„Night Of The Witches“ – Day Of The Idiots

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nikolabeacon

nikolabeacon

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I appreciate the full quote from Orwell, but I still have to disagree with you on what he believed. He was a staunch democratic socialist and was definitely not a communist. A more collectivist economy is also part of the socialist doctrine.

I think it is you that may not be as open to new ideas as you may like to think. Orwell knew communism required totalitarianism and wanted no part of it. It was often said that he was trying to save socialism from communism. Again, it was Marx that developed the concept of the Dictatorship of the Proletariat i.e. totalitarianism. Neo-Marxists like to say that they would do it differently this time but sorry, human nature doesn't change. If it were possible, it would have been done so already.
I see now that you didnt understand nothing from what i was trying to explain and true message From this...as perhaps as with true message From Raymond Peat also....And why i mentioned Olympic movement(and its Religion) , Sport and current destructive Religion based on omnipotence of technology and science which fragments everything.,( As is happening now with wrong interpretations of ideas of Raymond Peat and eventually in relying solely on supplementation and medication AS ULTIMATE CURE actually WITHOUT REAL LIFE and without TRUE historical, dialectical, poetic and erotic picture of Human nature....which is very very similar to that Zeitgeist philosophy) and Synergy..And all that is closely related to wrong understanding of Raymond Peat and interpreting his "ideas" about WHOLE LIFE (no just NUTRITIONAL FACTS)in the way he didn't want it. If you read his Articles and Books which he offered to public (without interpretations written here or interpretations of some FUNNY GUYS like DANNY RODDY who only pretends that he is SO HEALTHY (ACTUALLY HE LOOKS VERY SICK too me)sitting in front of his computer And teaching others how to eat and etc.)you shouldnt have problem understanding his true messages. And i say this because it can be used here for understanding what i wanted to say with this. If you look for example that On Back Of a Tiger "PROJECT " and that Danny RODDY guy who is just ONE ANOTHER PARASITE in this sick SYSTEM you will understand many things. I mean WHO IS HE and what "research" he done to teach people how to eat and stuff their mouths with supplements (without whole philosophy of life and living) and ASK to be paid money for that. You dont know much about life of bees as I see. Work whether it Is physical or mental made us who we are now today ...not empty dreams AND faith on freedom From other people AND nature .And your story about Free open mind( without any Religion and faith in something) sounds more like someone who is so much encapsulated, confused and ENSLAVEd in this parasitic Tyranny of capitalism trying just to protect his own world of misery And life devoided of TRUE contact with nature And other People lives.
 

x-ray peat

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The above quotes are the ones that suggested to me that you aren't very open minded or willing to consider other points of view.
Just because someone disagrees with you and presents an opposing opinion doesn't make them close minded. Many of the comments were given as refutation of one or more of your points.

What is your reason for thinking this? Is it something I wrote, or are you judging me on what you are assuming to be my beliefs?
It is your unbending and unreflective certainty that communism can exist without state coercion despite all of the historical evidence against it. I have made several arguments as to why that is the case, including the fact that Marx himself believes so, but you haven't responded to any of these. I also presented a quote from Orwell saying that he was against communism because it was a totalitarian system, directly contradicting what you previously said about him. Despite his very clear language, you try to somehow redefine his words to fit your preexisting belief system. That to me is not demonstrative of an open mind.
 
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x-ray peat

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I see now that you didnt understand nothing from what i was trying to explain and true message From this...as perhaps as with true message From Raymond Peat also....And why i mentioned Olympic movement(and its Religion) , Sport and current destructive Religion based on omnipotence of technology and science which fragments everything.,( As is happening now with wrong interpretations of ideas of Raymond Peat and eventually in relying solely on supplementation and medication AS ULTIMATE CURE actually WITHOUT REAL LIFE and without TRUE historical, dialectical, poetic and erotic picture of Human nature....which is very very similar to that Zeitgeist philosophy) and Synergy..And all that is closely related to wrong understanding of Raymond Peat and interpreting his "ideas" about WHOLE LIFE (no just NUTRITIONAL FACTS)in the way he didn't want it. If you read his Articles and Books which he offered to public (without interpretations written here or interpretations of some FUNNY GUYS like DANNY RODDY who only pretends that he is SO HEALTHY (ACTUALLY HE LOOKS VERY SICK too me)sitting in front of his computer And teaching others how to eat and etc.)you shouldnt have problem understanding his true messages. And i say this because it can be used here for understanding what i wanted to say with this. If you look for example that On Back Of a Tiger "PROJECT " and that Danny RODDY guy who is just ONE ANOTHER PARASITE in this sick SYSTEM you will understand many things. I mean WHO IS HE and what "research" he done to teach people how to eat and stuff their mouths with supplements (without whole philosophy of life and living) and ASK to be paid money for that. You dont know much about life of bees as I see. Work whether it Is physical or mental made us who we are now today ...not empty dreams AND faith on freedom From other people AND nature .And your story about Free open mind( without any Religion and faith in something) sounds more like someone who is so much encapsulated, confused and ENSLAVEd in this parasitic Tyranny of capitalism trying just to protect his own world of misery And life devoided of TRUE contact with nature And other People lives.
You are right.. I don't have any idea of what you are trying to say. I realize that English is not your first language but I would suggest avoiding run on sentences, using proper punctuation and paragraphs, and avoiding upper case shouting. But honestly I don't think that would help any. As far as I can tell, the above rant is mostly neo-Marxist pseudo-intellectual mumbo-jumbo with a good helping of ad-hominem attacks against Danny Roddy and myself. You seem to have a lot of anger in you. Maybe it is you who is in need of getting out in nature to escape a "world of misery" created by your imagined capitalist oppressors.
 

keith

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Just because someone disagrees with you and presents an opposing opinion doesn't make them close minded. Many of the comments were given as refutation of one or more of your points.


It is you unbending certainty that communism can exist without state coercion despite all of the historical evidence against it. I have made several arguments as to why that is the case, including the fact that Marx himself believes so, but you haven't responded to any of these. I also presented a quote from Orwell himself saying that he was against communism because it was a totalitarian system directly contradicting what you previously said about him. Despite his very clear language, "communism because that is the dominant form of totalitarianism" you try to somehow redefine his words to fit your preexisting belief system. That to me is not demonstrative of an open mind.

Can you point to anything I wrote that gave you the idea that I have an "unbending certainty that communism can exist without state coercion"?

I'm not bending anyone's words, I just noted that, like the word "democracy", the word "communism" has been used in many functionally different ways, and I'm not convinced Orwell meant it in the way most communist philosophers defined communism. Marx believed that the dictatorship of the proletariat was a necessary step on the road to communism. He defined communism as the period which would occur after that, not as any dictatorship itself. His communism would exist after the dissolution of the state. Kropotkin defined anarchism-communism the same way (the end result, not the process of getting there), but argued a dictatorship of anything would just lead to a different form of oppression, which is certainly supported by the examples we have seen of so called communist governments. I honestly don't have a firm opinion whether "true" communism is or isn't possible. I certainly agree with you and Orwell that Stalinist style communism is totalitarian and should be avoided at all costs. I'm trying to draw a distinction between a dictatorship that calls itself communist, claiming to be part of the process of developing into communism, and actual communism. They aren't the same thing theoretically. A government calling itself communist does not make it communist any more than North Korea calling itself the Democratic People's Republic of Korea makes it a democracy. I'm not arguing for or against communism, just trying to add clarification to the discussion.
 
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nikolabeacon

nikolabeacon

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You are right.. I don't have any idea of what you are trying to say. I realize that English is not your first language but I would suggest avoiding run on sentences, using proper punctuation and paragraphs, and avoiding upper case shouting. But honestly I don't think that would help any. As far as I can tell, the above rant is mostly neo-Marxist pseudo-intellectual mumbo-jumbo with a good helping of ad-hominem attacks against Danny Roddy and myself. You seem to have a lot of anger in you. Maybe it is you who is in need of getting out in nature to escape a "world of misery" created by your imagined capitalist oppressors.
Of courses that this sound like anger to people who are confused,unrelaxed,enslaved,unrealistic and scared and not so happy about their Fake "blisfull state" or abot life of Pretending. I am sick of that kind of talking. As I get sick with anything that starts to cover up real state and stops critical thinking . Only sick or Stupid people are Pretending. When I constantly see same things And pretty boring talk every day. Or even worse... talk by someone who pretends that hE found answer to all the problems And done so big research of "complicated science " that hE know can teach others because hE pretends that hE Is healthiest And happiest being on earth....like funny guys Danny Roddy , Josh Rubin...... I dont want to pretend about anyting. And Its funny to me indeed. But I dont want it to sounds funny BECAUSE IT TURNS OF CRITICAL THINKING. You are showing again that you dont understandt the message. You started discussion about comunism because of your inner projection of confusion. Confusion is everywhere . I said that communist Is not an option by "Definition" as with everything that Is Definition. But you somehow realized that I am ortodox Marxist or Communist. In my world things dont work simple as that. I dont listen Definitions. People get confued by definitions of any kind. People ARE ENSLAVED with COmmunism, Capitalism, Anarchism, Money, Writerrs, Poets, Painters, Ray Peatism, Christianity, Buddhism, Zaratustrianisam, Judaisam, Hinduisam, Vegetarianism, Peatism, Naturalism. And many other wrong definitions. Universe dont recognize Those things. Because Universe have one rule. SYNERGY Or Self Consciousness.. And guess why there ARE so much confusion? Because people try to find answers somewhere else. Instead of asking yourself and finding inner UNiVErSAL truth which Is in EVERYONE you ARE ENSLAVED by some Stupid definitions. Its enough from me. I don't want to write anything more in this thread. Love You all And wish to You all MORE CRITICAL NEw YEaR.
 

x-ray peat

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Of courses that this sound like anger to people who are confused,unrelaxed,enslaved,unrealistic and scared and not so happy about their Fake "blisfull state" or abot life of Pretending. I am sick of that kind of talking. As I get sick with anything that starts to cover up real state and stops critical thinking . Only sick or Stupid people are Pretending. When I constantly see same things And pretty boring talk every day. Or even worse... talk by someone who pretends that hE found answer to all the problems And done so big research of "complicated science " that hE know can teach others because hE pretends that hE Is healthiest And happiest being on earth....like funny guys Danny Roddy , Josh Rubin...... I dont want to pretend about anyting. And Its funny to me indeed. But I dont want it to sounds funny BECAUSE IT TURNS OF CRITICAL THINKING. You are showing again that you dont understandt the message. You started discussion about comunism because of your inner projection of confusion. Confusion is everywhere . I said that communist Is not an option by "Definition" as with everything that Is Definition. But you somehow realized that I am ortodox Marxist or Communist. In my world things dont work simple as that. I dont listen Definitions. People get confued by definitions of any kind. People ARE ENSLAVED with COmmunism, Capitalism, Anarchism, Money, Writerrs, Poets, Painters, Ray Peatism, Christianity, Buddhism, Zaratustrianisam, Judaisam, Hinduisam, Vegetarianism, Peatism, Naturalism. And many other wrong definitions. Universe dont recognize Those things. Because Universe have one rule. SYNERGY Or Self Consciousness.. And guess why there ARE so much confusion? Because people try to find answers somewhere else. Instead of asking yourself and finding inner UNiVErSAL truth which Is in EVERYONE you ARE ENSLAVED by some Stupid definitions. Its enough from me. I don't want to write anything more in this thread. Love You all And wish to You all MORE CRITICAL NEw YEaR.
you may be ENSLAVED by SYNERGY
 

BrianF

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Children can be evil, cruel little bastards. I know as I used to be one.

Its was like children of the corn round my way at times.
 

burtlancast

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Speaking of Orwell, i find it quite peculiar for an author proclaiming to love truth to then turn around and critique Douglas Reed's work.

Could it just be that he was quite ready to join (for personal gains) a totalitarian society like the Fabians, but being decepointed by what they had to offer him, he decided to throw a tantrum and spoil the party for everybody else?

The real "truth" of the matter, (as Orwell might write) is that despite all his enlightened and highly aspiring idealistic books, he effectively remained, right to the moment of his death, the toy of this totalitarian group.

In definitive, Orwell wasn't really his own man; he could have definitely renounced to the Fabians and exposed their machinations, but he chose not to, and instead willfully remained under their influence, perpetuating the fraudulent Marx dialectic of capitalist and socialists being mortal enemies.

It explains why after his death all his private material got sealed away by them for many more decades to come.

"Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also"…. It was Marx who brought it to life. And ever since he did so the motives of politicians, priests, judges, moralists and millionaires have been under the deepest suspicion–which, of course, is why they hate him so much."

"Socialism is urgently needed, he concluded in Wigan Pier; either "a socialist party" had to be formed in Britain or "fascism is coming."

"He also urged the building of socialism, seeing the end of capitalism as the only solution to the economic misery facing Britain and the threat of fascism from Europe. Although he was never active in a socialist organization, he joined the International Labor Party in 1938, declaring, "The only regime which, in the long run, will dare to permit freedom of speech is a socialist regime."25 His blueprint for socialism included the immediate appropriation of factories and other means of production, collectivized planning of the economy and confiscation of all land from the rich. He loudly denounced those who feared "that hated, dreaded thing, a world of free and equal human beings."

(the exact false dialectic Reed exposed in his books; no wonder he got the review he got by Orwell)
 
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x-ray peat

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Or maybe Orwell realized that the utopia promised by the Fabians was a lie and a cover for a dis-topic future that he wanted no part of. It's no accident that their official crest is a wolf in sheep's clothing. As for Douglas Reed, from what I just looked at, he seems to be far from a truth teller and I would trust Orwell over this guy anyday.
 

burtlancast

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As for Douglas Reed, from what I just looked at, he seems to be far from a truth teller and I would trust Orwell over this guy anyday.

After reading Orwell's critique of Reed's book, which is a total misrepresentation, it's quite the opposite for me.
 
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x-ray peat

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After reading Orwell's critique of Reed's book, which is a total misrepresentation, it's quite the opposite for me.
Still not sure why you think Orwell was the Fabian's toy. He criticized them more than any other writer at the time.
The truth however is that both sides of all conflicts are controlled. So Orwell was used, just not by the Fabians.
 

burtlancast

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Still not sure why you think Orwell was the Fabian's lapdog. He criticized them more than any other writer at the time.

It's plainly written in Reed's books; socialism, fascism and communism are different faces of the same collectivism. Reed makes no bones about Marx and his false capitalist/communist dialectic being a fraud.

Orwell instead is playing right into it, being a good Fabian, up until his death.
 
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x-ray peat

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It's plainly written in Reed's books; socialism, fascism and communism are different faces of the same totalitarism. Reed makes no bones about Marx and his false capitalist/socialist dialectic being a fraud.

Orwell instead is playing right into it, being a good Fabian, up until his death.
Orwell also would agree that Marxism is a fraud and wrote that many of the English Socialists and especially the Fabians were just after power and didn't care about the worker's lives one bit. It can be argued that 1984 was about the Fabians coming to power. IngSoc is English Socialism and 1984 is 100 years after the founding of the Fabians.

However capitalism, especially at that time did leave a lot of workers behind, by design, so I dont fault Orwell for trying to better workers as best he saw fit. The point is that Fabian Socialism is not the only socialism there is, and he was certainly not for the Fabians.
 

burtlancast

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I dont fault Orwell for trying to better workers as best he saw fit. The point is that Fabian Socialism is not the only socialism there is, and he was certainly not for the Fabians.

Would you agree with his proposal for
"the immediate appropriation of factories and other means of production, collectivized planning of the economy and confiscation of all land from the rich"?
 

x-ray peat

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Would you agree with his proposal for
"the immediate appropriation of factories and other means of production, collectivized planning of the economy and confiscation of all land from the rich"?
no, but Im not a Socialist.. But going forward if you are going to provide a quote please give a link to the source. A google of that "quote" doesnt show anything
 

x-ray peat

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that is not a direct quote of his and the source from where they got it is seems to be another International Socialist Review. Not saying I know what to make of it but there are a lot of fake quotes all over the Internet so who knows.

However even though Orwell was a Socialist that description of his politics seems a bit extreme for him.

But anyway Im not sure I get your point. Orwell was for the working class and did what he saw fit. He saw through the Fabians and warned about them. What else could he have done.

From what I can tell your guy Douglass Reed tried to blame everything on the Jews, which is the oldest propaganda trick of the ruling elite. So who really is the toy of the upper classes?
 

x-ray peat

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It's plainly written in Reed's books; socialism, fascism and communism are different faces of the same collectivism. Reed makes no bones about Marx and his false capitalist/communist dialectic being a fraud.
So does Orwell...I just found this quote in the article you cited.
"Capitalism and Communism: Two Paths to Slavery": "Capitalism leads to dole queues, the scramble for markets and war. Collectivism leads to concentration camps, leader worship and war. There is no way out of this unless a planned economy can somehow be combined with the freedom of the intellect."32
 

burtlancast

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that is not a direct quote of his and the source from where they got it is seems to be another International Socialist Review. Not saying I know what to make of it but there are a lot of fake quotes all over the Internet so who knows.

However even though Orwell was a Socialist that description of his politics seems a bit extreme for him.

"Orwell argued in The Lion and the Unicorn that it was ‘only by revolution
that the native genius of the English people can be set free’. This did
not necessarily mean red flags and fighting in the streets, but rather ‘a
fundamental shift of power’. Whether or not it would involve bloodshed
would be an ‘accident of time and place’. It would certainly not mean the
dictatorship of the proletariat, because any English revolution would
have to involve more than one class. What was wanted was a revolt by
the great mass of ordinary people ‘against inefficiency, class privilege
and the rule of the old’. Only in this way could England assume its real
shape. Beneath the surface, in the factories and newspaper offices, in
the aeroplanes and the submarines was the real England, and it had got
to rise up and take charge of its destiny. He put forward a programme
for this revolution: the nationalisation of the land, mines, railways,
banks and major industries (without compensation), the compulsory
limitation of income inequality, democratic educational reform and the
transformation of the Empire into a socialist federation of free and
equal states
."


From what I can tell your guy Douglass Reed tried to blame everything on the Jews, which is the oldest propaganda trick of the ruling elite.

Reed reported events as he lived them. His books give facts backing up his views.
Whether the interpretation is correct or not is a matter for everyone to judge.

In any case his work cannot be resumed as "down with the Jews" quote by Orwell. That was a cop out of someone unwilling to argue the facts because he was following an agenda.
 

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