulator. And conspiracies against him. There have been great manipulators and conspiracies in the past after all. That could be what's happening here! Except it's not. That's not what the evidence points to. Unless you think he's been playing a long con for 20+ years and a lot of the recent bumbles are in service to something yet to reveal itself.

Tell me, what exactly do you believe? Both in terms of Trump's brilliance, and Hillary's wickedness. I'd like to get a feel for how you interpret facts if we're going to continue this.

 

[x-ray peat]

Oh please. Criticism of Trump does not mean my standards are too high. He is a low level human being by normal standards. If you accept Trump you're pretty much saying anyone above the bottom 1% of people in the states can be president.

Again with the Hillary is far more evil. Ugh. This isn't a one side vs the other. Trump is trash. He scammed people with Trump U. Inherited a fortune and passes that off as good business sense. And speaks like a 6th grader who tries to sound smart by exuding confidence. Not to mention has been caught in far more lies than any other president, props up real fake news sites, and calls sites who give him negative press "fake news". For a site as anti-authoritarian as Ray Peat, it seems strange to be defending this clown.

You say he's not the evil buffoon he's made out to be. How do you explain his twitter rants? His using conspiracy sites for news? His total lack of ability to string together a sentence that sounds intelligence and reliance on simple sentence structures and repetitive adjectives? He's not great. He's really, really not.

Spin it as a great manipulator. And conspiracies against him. There have been great manipulators and conspiracies in the past after all. That could be what's happening here! Except it's not. That's not what the evidence points to. Unless you think he's been playing a long con for 20+ years and a lot of the recent bumbles are in service to something yet to reveal itself.

Tell me, what exactly do you believe? Both in terms of Trump's brilliance, and Hillary's wickedness. I'd like to get a feel for how you interpret facts if we're going to continue this.

You are missing the whole point. Did you even bother to read the article I linked to? Either you can see that the media is manipulating us or you can’t. This is the thrust of Ray's point that our culture is actually an organized control system.

“The engineering of consent is the very essence of the democratic process, the freedom to persuade and suggest. In practice, the freedoms of speech, press, petition and assembly — freedoms that make engineering consent possible — have tacitly expanded our Bill of Rights to include the right of persuasion.” ~ Edward Bernays, the “father of propaganda”.

“The manufacture of consent is not a new art. It is a very old one which was supposed to have died out with the appearance of democracy. But it has not died out. It has, in fact, improved enormously in technique… Under the impact of propaganda, it is no longer possible … to believe in the original dogma of democracy… Great men, even during their lifetime, are usually known to the public only through a fictitious personality.” Walter Lippman - Leading Figure in 20th Century Media

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken." ~ Carl Sagan

There was a saying in the Soviet Union that the only difference between the Soviet and the US press is that only the Russian people knew that they were being lied to.

 

[jaa]

You are missing the whole point. Did you even bother to read the article I linked to? Either you can see that the media is manipulating us or you can’t. This is the thrust of Ray's point that our culture is actually an organized control system.

“The engineering of consent is the very essence of the democratic process, the freedom to persuade and suggest. In practice, the freedoms of speech, press, petition and assembly — freedoms that make engineering consent possible — have tacitly expanded our Bill of Rights to include the right of persuasion.” ~ Edward Bernays, the “father of propaganda”.

“The manufacture of consent is not a new art. It is a very old one which was supposed to have died out with the appearance of democracy. But it has not died out. It has, in fact, improved enormously in technique… Under the impact of propaganda, it is no longer possible … to believe in the original dogma of democracy… Great men, even during their lifetime, are usually known to the public only through a fictitious personality.” Walter Lippman - Leading Figure in 20th Century Media

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken." ~ Carl Sagan

There was a saying in the Soviet Union that the only difference between the Soviet and the US press is that only the Russian people knew that they were being lied to.

Yes I've read Manufacturing Consent and have seen a documentary about it who's name escapes me. I'm familiar with the concept. I've also seen and heard Trump speak. Like I said, he's trash. He's not fit for being invited to a party, let alone being a president. Just because propaganda exists, doesn't mean everything that's been said about Trump is fabricated. Just because there is a liberal media bias (just as there is a conservative one), doesn't mean people are wrong for dispising Trump. More importantly, and to Ray's point, it doesn't mean they despise him because of a global conspiracy. Now if Trumps words and actions were incongruent with how the MSM portrayed him, then we could have a different discussion. There are ways to weigh evidence, and then there are ways to select it. Everything Trump says signals a narcissitic momo with low moral worth who would sell his own mother for a dime. Everything in his past that has come out before the presidential race is in line with that. And everything that we've been bombarded with since he threw his name in the republican hat is aligned with that. Even the republicans agreed with that until it became dem vs republican. No. It isn't a grand conspiracy. The man is human garbage.

 

[x-ray peat]

Yes I've read Manufacturing Consent and have seen a documentary about it who's name escapes me. I'm familiar with the concept. I've also seen and heard Trump speak. Like I said, he's trash. He's not fit for being invited to a party, let alone being a president. Just because propaganda exists, doesn't mean everything that's been said about Trump is fabricated. Just because there is a liberal media bias (just as there is a conservative one), doesn't mean people are wrong for dispising Trump. More importantly, and to Ray's point, it doesn't mean they despise him because of a global conspiracy. Now if Trumps words and actions were incongruent with how the MSM portrayed him, then we could have a different discussion. There are ways to weigh evidence, and then there are ways to select it. Everything Trump says signals a narcissitic momo with low moral worth who would sell his own mother for a dime. Everything in his past that has come out before the presidential race is in line with that. And everything that we've been bombarded with since he threw his name in the republican hat is aligned with that. Even the republicans agreed with that until it became dem vs republican. No. It isn't a grand conspiracy. The man is human garbage.

Its not that Trump is an altar boy or a heroic figure that will save America, it's that your extreme hatred of him is not warranted by reality. You don't think calling him human garbage is a bit extreme? You don't see it but everyone who thinks that way has been manipulated to do so. Despite what we are being told he is not going to destroy our country, or start a nuclear war, and is not controlled by Putin. This is more divide and rule over the population.

 

[jaa]

Its not that Trump is an altar boy or a heroic figure that will save America, it's that your extreme hatred of him is not warranted by reality. You don't think calling him human garbage is a bit extreme? You don't see it but everyone who thinks that way has been manipulated to do so. Despite what we are being told he is not going to destroy our country, or start a nuclear war, and is not controlled by Putin. This is more divide and rule over the population.

No, I don't think my opinion of him is extreme. He's a greaseball. It's not because I'm being manipulated by the MSM. What he says and how he acts is completely is shameful in it's own right. He's a small minded narcissist. That much is evident. There are worrying things about how that may bleed into corruption, and there's a lot of hints that him or his team may be working with the Russians and/or he may be in their debt. Do you deny that's a much greater possibility than when W was in office?

I don't think he will destroy the USA, but I think he will be more harmful than any "normal" president. He probably won't start a nuclear war, but I think the odds have gone up compared to substituting in almost any other politician. I also think he has the potential to do far more harm than any other candidate in the race given his emotional instability, his utter lack of experience, and his visibly below average intelligence. This is ignoring everything to do with Russia.

 

[signalguy]

Brilliant analysis by Peat. Man does he get it. The white working class that voted for Trump is about to get screwed over bigly by Trumpcare and that might just open some eyes.

 

[x-ray peat]

No, I don't think my opinion of him is extreme. He's a greaseball. It's not because I'm being manipulated by the MSM. What he says and how he acts is completely is shameful in it's own right. He's a small minded narcissist. That much is evident. There are worrying things about how that may bleed into corruption, and there's a lot of hints that him or his team may be working with the Russians and/or he may be in their debt. Do you deny that's a much greater possibility than when W was in office?

I don't think he will destroy the USA, but I think he will be more harmful than any "normal" president. He probably won't start a nuclear war, but I think the odds have gone up compared to substituting in almost any other politician. I also think he has the potential to do far more harm than any other candidate in the race given his emotional instability, his utter lack of experience, and his visibly below average intelligence. This is ignoring everything to do with Russia.

Manipulation is like being hypnotized. You can’t possibly know it’s happening while being manipulated. If you did, you wouldn’t be manipulated in the first place.

You are worried about the possibility of Trump being corrupt? Hillary, as Secretary of State, shook down many many Nation states and Corporations for contributions to a “charity” that she had a financial interest in. The media did nothing to investigate this other than an article or two. The fact that many people can think that Trump is more corrupt than the Clintons should tell you something about how easily our thoughts can be controlled.

 

[x-ray peat]

Brilliant analysis by Peat. Man does he get it. The white working class that voted for Trump is about to get screwed over bigly by Trumpcare and that might just open some eyes.

Not even close to what he is saying.

 

[signalguy]

Not even close to what he is saying.

Exactly what he was saying. He knows that the Dems have focused for too long on SJW issues to the detriment of their core economic issues. It was the whole reason he brought up MLK.