Progest-e dosages for a girl w est/androgen dominance

[Rick K]

Is It Safe To Give A 4 Year Old Girl Progesterone?

Hello everyone! My daughter (who is 4) was born with high estrogen levels, the doctor knew because she had swollen nipples. Her doctor at the time said that we would wait it out and around 6 months the swelling disappeared so I thought nothing of it. I have successfully used progesterone for...

raypeatforum.com

Pre-pubertal phase​

It's given to pre-term male and female infants with respiratory distress syndrome. It's effective for calming, and for any sleep issues in babies and children. Babies have been bathed in it for 9 months of their lives prior to birth.

Progesterone is the only hormone that does not adversely affect a male or female baby or child. So if some should rub off an adult using it, no harm will come. Unlike testosterone or oestrogen, which cause serious side effects in a male or female baby or child.

If progesterone is used on an infant or child, this is the only case when size does matter.

1mg of progesterone or a pin head amount of cream can be applied to infants,
older children use 5-10mg.
It only needs to be used for easing the child over a rough patch.
It helps with adverse symptoms experienced prior to puberty, and any found while going through puberty. Menstruation starts about two years after puberty begins and is known as menarche.

These two years can bring mood swings, temper tantrums, defiant behaviour, skin outbreaks and more. Oestrogen and testosterone levels are rising, but it's not until menarche occurs and with it ovulation, does progesterone production begin.

 

[Rick K]

Thsnk you for that little jewel Rick K! Let's define natural :)

Progesterone

Natural progesterone provides a safe, convenient remedy to a wide range of health problems.

www.progesteronetherapy.com

Well worth the read. She'll walk you through what's natural.

 

[heliocentrisms]

• Above all have a vitamin D test done, and take a minimum of 5000 IU's per day, bringing the level in the blood to 50ng/ml (125nmol/L) or above. A lack of vitamin D is found in PCO, with many authorities believing it could be the main contributing factor. A lack also leads to hyperparathyroidism which is often present in PCO. High levels of parathyroid hormone suppresses thyroid activity, leading to a higher than normal TSH level. The year round level of vitamin D should be 50ng/ml (125nmol/L) or higher.
• A lack of vitamin D reduces the benefits of progesterone.
• Use between 150-250mg/day progesterone, this helps stabilise blood sugar and suppresses androgen production. It also helps to correct ovarian malfunction.
• Take the B vitamin inositol, this aids in reversing insulin resistance and stabilizing glucose levels. Studies have shown this restores gonadal function.
• Take the antioxidant amino acids L-arginine and N-acetyl cysteine, studies have shown these restore gonadal function.
• The amino acids L-glutamine and L-glycine are very helpful. The brain can use them in place of glucose for energy, so they stop all binging, tiredness, cravings for sugary foods and alcohol. Glutamine also heals the lining of the gut, it boosts the immune system and is the most abundant amino acid in the muscles, so helping with muscle weakness. These two amino acids are also two of the three precursors to glutathione, which apart from vitamin D, is the most important antioxidant the body makes. The third amino precursor is cysteine, which is essential to take.
• MCT oil (medium chain triglyceride) is another excellent source of energy which is not converted to fat, but can be used directly by the cells for energy, take 5-60ml/day. It's extracted from coconut oil and comprises 60% caprylic acid, which kills candida, and 40% capric acid.

I will try all of these things when I get the opportunity to.

I don't have access to MCT oil, but I do have very high quality coconut oil which I'm trying to have every day, it does sometimes seem to give me a detox reaction and makes my temperature and pulse go right up.

Thx so much for the reply :).

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Progesterone

Natural progesterone provides a safe, convenient remedy to a wide range of health problems.

www.progesteronetherapy.com

Well worth the read. She'll walk you through what's natural.

I really don't listen to anybody but Peat Rick, too many conflicting opinion for me to find the pepper through the fly poop.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

I really don't listen to anybody but Peat Rick, too many conflicting opinion for me to find the pepper through the fly poop.

You are still my Hans Rick K :)

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

"Except iron deficiency (and resulting anaemia) is much more common in women than in men [1]. Coffee intake should likely be reduced for women with iron deficiency issues, and avoided altogether for children and adolescents."-Ray Peat

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Good luck girl!

 

[mrchibbs]

Yes, I had a stressful childhood bc of my parent's divorce which lead to what I suspect was early puberty & hypothyroidism and I had immune issues since I was a baby after getting the MMR vaccine. I went on a lot of diets when I was 11-14 like vegan, HCLF, LCHF, paleo, and the worst of all the GAPS diet which completely messed me up. I had agoraphobia since late 2018 where I never left the house if I could help it, and I already didn't get much sun to begin with living in the PNW. (Also, I spent a lot of my life in Australia, where I was born, so my body is probably accustomed to high amounts of sunshine)I've also had recent heavy stress for the last few years being in a turbulent household situation and extreme stress in late 2020 when I tried to force myself to go back to school while I still had crazy anxiety. That was a scary time, my stress levels were so high that I was losing my longterm memory. Also I've been drinking large amounts of (mostly black) coffee since 2017, which did seem to make my skin worse and may have caused my acne, although quitting it did nothing for me (though I've never successfully quit longterm). I also had a really stressful job working at a cafe in 2017-18 where I would work til 11 at night after school days for less than minimum wage, I did a lot of dishwashing that involved bleach and who knows what else without gloves. It was an under the table job which my boss held over my head and she wouldn't pay me for months and months. I wouldn't really eat when I was working, I'd just run on coffee.

The acne however started weirdly enough after I became 'conscious' of acne and worried about it. It's gotten both progressively worse and better over the years. Overall my skin appearance is way better and clearer than it used to be but now all of the acne is cystic instead of being just little bumps and pimples all over my face.

I drink my coffee with cream and I try to have a source of sugar with it like a dried fig or date but I do have it first thing in the morning because I'm never hungry until I've had it. I normally have the meal after the coffee. This is a bad habit which I'm trying to work on, however in the mornings often I'm too tired to make myself anything until I've had my coffee.

It is almost summer where I live so I'm trying to get high sun exposure for vitamin D since the d3 supplement I used to take gave me heart palpitations. I eat a lot of dairy for calcium & I can notice how much better I feel having dairy.

Also I do realize that I started progest-e at the wrong time of my (pretty irregular) cycle, which was stupid of me. I thought that my symptoms were bad enough to justify it but I think that's also why it didn't feel great since the first time I took it internally was the last day of my period.

Cyproheptadine is something that I'm interested in, I'll definitely look for those studies!

Thanks for the reply :)

Oh wow! You're right not be surprised that this is happening. This is a lot of stress you've been under from the crazy diet changes to your familial issues etc. It's the driving force behind your problems.

Acne, hirsutism and scalp hair loss are the symptoms associated with elevated estrogen/adrenal androgens. Both men and women get it to different extent.

The first step is avoiding stress whenever possible. Black coffee on an empty stomach just triggers a stress reaction because you're jacking up your metabolism with nothing to sustain it. Try to avoid it. Maybe have a glass of orange juice first thing before you drink your coffee. Drinking it with cream/sugar and dried figs is excellent. (I often have a cup of coffee with milk/cream and sugar along with some applesauce first thing in the morning)

@Rick K is right, focusing on vitamin D is crucial because it will alleviate a LOT of the symptoms you're experiencing. Get some sunshine exposure daily until you're slightly pink. Coconut oil on the skin is good to help prevent burning. Try to get your vitamin D in the optimal range.

You can use progest-e all the time if you want for a couple of months to fix your issues, it will affect your cycle, but you clearly have pressing needs for more progesterone to deal with your the large amounts of stress you're experiencing.

When you start feeling better, you can start "timing" progesterone with the 2 weeks on/off schedule. My sister had issues with irregular cycle for years (basically she never had a normal cycle) and she tried progest-e in her mid20s and after a couple months she had her first couple of normal cycles, and now it's the new normal for her.

Bottomline vitamin D (sunshine) and topical progesterone is a simple therapy which is easy to implement and over a couple of months should take care of your issues. Cyproheptadine is helpful too, but it has other side-effects and at 18 I'm betting you can fix things with just sunshine + progest-e topically. Vitamin D (in MCT oil) can also be applied topically and is absorbed so no need for any oral supplements.

Making an effort to eat/drink good quality, nutritious foods is also a big help (obviously).

 

[heliocentrisms]

Hi, I'm an 18 year old girl w crazy bad suspected estrogen dominance resulting in mood issues, crazy heavy painful periods, painful ovulation and acne. I also have hirsutism so I suspect that my androgen levels are super high (I know what Peat says about estrogen dominance eventually causing adrenal androgen release and I think that's what's happening here).

I recently purchased some progest-e and I'm experiencing some problems. Everytime I take a dose I get good symptoms like my vision clearing up and my field of vision widening but it also seems to give me anxiety attacks. I'm not sure if this is from the progest-e or not since whenever I take a dose I do get very nervous and tense up because I've never taken hormones before and I'm nervous about there being bad effects or me being allergic or it converting to estrogen or whatever. I'm also not sure if this is from the coffee that I drink in the morning since recently that's been making me super jittery and nervous for the whole day (before I started taking progest-e). I might try lower doses but then the panic attacks might be from it converting to estrogen and then it would be better to go higher? I don't know. Or maybe I'll just try using it topically for a bit (which seems to give me no problems no matter the dosage).

I've been sleeping better than usual so it doesn't seem to mess that up at all.

I'm not sure if its causing the panic attacks since I had an out of the blue crazy panic attack the day before I started taking it which was actually caused by there being tension in one of my back muscles and massaging the area was the ONLY thing that got rid of the panic (instantly).

So I think maybe I'm going to try taking a dose tomorrow and seeing if I panic and then checking myself for tension and releasing it w massage and stretches and if that gets rid of the panic then it's not the progest-e?

I'm sort of concerned but also the progesterone is sort of my last hope ... I went from glowing clear skin and being considered a pretty girl to acne and eventually facial hair ... along w all of the health problems that come along w these issues (a lot!). I'm also trying to overhaul my diet and lifestyle but I really really just wanted to get rid of the most glaring issues.

I also take magnesium glycinate and a high dose brain & pineal gland (like literally the brain & pineal gland of an animal) supplement for my insomnia (these things have never given me issues ever and work great) along w a few homeopathics for detox and insomnia (passionflower) that have worked great for me (despite me not believing in homeopathic medicine at all, lol). I use magnesium chloride spray for my skin which is the only thing that helps w the acne and muscle tension I get and its given me no problems before.

I've taken high dose vit e before in January (mitolife) where I was having six capsules a day (highest possible dose) and feeling great and losing fat like nothing else. Unfortunately I couldn't afford to get another bottle and it did not get rid of my hirsutism which is the worst thing for me to deal with right now (I'm a very vain person, sorry). I had to ask family members for money just to get the progest-e.

I do have a massive long history of extreme health problems and crazy diets and all sorts of stuff so I'm not surprised that this is happening. And I know that this could be from a thyroid goiter unloading causing temporary hyperthyroid symptoms. So I think I'll have to wait and see.

Right now I do feel pretty panicked, jittery and on edge but it might be from the coffee, and my muscles are really tense (which has been enough to cause full on mental breakdowns and psychotic behaviour from me, for whatever reason muscular tension and trigger point tension just make my brain go absolutely crazy). And I know all about serotonin, I have a lot of experience with serotonin excess due to chronic adversity as well as adrenaline and cortisol excess and I can actually tell when there's excess serotonin rushing through my body vs adrenaline etc.

I'm thinking it might be the soy derived vit e? Maybe next time I should try Corti-Non?

Any feedback would be really welcome :).

Incidentally, ever since starting taking it my mood swings and moods have been crazy. I've been lashing out at family so much and always close to tears. The progest-e really is a last resort option for me to deal w the hirsutism and acne symptoms but I can't afford to sabotage relationships like this and to constantly hurt others and be miserable all of the time. I'm honestly ready at this point to stop and just accept my fate. I don't want to try a higher dose because I don't have a scale and I'm nervous for there to be an even worse reaction. The only reason I didn't stop as soon as the first dose didn't have miraculous effects is because this is truly a last resort option for me and I don't know if I can live w the awful symptoms much longer. But I know taking a break is just going to mean that when I start it again I'll have to start from scratch. There are other potential causes for my irritation so I'll see what happens tonight after I try to release muscle tension and have carrot salad and my rosemary supplement (which supports liver function and could help detox circulating estrogen, the person who gave it to me described it as directly anti estrogen), as well as doing my Buteyko breathing exercises which when done constantly, eliminate symptoms of all health problems (apart from hirsutism and some skin problems). I have a hard time sticking to doing them bc they never erase the problems that I want them to. I have had episodes of lashing out before.

Hi, I'm an 18 year old girl w crazy bad suspected estrogen dominance resulting in mood issues, crazy heavy painful periods, painful ovulation and acne. I also have hirsutism so I suspect that my androgen levels are super high (I know what Peat says about estrogen dominance eventually causing adrenal androgen release and I think that's what's happening here).

I recently purchased some progest-e and I'm experiencing some problems. Everytime I take a dose I get good symptoms like my vision clearing up and my field of vision widening but it also seems to give me anxiety attacks. I'm not sure if this is from the progest-e or not since whenever I take a dose I do get very nervous and tense up because I've never taken hormones before and I'm nervous about there being bad effects or me being allergic or it converting to estrogen or whatever. I'm also not sure if this is from the coffee that I drink in the morning since recently that's been making me super jittery and nervous for the whole day (before I started taking progest-e). I might try lower doses but then the panic attacks might be from it converting to estrogen and then it would be better to go higher? I don't know. Or maybe I'll just try using it topically for a bit (which seems to give me no problems no matter the dosage).

I've been sleeping better than usual so it doesn't seem to mess that up at all.

I'm not sure if its causing the panic attacks since I had an out of the blue crazy panic attack the day before I started taking it which was actually caused by there being tension in one of my back muscles and massaging the area was the ONLY thing that got rid of the panic (instantly).

So I think maybe I'm going to try taking a dose tomorrow and seeing if I panic and then checking myself for tension and releasing it w massage and stretches and if that gets rid of the panic then it's not the progest-e?

I'm sort of concerned but also the progesterone is sort of my last hope ... I went from glowing clear skin and being considered a pretty girl to acne and eventually facial hair ... along w all of the health problems that come along w these issues (a lot!). I'm also trying to overhaul my diet and lifestyle but I really really just wanted to get rid of the most glaring issues.

I also take magnesium glycinate and a high dose brain & pineal gland (like literally the brain & pineal gland of an animal) supplement for my insomnia (these things have never given me issues ever and work great) along w a few homeopathics for detox and insomnia (passionflower) that have worked great for me (despite me not believing in homeopathic medicine at all, lol). I use magnesium chloride spray for my skin which is the only thing that helps w the acne and muscle tension I get and its given me no problems before.

I've taken high dose vit e before in January (mitolife) where I was having six capsules a day (highest possible dose) and feeling great and losing fat like nothing else. Unfortunately I couldn't afford to get another bottle and it did not get rid of my hirsutism which is the worst thing for me to deal with right now (I'm a very vain person, sorry). I had to ask family members for money just to get the progest-e.

I do have a massive long history of extreme health problems and crazy diets and all sorts of stuff so I'm not surprised that this is happening. And I know that this could be from a thyroid goiter unloading causing temporary hyperthyroid symptoms. So I think I'll have to wait and see.

Right now I do feel pretty panicked, jittery and on edge but it might be from the coffee, and my muscles are really tense (which has been enough to cause full on mental breakdowns and psychotic behaviour from me, for whatever reason muscular tension and trigger point tension just make my brain go absolutely crazy). And I know all about serotonin, I have a lot of experience with serotonin excess due to chronic adversity as well as adrenaline and cortisol excess and I can actually tell when there's excess serotonin rushing through my body vs adrenaline etc.

I'm thinking it might be the soy derived vit e? Maybe next time I should try Corti-Non?

Any feedback would be really welcome :).

I reached out to my mom who does energy medicine (generally I'm skeptical of her recommendations and we have a generally messy relationship) but I've found that all of my best health outcomes have been achieved when I choose the products and she tests the dosages. She says that I've been taking way way way too much. Today I feel like I lost it and acted completely awful to everyone, so irritable and almost hysterical. Since I do have a lot of issues which I haven't even mentioned (weird lumps on breasts, weird lupus like rash on chest, occasional extreme ADHD/OCD symptoms, really bad muscular problems and injuries that never heal as well as hypothyroidism symptoms) I think these show a deep imbalance and estrogen/stress issue which maybe needs to be dealt with gradually if I don't want to destroy every single relationship in my life ever by being so irritable and angry and hysterical.

She says I should take a break for 3 days, I do trust her because I think I fumbled things with the progest-e. I just got so fed up w my issues that I impatiently went for it and didn't even speak to her about dosage (which I always do). Don't get me wrong, I read all of the instructions on the site and I've read Ray Peat's books and watched his interviews, but I didn't do what I'd normally do with supplements which is to err on the extreme side of caution at first and also consult my mom. I was so irritated and sick of having literal facial hair that I just jumped in.

I know some people have said take more and I definitely think that's still sound advice generally, but with my frustrating experience I'm going to take my mom's advice and err on the side of caution. I have had positive effects from it like increased brain power, lucidity, vision and improvement of certain skin problems etc. But I'll just have to see what the next step should be. There may be underlying issues like nutrient deficiencies that mean my body can't handle any significant amounts of pro-metabolic substances, ESPECIALLY not pro metabolic substances that can cause temporary hyperthyroidism.

Also, since I think the high estrogen over the years has stimulated my adrenals to produce compensatory androgens, I think that taking an anti androgen substance like progesterone that also has the potential to be estrogenic at first (if your body is really estrogenic or you have PCOS) may have made me feel worse through decreasing the androgens that were probably making me feel a little bit better and also increasing estrogen by releasing the stored estrogen and also maybe being converted to estrogen (if I have PCOS?).

It's a bit of a mystery but one that I'm excited to solve and learn lessons from and learn more about my body, the human body, hormones and health.

I'll keep updating this and thanks for all the replies )

 

[Vinero]

There is actually no debate. Read the thread. She even apologizes. Ray explicitly says that nothing has changed. I have been using since 2015 and NOTHING changed. It still works wonders. @Rinse & rePeat do not get hooked in to that conversation.

I'm glad your progest-E still works fine for you. I don't know why for some people progest-E still works fine, while others have terrible estrogenic effect from it.
I've used lots of progest-E starting in 2013 when the bottle was still white.
I got close to magical effects from it, it was that good.
Ever since Progest-E has got that orange label to it since around end of 2018, it doesn't feel like progesterone anymore.

All I can say to people is this:
If you tried progest-E and it didn't produce positive results, please try another brand.
Don't give up on progesterone just because Progest-E didn't work out well for you. If you get a good progesterone product it is really one of the best supplements ever.
One of the signs that you have real progesterone is that you get a sense of euphoria after taking it, and your facial features improve. It makes your face lean out, less water retention.
When I take this progest-E I notice no change in my face and I just feel mild dizziness and fatigue, but no euphoria.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

I'm glad your progest-E still works fine for you. I don't know why for some people progest-E still works fine, while others have terrible estrogenic effect from it.
I've used lots of progest-E starting in 2013 when the bottle was still white.
I got close to magical effects from it, it was that good.
Ever since Progest-E has got that orange label to it since around end of 2018, it doesn't feel like progesterone anymore.

All I can say to people is this:
If you tried progest-E and it didn't produce positive results, please try another brand.
Don't give up on progesterone just because Progest-E didn't work out well for you. If you get a good progesterone product it is really one of the best supplements ever.
One of the signs that you have real progesterone is that you get a sense of euphoria after taking it, and your facial features improve. It makes your face lean out, less water retention.
When I take this progest-E I notice no change in my face and I just feel mild dizziness and fatigue, but no euphoria.

I agree Vinero it feels like a high. On my post Progest-E & Raw Honey High there is a quote from Ray Peat that says "some people" get that high because they are in a good physiological state. I didn't get that high 4 years ago with the white bottle, but I am now from the orange one and hearing you having the opposite experience is more telling of our physiological state and not the product. I do get a little face perk from it too now. Like I said in my post I think my first bottle I didn't feel anything because I had too much estrogens for the Progest-E to give me a party in my head :)

 

[ursidae]

Have you actually had blood tests done?

 

[Lollipop2]

I'm glad your progest-E still works fine for you. I don't know why for some people progest-E still works fine, while others have terrible estrogenic effect from it.
I've used lots of progest-E starting in 2013 when the bottle was still white.
I got close to magical effects from it, it was that good.
Ever since Progest-E has got that orange label to it since around end of 2018, it doesn't feel like progesterone anymore.

All I can say to people is this:
If you tried progest-E and it didn't produce positive results, please try another brand.
Don't give up on progesterone just because Progest-E didn't work out well for you. If you get a good progesterone product it is really one of the best supplements ever.
One of the signs that you have real progesterone is that you get a sense of euphoria after taking it, and your facial features improve. It makes your face lean out, less water retention.
When I take this progest-E I notice no change in my face and I just feel mild dizziness and fatigue, but no euphoria.

Hey @Vinero - super glad you understand and appreciate progesterone! I am not sure getting a euphoria experience will happen with every use. It doesn’t for me, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t working for me. Progest-e has completely rocked my health and continues to. Also, I think the health of the liver can determine our experience with Progest-e and progesterone in general. I have found over the years of use that I experience different effects depending on where I am with my health and stress. I felt that euphoria when my cortisol and estrogen were super high. As they came down, I felt it more as calming or steadying so to speak. I think keep experimenting. I do!

I do think experimentation is key and if you discover one brand works well for you, then awesomeness.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

I'm glad your progest-E still works fine for you. I don't know why for some people progest-E still works fine, while others have terrible estrogenic effect from it.
I've used lots of progest-E starting in 2013 when the bottle was still white.
I got close to magical effects from it, it was that good.
Ever since Progest-E has got that orange label to it since around end of 2018, it doesn't feel like progesterone anymore.

All I can say to people is this:
If you tried progest-E and it didn't produce positive results, please try another brand.
Don't give up on progesterone just because Progest-E didn't work out well for you. If you get a good progesterone product it is really one of the best supplements ever.
One of the signs that you have real progesterone is that you get a sense of euphoria after taking it, and your facial features improve. It makes your face lean out, less water retention.
When I take this progest-E I notice no change in my face and I just feel mild dizziness and fatigue, but no euphoria.

Hey Vinero what does the ingredients on the back of your bottle of Progest-E say? Mine is not the Ray Peat one and says this on my Progest-E website.

 

[Vinero]

Hey Vinero what does the ingredients on the back of your bottle of Progest-E say? Mine is not the Ray Peat one and says this on my Progest-E website.

On the Progest-E bottle it says:

Ingredients:
Natural d-alpha tocopherol
and mixed tocopherols, organic
triglycerides (from coconut),
natural progesterone

I have ordered 2 different progesterone products besides progest-E, and they both give me polar opposite effects from progest-e.
The effects of the other progesterone products are as follows:
- increased mental clarity and less brain fog
- less water retention in face, makes me look leaner
- makes me feel like socializing
- antidepressant effect, mild euphoria
- improved vision

The effects of Progest-e on the other hand are:
- mild dizziness
- fatigue
- feeling bored, no motivation
- irritable, want to be left alone
- headache
- some anxiety, feeling off

Conclusion:
Progest-E is a scam. It either has no progesterone in it, or it has estrogenic chemicals in it which overpower the progesterone.

 

[Lollipop2]

Progest-E is a scam. It either has no progesterone in it, or it has estrogenic chemicals in it which overpower the progesterone.

No it is not Vinero. I use it every single day of my on cycle. It works wonderfully just as it has always. What you are missing in your assessment is YOU! Our bodies are always in flux. Sometimes we need it, sometimes we don’t and it can have different reactions based on where we are.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

On the Progest-E bottle it says:

Ingredients:
Natural d-alpha tocopherol
and mixed tocopherols, organic
triglycerides (from coconut),
natural progesterone

I have ordered 2 different progesterone products besides progest-E, and they both give me polar opposite effects from progest-e.
The effects of the other progesterone products are as follows:
- increased mental clarity and less brain fog
- less water retention in face, makes me look leaner
- makes me feel like socializing
- antidepressant effect, mild euphoria
- improved vision

The effects of Progest-e on the other hand are:
- mild dizziness
- fatigue
- feeling bored, no motivation
- irritable, want to be left alone
- headache
- some anxiety, feeling off

Conclusion:
Progest-E is a scam. It either has no progesterone in it, or it has estrogenic chemicals in it which overpower the progesterone.

Hmmmm there is a difference between them, I am noticing, on the labels. Thanks for your response.

 

[Lollipop2]

Hmmmm there is a difference between them, I am noticing, on the labels. Thanks for your response.

@Rinse & rePeat - this has come up before and Ray was directly emailed - Kenogen is still loosely connected to Ray. He said that NO it has not changed and that the label changed but nothing else. This is why so told you not to get drawn in to the conversation as I have seen it now several times on the forum. Also Ray was asked directly thus the issue should have been put to rest. I am mainly trying to point this out for any new people who happen to read the forum.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

I hear you, but after asking Rick K about Progest-E there became some confusion between the brands. No worries Lollipop2 it is healthy to be able to ask questions :)

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

@Rinse & rePeat - this has come up before and Ray was directly emailed - Kenogen is still loosely connected to Ray. He said that NO it has not changed and that the label changed but nothing else. This is why so told you not to get drawn in to the conversation as I have seen it now several times on the forum. Also Ray was asked directly thus the issue should have been put to rest. I am mainly trying to point this out for any new people who happen to read the forum.

I am not speaking about Ray Peat's Progest-E, but a different brand.