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Ray Peat On Donald Trump

Discussion in 'Political Talk, Alternative World Theories' started by docall18, Feb 24, 2017.

  1. docall18

    docall18 Member

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    GM: The US has just elected Donald Trump as president. During his campaign, Mr. Trump openly supported authoritarian sentiments like capital punishment, ethnocentricity, military action, and even nuclear weapons — many of the same things you were concerned by in the ’50s. Do you think we are seeing a resurgence in authoritarianism in the West, or is there another aspect to the overall picture?

    Ray Peat: I think much of the outrage concerning Trump’s election is driven by his clear opposition to war with Russia, and his protectionist opposition to “globalization.” Those issues are essential for the ruling class, so everything will be done to interfere with any attempt Trump makes to change the empire’s course.

    No US president has ever opposed capital punishment or nuclear weapons, and any verbal opposition to militarism has been hypocritical. Eisenhower’s belated 1961 warning about the military-industrial complex followed 8 years of trying to make “preventive” nuclear destruction of the Soviet Union possible, and the destruction of democratic or independent governments in Iran, Guatemala, Thailand, Laos, the Congo, Turkey, and the preparation of an invasion of Cuba; Kennedy’s campaign called for a more aggressive militarism. I think any resurgence of authoritarianism in the US could be dated from the 1944 Democratic Party convention, that imposed Harry Truman as vice president. There was a slight respite under Carter, during which, with Brzezinski’s guidance, the US created the mujahideen (precursor to Al-Qaeda) to depose Afghanistan’s secular government, and its policy of equal rights for women.

    Presidents, including Clinton and Obama, have been saying that the US is a post-racist society, and that no remedial federal activity is needed. Now the Democrats have the partisan stimulus to start advocating concrete measures to improve the situation for blacks and other minorities, things that they opposed when they had opportunities.

    The huge amount of money the CIA had from the Marshall Plan allowed them, starting around 1950, to shape the culture and political movements in the US, providing carrots to complement the FBI’s sticks. Their biggest achievement has probably been to obliterate coherent thinking about the meaning of “left” and “right” in politics. People with policies very much like Mussolini’s call themselves liberals, and promote war. The culture has been shaped to exclude the idea of class from political thinking. Several years ago, when John Edwards’ spoke of social class issues during his campaign for the presidency, the media immediately stopped treating him as a viable candidate. Trump’s focus on class issues helped to enfuriate his opposition, but didn’t stop people from voting. If class becomes a continuing part of political discussion, it might lead toward a restoration of democracy.


    “Identity politics” has been a powerful way to distract people from their economic interests. As soon as M.L. King made the issue class, rather than race, he was killed. Many prominent “leftists” have been agents of the FBI or CIA, in the promotion of that cultural confusion.

    The advertising industry powerfully shapes the culture, and this effect would be weakened without the broadcast monopolies. Assigning some broadcast channels for political campaigns would greatly reduce the cost of political campaigns, and the associated influence of money on policy.


    GM: Are there any other remarks you’d like to make in closing?

    Ray Peat: I’m hoping that the recent electoral shock will stimulate some new kinds of critical philosophical thinking. Understanding the culture as a control system, programmed to maintain the class system, is a first step toward discovering what we, as organisms in a half-destroyed ecosystem, really need, and what we can want and intend.


    https://reformermag.com/on-culture-government-and-social-class-306dfe8af599#.lpn9hqs0o
     
  2. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Member

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    This is as big a bunch of gobbledy-gook from *anyone* as I've read in a long time. Really disappointing from someone as discerning as Peat can be.

    There was NO ELECTORAL SHOCK. Almost 100% of Hilary's "popular vote" came from the huge population centers on the coast, that are geographically in the huge minority. Trump won something like over 2000 counties nationwide...Hilary won like 481. Is that a "minority" of the country? I think not.

    The electoral college was designed to prevent large population centers that are geographically compact from tyrannizing and forcing their views on the rest of the country. Large population centers being particularly tone deaf when it comes to the needs and concerns of those who actually produce the things that are parasitized by the city dwellers. Also, large population centers are particularly vulnerable to the machinations of demogogues. Take a look at the history of ancient Rome for examples.

    Bottom line: electoral college worked *perfectly*. It's a check and a balance against tyranny.

    And just cuz you don't like the outcome this time, be very, very wary of changing it. It may work in your favor some day. Electoral college as a construct is an objective balance, not a tool for any given ideology.

    Someone as ostensibly smart as Peat should know that.

    But I guess that's his Marxist leanings showing. I mostly overlook them because of his other valuable contributions, but dumb remarks and thinking like this should not be given a pass without commenting on them.
     
  3. zztr

    zztr Member

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    He didn't mention the electoral college, so I'm not sure what you're referencing.

    I do think his point that Trump tried to frame the issues in terms of social class is accurate, but the actual take away from the election was that non-whites in America will overwhelmingly vote for ethnic interests over class interests. It's not a top down system of control imposed by the CIA or whatever else he was insinuating. This is simply what happens in multi-ethnic democracies all over the world. Political parties coalesce on the basis of competing identities, not class. Peat is naive if he hasn't noticed this rather obvious pattern and attributes it to some elite trick of control.
     
  4. AJC

    AJC Member

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    I took "electoral shock" to simply refer to the fact that the majority of the polls said Clinton would win...and then she didn't.

    And by the way, I think Peat's first paragraph is spot on, and is a fact completely overlooked by most people (with a few Youtube exceptions, cough cough Styxenhammer, cough cough). For this I'd say he is demonstrating some discernment on the issue, regardless of the rest.
     
  5. Drareg

    Drareg Member

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    Peat is addressing the elites here with this sentence.

    To the "elites "it was a shock probably because most elites reside in major population centers as mentioned,they have followed philosophical ideals blindly for a long time,they via hubris have ignored the obvious issues and now must embrace different philosophical concepts, one of issues is acknowledging that their fellow humans are not over the moon with delight about being in the working class or middle for that matter.
    They now have access to information about a different lifestyles and are bombarded with said lifestyles,they are thinking why not me?
    People want more time to do what they want.


    That aside this is really a great interview,he is spot on imo, we have culture bubbles sponsored by advertisers and at times government agencies.

    "Identity politics" is one to throw around more,get it out there, you can see this at work in all these causes popping up,they are fuelled by desire for identity with the group,power,it doesn't matter what the cause is so long as the underlying drive is addressed which is identifying with power.
    The sad thing is the sincere causes get drowned out by the noisy populist causes with support from pop icons like Madonna,supporting this cause has more identity and power associated with it.
    Its all driven by mania and hubris.

    Meanwhile all the protesters are probably following some populist fad diet with copious amount of random supplementation with a prescribed med,health is the biggest issue we are facing,when this arrives said protesters will blame Trump for the stress he caused them,the same advertisers and governments agencies will promote this view,Madonna will make an appearance to help popularise it and the medical establishment march on........
    . :protest:protest:baaaaaaa
     
  6. x-ray peat

    x-ray peat Member

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    This is probably the most truthful statement I have heard or read from Ray about politics. He usually isn’t nearly as clear and unequivocal. I think those who disagree with him may wish to reread it as your criticisms don’t line up with what he is really saying.

    Ray is not saying that he doesn't like the outcome. He says that Trump’s win will have a good effect on the country because he was actually talking about class. Historically this has always been the dividing line in politics but has been hidden by clever divide and rule techniques.

    He never mentioned the electoral college so I am not sure why that is even an issue. The electoral college is not designed to protect us from the tyranny of large population centers but rather to ensure that every State has a proportional vote in the election based on their size and not subject to the popular vote of other States. In this election it prevented California from deciding the vote for everyone based on its lopsided vote for Hillary.

    The election results were a shock to just about everyone as all the polls had Hilary way ahead. All the betting houses had him as a long shot.

    The CIA and other agencies do indeed manipulate the thoughts of the population here as well as all over the world. Thinking that Ray is crazy for saying that is just another CIA implanted thought. They invented the term “conspiracy theory” to discredit anyone looking at the truth.
     
  7. Badger

    Badger Member

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    "To the "elites "it was a shock probably because most elites reside in major population centers as mentioned,they have followed philosophical ideals blindly for a long time, they via hubris have ignored the obvious issues and now must embrace different philosophical concepts"

    This brilliant article at link below addresses, I think, at length what above Drareg's sentence alludes to: that urban high IQ abstract thinkers are poor at common sense and believe idiotic things that defy common sense, often over prolonged periods of time. In political sphere, these people are often in policy or high executive positions imposing agendas that again defy common sense, even though to such people, their superior abstract reasoning abilities lead them to conclusions they insist are valid. They go with their reasoning above all, even if devoid of common sense:
    Clever sillies: Why high IQ people tend to be deficient in common sense
    Medical Hypotheses: Clever Sillies - Why the high IQ lack common sense

    Ideal is, of course, to work towards having great abstract reasoning abilities (including book reading) AND common sense. Seems fairly rare. Maybe there was more in the past. An example is from one of Taleb's books, where he points out the ancient Romans forced the builders of bridges to sleep under them for a a few nights after they were finished building them. Kind of forces the builders to be laser-focused on both abstract reasoning and common sense when building bridges.

    Here's a good quote from article:

    "In previous editorials I have written about the absent-minded and socially-inept ‘nutty professor’ stereotype in science, and the phenomenon of ‘psychological neoteny’ whereby intelligent modern people (including scientists) decline to grow-up and instead remain in a state of perpetual novelty-seeking adolescence. These can be seen as specific examples of the general phenomenon of ‘clever sillies’ whereby intelligent people with high levels of technical ability are seen (by the majority of the rest of the population) as having foolish ideas and behaviours outside the realm of their professional expertise. In short, it has often been observed that high IQ types are lacking in ‘common sense’ – and especially when it comes to dealing with other human beings. General intelligence is not just a cognitive ability; it is also a cognitive disposition...Drawing on the ideas of Kanazawa, my suggested explanation for this association between intelligence and personality is that an increasing relative level of IQ brings with it a tendency differentially to over-use general intelligence in problem-solving, and to over-ride those instinctive and spontaneous forms of evolved behaviour which could be termed common sense. Preferential use of abstract analysis is often useful when dealing with the many evolutionary novelties to be found in modernizing societies; but is not usually useful for dealing with social and psychological problems for which humans have evolved ‘domain-specific’ adaptive behaviours. And since evolved common sense usually produces the right answers in the social domain; this implies that, when it comes to solving social problems, the most intelligent people are more likely than those of average intelligence to have novel but silly ideas, and therefore to believe and behave maladaptively."
     
  8. Constatine

    Constatine Member

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    Wow well spoken Peat. This man's general awareness is astonishing. If only voices like his were louder. Dogma is everywhere and it is up to people like him to shift through false realities and find the truth.
     
  9. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Member

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    There are some good points made in this thread. Admittedly, I'm a little trigger happy...worn out with dummies calling to overthrow the electoral college because they don't like the outcome from it. I do agree that the first paragraph was pretty good but by the time I got to the last one in the OP I was like screw it. Comment!

    However, I still think Peat was referring to the electoral college, otherwise he would have chosen the word "election" instead of electoral. Basically, it was the electoral college that pulled the rug out from under the "elites".

    Also freely admit I should have read the whole transcript before commenting. Drive by commenting is rarely productive. In the context of what I've read so far, he comes off a little better at least on the outcome of the election.

    As for the rest of the interview...sheesh. Not even going to go there. Have fun, y'all!
     
  10. x-ray peat

    x-ray peat Member

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  11. Parsifal

    Parsifal Member

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    I don't think that this election thing is normal in the first place, people think we are in a democracy but our system is more like plutocracy it has nothing to do wih original democracy, people like Peat could never become president even if he wanted to. I also think people wanting to access to power are the worst of all, they are basically the best to access to power but no to exert it.

    People seem to forget that Trump is a billionaire, I don't think that having this much money is a sign of good mental health, 5% of people have like 80% of the world's money while this distribution of money creates problems somewhere else in the world, they are like vampires.

    Trump was a surprise, but I don't think he will be a good president. He seems to be pretty thick and to be victim of the Dunning-Kruger effect. I may be wrong, time will tell. With all he behavior analysis algorithm they have now, they can understand what people really want, would probably be easy for them to create someone like Trump from A to Z while making people believe he is outside of the empire. Almost everything on TV is fake.
     
  12. Westside PUFAs

    Westside PUFAs Member

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    That reformer website is a regressive left site. They are Brits/Canucks so they don't understand Americans. They don't understand how the US works. They don't understand why Trump won the rust belt and Florida. They don't understand that Americans are not as liberal and self hating and full of white guilt as them. Look at the other articles on that site. They are anti-Israel therefore pro-terrorist and there are some other silly articles and cartoons on that site. The guy interviewing Peat is a social justice warrior. He believes that "Mr. Trump openly supported authoritarian sentiments like ethnocentricity, military action." I don't think he knows what ethnocentrism is. He talks about military action as if it were always a bad thing. It's a dangerous world with a few bad actors in it who can destroy it by gaining access to nuclear bombs. Sometimes military action is needed.

    This interview was already posted a few months ago so I'm not sure why you're posting it again.

    .
     
  13. schultz

    schultz Member

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    The US government is one of the worst villains in the history of the world. Somehow it's okay for the US to go and kill people in other countries? Apparently it's not a crime when it's the United States.

    "Well, when the president does it, that means that it is not illegal." - Richard Nixon


    You are right and the US actually used nuclear weapons on a country! They dropped them on civilians! A quarter of a million people were killed or injured. To put that in perspective, 9,000 people were killed or injured during 9/11.

    Here is a list of countries the US has bombed:

    Korea and China 1950-53 (Korean War)
    Guatemala 1954
    Indonesia 1958
    Cuba 1959-1961
    Guatemala 1960
    Congo 1964
    Laos 1964-73
    Vietnam 1961-73
    Cambodia 1969-70
    Guatemala 1967-69
    Grenada 1983
    Lebanon 1983, 1984 (both Lebanese and Syrian targets)
    Libya 1986
    El Salvador 1980s
    Nicaragua 1980s
    Iran 1987
    Panama 1989
    Iraq 1991 (Persian Gulf War)
    Kuwait 1991
    Somalia 1993
    Bosnia 1994, 1995
    Sudan 1998
    Afghanistan 1998
    Yugoslavia 1999
    Yemen 2002
    Iraq 1991-2003 (US/UK on regular basis)
    Iraq 2003-2015
    Afghanistan 2001-2015
    Pakistan 2007-2015
    Somalia 2007-8, 2011
    Yemen 2009, 2011
    Libya 2011, 2015
    Syria 2014-2016


    Not to mention all the meddling the US and CIA have done in other countries, putting various people in power who will serve US interests and arming them. Lots and lots of people have died from this.

    1973 Chilean coup d'état - Wikipedia
    1953 Iranian coup d'état - Wikipedia

    "The CIA spent $8 million in the three years between 1970 and the military coup in September 1973, with over $3 million in 1972 alone. Covert American activity was present in almost every major election in Chile in the decade between 1963 and 1973, but its actual effect on electoral outcomes is not altogether clear."

    Funny, because you guys were freaking out about potential Russian involvement in your last election. I wonder how many elections the US has interfered with in other countries?

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-has...-37-victim-nations-since-world-war-ii/5492051
    "From 1965 to 1973 during the Vietnam War the U.S. dropped over two million tons of bombs on Laos – more than was dropped in WWII by both sides. Over a quarter of the population became refugees. This was later called a “secret war,” since it occurred at the same time as the Vietnam War, but got little press."

    "In December, 1989 U.S. troops invaded Panama, ostensibly to arrest Manuel Noriega, that nation’s president. This was an example of the U.S. view that it is the master of the world and can arrest anyone it wants to. For a number of years before that he had worked for the CIA, but fell out of favor partially because he was not an opponent of the Sandinistas in Nicaragua. (1) It has been estimated that between 500 and 4,000 people died."

    According to a Vietnamese government statement in 1995 the number of deaths of civilians and military personnel during the Vietnam War was 5.1 million.

    "I want anything that can fly to go in there and crack the hell out of them" - Richard Nixon

    My Lai Massacre - Wikipedia


    War is rarely okay.

    Here is a good quote:

    "America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own." - John Quincy Adams
     
  14. Westside PUFAs

    Westside PUFAs Member

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    In short, don't come crying to us when crazy people start WW3. See if your libtard Trudeau will help you. See if your Canuck military will be able to do anything.

    .
     
  15. Simonsays

    Simonsays Member

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    I love Rays simple class war politics, so refreshing from the mainstream.

    He sees Trump as hopefully a latter day Kerensky, a stepping stone to the real revolution , when the American working class will develop class consciousness ( as opposed to the American dream myth) unite and overthrow their capitalist ruling class oppressors, sweeping aside bourgeois irrelevancies such as identity politics, democracy, religion, liberalism, conservatism, libertarianism, globalisation. Economic nationalism (the latest fad, see Bannon) might also help in the short run (by opposing globalisation) to bring about the inevitable clash of good v evil (religious analogy). I know the God v Satan thing big on RPF. But to the likes of Ray religion is pure opium for the masses and distracts the working class from their inevitable battle with their rulers.

    Only problem, most revolutions are reactionary in nature and lead to a new ruling elite/class and Party dictatorship, which then exploit the working class again. See Russian and Chinese revolutions . Trotskys answer to this was permanent revolution!

    I know his sympathies are anarchist and total freedom from, parties, rulers and all forms of exploitation , but they were destroyed by the Communists in Ukraine and Spain, where their beliefs flowered for a short while. Anarchists tend to struggle with revolution, as they are not ruthless enough and so vehemently anti coercion/ authoritarian.

    During the Spanish civil war , anarchist units used to vote first on whether to obey their officers orders!

    People like Peat dont want to be President or anyone else be President. Presidents exert power and govern.

    See Kropotkin, (Rays a big fan) if youre interested.
     
  16. x-ray peat

    x-ray peat Member

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    This has been said before but it always amazes me how we all project our political views upon Ray. I for one do not see him as a Marxist, Anarchist, or Trotskyite. You can recognize class as the key dividing line in politics without being a Marxist or revolutionist. IMO Marxism was funded by the aristocracy to destroy their newly empowered enemies, the Bourgeoisie. That is why Marx never wrote about the abuses of the nobility or the aristocracy even though they had enslaved mankind for thousands of years. The Bourgeoisie were the middle class merchants and industrialists who were responsible for freeing the great mass of men from the boot of their feudal overlords. Workers were not forced to leave the feudal estates for the cities but left voluntarily because those factory jobs though difficult paid a lot more than they made as a peasant. The high living standards we have today are the result of the bourgeoisie. They are not the enemy. In fact the majority of people reading this are bourgeoisie i.e. middle class.

    Communism and socialism is just a clever trick to reinstate the feudal era with the same blood lines back in charge. That's why every time its been implemented it always ends up in the same two class dictatorship like during the dark ages. Marx claimed that the Dictatorship of the Proletariat will just magically fade away but this is just a cruel joke. No dictatorship in history has ever just faded away without violent overthrow.
     
  17. Such_Saturation

    Such_Saturation Member

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  18. Westside PUFAs

    Westside PUFAs Member

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    @Simonsays @x-ray peat You guys are being too easy on Peat or you misread or misunderstood when he said this:

    "Presidents, including Clinton and Obama, have been saying that the US is a post-racist society, and that no remedial federal activity is needed. Now the Democrats have the partisan stimulus to start advocating concrete measures to improve the situation for blacks and other minorities, things that they opposed when they had opportunities."

    “Identity politics” has been a powerful way to distract people from their economic interests. As soon as M.L. King made the issue class, rather than race, he was killed. Many prominent “leftists” have been agents of the FBI or CIA, in the promotion of that cultural confusion."

    "Slavery and the annihilation of the native population were part of the context of their understanding of liberty."

    "The Occupy movement was manipulated away from making any demands that would have had the possibility to turn it into a party and gain broad support—much of the 99%, maybe half of the voters—could have seen it as their representative, leaving the other parties to divide the other half. The requirement for consensus allowed many special issues to be heard, but it kept the essential mass demands from being made. The FBI papers that were released under FOIA showed that the powers had identified the leaders at the beginning of the demonstrations, and had snipers ready to eliminate them if they became a threat, but the government organized the police to suppress the movement without having to kill the leaders, and the lack of specific political demands kept it from spreading. Organized action is essential, but I think it has to work like an organism, with learning and thinking integrated with action. Dissent has to be accepted within the movement, to permit the bulk of it to take action, while the dissenters keep working on their issues. Several groups with several demands wouldn’t keep the larger group from succeeding with the goals they have in common, such things as eliminating the absolute power of the ruling class. Julian Assange said “Parties should be fun. They should put the word party back into politics.” The political party should be something integral to life."

    I'm very disappointed to read that Peat wrote those things. He's out of touch with what's really going on with the left today. I wonder if he supports the vitriol and violence coming from the left right now. Sigh. Oh well. I like Peat for his views on natural health, not politics.

    .
     
  19. x-ray peat

    x-ray peat Member

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  20. Such_Saturation

    Such_Saturation Member

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    How holistic of you
     
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