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Orange Juice Has Similar Effects As ANTI-thyroid Drug In Rodents: Increase In TSH, Decrease In T3/T4

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2. Why did they administer the OJ to the rats using a syringe and cannula? It's juice, you could just feed it to them.

To ensure all of them get equal dose because ad libitum dose can vary animal to animal

. What the hell is this supposed to mean - the median lethal dose of orange juice? The median lethal dose of OJ is 5g/kg? Do they mean the concentrate? If so, why do they mention that, if they gave fresh OJ, or rehydrated concetrate to the rats? Honestly, how can you take this seriously?

What exactly wrong with lethal dose in this study?
 

Kvothe

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To ensure all of them get equal dose because ad libitum dose can vary animal to animal

You don't need to force feed animals with a syringe to control the amount of food or drugs ingested. You can just put the few drops of orange juice in front of them or mix it into their drinking water or food palets.

What exactly wrong with lethal dose in this study?

You are just having fun with me, right? If the median lethal dose of OJ is 5g/kg, how much does a 70kg adult human need to drink of it to have a 50% probability of dying from it? *horrified, he knocks his glas of orange juice from the thable*
 
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Well this is what we probably having here is copy-paste studies made by ADHD affected researcher to get grants.

There are 3 different studies published in different journals.

Citrus Sinensis Separately Increases Serum Plasma
Proteins while its Combination Treatment with
Carbimazole Reduces-the Thyroid Hormones Connection

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw29F-0De8IvndF2QishtQuY&cshid=1577365479172

Comparative effect of Citrus sinensis and carbimazole on serum T4, T3 and TSH levels
Comparative effect of Citrus sinensis and carbimazole on serum T4, T3 and TSH levels

Comparative Effect of Carbimazole, Citrus
sinensis, Glycine Max and Levothyroxine on
Blood Glucose Levels and Body Weight
Changes

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw0KFY6cpBQbzMHk9Zv92M00&cshid=1577365994394

You all probably remember Nigerian letters. Looks like we have new phenomena - Nigerian studies
 
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You are just having fun with me, right? If the median lethal dose of OJ is 5g/kg, how much does a 70kg adult human need to drink of it to have a 50% probability of dying from it? *horrified, he knocks his glas of orange juice from the thable*

Haha. I believe this is about the extract not juice. That's why I said ADHD-affected researcher, there is word "extract" missing from some parts of these studies.
 

schultz

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I think pesticides are something that should be considered if we are critiquing the paper (might be a stretch, but thought I'd mention it). The fresh oranges were obtained at market in Nigeria. I don't know what kind of pesticides/what the practices are like there.

I agree with @Kvothe in that the study does seem a little odd. It is not clear to me what the rats were actually receiving.

I didn't look at the other papers linked yet.
 

Amazoniac

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Let's just say that an argument that is based on one paper with the quality of this one would be quite weak. Doesn't this study seem a little odd to you?

1. They used 1500mg/kg of OJ. For a ~ 200g adult albino wistar rat that is 300mg of OJ. For an adult human (70kg) this would be 105g of OJ. If you consider the standard factor for animal ---> human dose that is used as a standard to convert animal doses into human doses, you would get a human dose of 17.5g. If these quantities of OJ are enough to cause significant thyroid suppression, OJ should be considered a more dangerous health hazard than smoking or air pollution.

2. Why did they administer the OJ to the rats using a syringe and cannula? It's juice, you could just feed it to them.

3. What the hell is this supposed to mean - the median lethal dose of orange juice? The median lethal dose of OJ is 5g/kg? Do they mean the concentrate? If so, why do they mention that, if they gave fresh OJ, or rehydrated concetrate to the rats? Honestly, how can you take this seriously?

"The median lethal dose was estimated by the method of Lorke. 20 There was no mortality at the highest dose of 5000 mg/kg, therefore 30% of 5000 mg/kg was used, that is, 1500 mg/kg body weight."

I am not saying that the phytochemicals in OJ and other fruits might not theoretically be a problem. I am just saying that this study looks more like a very clumsy highschool science project than scientific evidence.
I guess that they meant 90 mg of solids obtained from evaporation of every ml of orange juice, therefore 1500 mg/kg is something like 17 ml filter'd OJ/kg bw, or 1.7 ml filter'd OJ/100 g bw; 0.3 g of juice would also be even lower. And they could have started at 100 g bw and went up to 300 g.
You are just having fun with me, right? If the median lethal dose of OJ is 5g/kg, how much does a 70kg adult human need to drink of it to have a 50% probability of dying from it? *horrified, he knocks his glas of orange juice from the thable*
That's not it. They mentioned no mortality up to the dose tested of 5000 mg/kg, but didn't explain why 30%.

Note that I haven't positioned myself.

--
- Dr. William Frederich Koch USA/Brazil, Drs. Erich & Dieter Reinstorff, Germany - Discussion Thread "citrus" (pboyls)
 
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lampofred

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3. What the hell is this supposed to mean - the median lethal dose of orange juice? The median lethal dose of OJ is 5g/kg? Do they mean the concentrate? If so, why do they mention that, if they gave fresh OJ, or rehydrated concetrate to the rats? Honestly, how can you take this seriously?

"The median lethal dose was estimated by the method of Lorke. 20 There was no mortality at the highest dose of 5000 mg/kg, therefore 30% of 5000 mg/kg was used, that is, 1500 mg/kg body weight."

lmaooo. i almost spit out my OJ (from laughing, not because i was scared it was going to kill me)
 

Kvothe

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I guess that they meant 90 mg of solids obtained from evaporation of every ml of orange juice, therefore 1500 mg/kg is something like 17 ml filter'd OJ/kg bw, or 1.7 ml filter'd OJ/100 g bw; 0.3 g of juice would also be even lower. And they could have started at 100 g bw and went up to 300 g

The 90mg/ml is another things that's bothering me. The sucrose alone should amount to 95-100mg, if the orange's weren't extremely unripe. If you add the protein, minerals, and other dissolved things the number should be significantly greater. They write that they stored the filtered orange juice in the fridge, and that:

"Administration of the aqueous extract was done orally by means of calibrated syringe with attached rubber cannula."
So, they either gave them the juice from the fridge or rehydrated concentrate, which comes down to the same thing. It's unbelievable that this amount of OJ, the equivalent of 3-4 ounces, would have these effects.

That's not it. They mentioned no mortality up to the dose tested of 5000 mg/kg, but didn't explain why 30%.

Note that I haven't positioned myself.

If they found no lethal dose (what a surprise), why do they include the LD50, at all, and just define it as a random percentage of the highest amount they testedt? It seems like their teacher told them that the concept has to appear somewhere in the paper to get a passing grade. The paper is full of these little, ridiculous stupidities. For example, to support their claim that "Studies have shown that Citrus sinensis extract significantly decreases the level of serum thyroxine (T4) in rats." they cite Nicolosi et al. (reference number 10). I checked the paper because the titel seemed odd - it's an article about the genetic origin of orange trees. There is nothing in there about effects on thyroid, T4, or anything about physiological effects of oranges. It looks like the deadline for the term paper was approaching, and they just cited a random paper to fill the gap, hoping their professor won't bother to check, anyways.
Check for yourself, if you want: Sci-Hub | Citrus phylogeny and genetic origin of important species as investigated by molecular markers. TAG Theoretical and Applied Genetics, 100(8), 1155–1166 | 10.1007/s001220051419
 
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Amazoniac

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The 90mg/ml is another things that's bothering me. The sucrose alone should amount to 95-100mg, if the orange's weren't extremely unripe. If you add the protein, minerals, and other dissolved things the number should be significantly greater. They write that they stored the filtered orange juice in the fridge, and that:

"Administration of the aqueous extract was done orally by means of calibrated syringe with attached rubber cannula."
So, they either gave them the juice from the fridge or rehydrated concentrate, which comes down to the same thing. It's unbelievable that this amount of OJ, the equivalent of 3-4 ounces, would have these effects.
I guess that there can be imprecision in weighing and retention during filtering, it wasn't a sieve, it was a paper filter.
If they found no lethal dose (what a surprise), why do they include the LD50, at all, and just define it as a random percentage of the highest amount they testedt? It seems like their teacher told them that the concept has to appear somewhere in the paper to get a passing grade. The paper is full of these little, ridiculous stupidities. For example, to support their claim that "Studies have shown that Citrus sinensis extract significantly decreases the level of serum thyroxine (T4) in rats." they cite Nicolosi et al. (reference number 10). I checked the paper because the titel seemed odd - it's an article about the genetic origin of orange trees. There is nothing in there about effects on thyroid, T4, or anything about physiological effects of oranges. It looks like the deadline for the term paper was approaching, and they just cited a random paper to fill the gap, hoping their professor won't bother to check, anyways.
Check for yourself, if you want: Sci-Hub | Citrus phylogeny and genetic origin of important species as investigated by molecular markers. TAG Theoretical and Applied Genetics, 100(8), 1155–1166 | 10.1007/s001220051419
It's indeed possible that they lacked the experience while attempting to follow a template, for example by copying what the authors of the other publication did and applying to what they was doing. But it's not difficult to manipulate information in favor of a point and it wouldn't take much time for them to find something to reinforce their argument (just like the op here did) without being indecent, which is why I tried to make sense of it in spite of finding it shady. However, maybe they were being careless for believing that there were no prospects for it to find readers throughout the world. It casts a shadow on the whole thing, but the email of the author was there for you to clarify what's up because on top of it all there can be language barrier. The problem is that you were mocking something that you weren't even understanding for lack of commitment.
 
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Kvothe

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I guess that there can be imprecision in weighing and retention during filtering, it wasn't a sieve, it was a paper filter.

It's indeed possible that they lacked the experience while attempting to follow a template, for example by copying what the authors of the other publication did and applying to what they was doing. But it's not difficult to manipulate information in favor of a point and it wouldn't take much time for them to find something to reinforce their argument (just like the op here did) without being indecent, which is why I tried to make sense of it in spite of finding it shady. However, maybe they were being careless for believing that there were no prospects for it to find readers throughout the world. It casts a shadow on the whole thing, but the email of the author was there for you to clarify what's up because on top of it all there can be language barrier. The problem is that you were mocking something that you weren't even understanding for lack of commitment.

I have no idea why you feel the need to defend obvious fraud or gross negligence. Making a scientific claim with a faulty reference like that will cause you to fail a simple college term paper, and might even result in more serious charges, depending on the rules of the university. Why should I tolerate or try to understand such behavior on the highest level of academic research when 1st semesters will get punished for it? Besides, the argument that oranges have been shown to surpress thyroid function is the central claim of this paper. So, they didn't just fake a reference for a minor claim, but for the central thesis of their paper. That's not careless, it's scientific misconduct and dishonesty. If you think that I lack committment and understanding, here is Ray's response to the paper. I asked him for his opinion and whether I might have missed something about the mistakes I perceived:

"Yes, the Fresh Orange Juice was, after being stored in the refrigerator, given as juice: " Administration of the aqueous extract was done orally by means of calibrated syringe with attached rubber cannula." Why can't they be that incompetent? The whole article does indeed have the appearance of something done by junior high school students as a school assignment, with whole paragraphs of complete craziness. Since they were determining the dose to use by a method they got from an article on a simplified way to determine the acute toxicity, LD50, of unknown chemicals using only a few rats, their language about the potency of a high dose is just a minor craziness in a big compilation of crazinesses. For people who enjoy comically stupid "science," I recommend Victor A. McKusick's Mendelian Inheritance in Man."​
 
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Amazoniac

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I have no idea why you feel the need to defend obvious fraud or gross negligence. Making a scientific claim with a faulty reference like that will cause you to fail a simple college term paper, and might even result in more serious charges, depending on the rules of the university. Why should I tolerate or try to understand such behavior on the highest level of academic research when 1st semesters will get punished for it? If you think that I lack committment and understanding, here is Ray's response to the paper. I asked him for his opinion and whether I might have missed something about the mistakes I perceived:

"Yes, the Fresh Orange Juice was, after being stored in the refrigerator, given as juice: " Administration of the aqueous extract was done orally by means of calibrated syringe with attached rubber cannula." Why can't they be that incompetent? The whole article does indeed have the appearance of something done by junior high school students as a school assignment, with whole paragraphs of complete craziness. Since they were determining the dose to use by a method they got from an article on a simplified way to determine the acute toxicity, LD50, of unknown chemicals using only a few rats, their language about the potency of a high dose is just a minor craziness in a big compilation of crazinesses. For people who enjoy comically stupid "science," I recommend Victor A. McKusick's Mendelian Inheritance in Man."​
Those errors were obvious, I feel the need because some of your points were distorting it further and it's difficult to believe that they were being completely careless in the publication.
 
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Grapelander

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A lot of studies to go thru on the links - but they are basically saying that flavonoids and flavones can 'mildly' inhibit thyroid function. Circle the wagons.

From Natural Producrs as Aromatase Inhibitors: "…naringenin has been tested most often and has shown strong to moderate aromatase inhibition activity in microsomal testing. This substance…inhibited aromatase at low concentrations in a MCF-7 dual assay for aromatase inhibition and estrogenicity. Naringenin was also estrogenic at high concentrations."

Even Ray notes they are complex substances; "The effects of the phytoestrogens are very complex, because they modify the sensitivity of cells to natural estrogens, and also modify the metabolism of estrogens, with the result that the effects on a given tissue can be either pro-estrogenic and anti-estrogenic. For example, the flavonoids, naringenin, quercetin and kaempherol (kaempherol is an antioxidant, a phytoestrogen, and a mutagen) modify the metabolism of estradiol, causing increased bioavailability of both estrone and estradiol. (W. Schubert, et al., "Inhibition of 17-beta-estradiol metabolism by grapefruit juice in ovariectomized women," Maturitas (Ireland) 30(2-3), 155-163, 1994.)"

If you look at the links in the studies; similar results were seen by researchers in other countries, and the references go back to at least 1996.
I looked at the researcher in one of the studies - his publications do not seem slanted into a particular agenda.

- or maybe -

The Nigerian Pineapple Syndicate has struck back in their turf war with the Florida Orange Growers. Using money funneled from the Russians; they have engaged in a long term campaign to get OJ out of the hands of American citizens. "We will published scientific research with the end goal of eliminating every thyroid in America": said the NPS President at a recent meeting.; "and they will come to us begging for pineapple cure".
 

Kvothe

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A lot of studies to go thru on the links - but they are basically saying that flavonoids and flavones can 'mildly' inhibit thyroid function. Circle the wagons.

From Natural Producrs as Aromatase Inhibitors: "…naringenin has been tested most often and has shown strong to moderate aromatase inhibition activity in microsomal testing. This substance…inhibited aromatase at low concentrations in a MCF-7 dual assay for aromatase inhibition and estrogenicity. Naringenin was also estrogenic at high concentrations."

Even Ray notes they are complex substances; "The effects of the phytoestrogens are very complex, because they modify the sensitivity of cells to natural estrogens, and also modify the metabolism of estrogens, with the result that the effects on a given tissue can be either pro-estrogenic and anti-estrogenic. For example, the flavonoids, naringenin, quercetin and kaempherol (kaempherol is an antioxidant, a phytoestrogen, and a mutagen) modify the metabolism of estradiol, causing increased bioavailability of both estrone and estradiol. (W. Schubert, et al., "Inhibition of 17-beta-estradiol metabolism by grapefruit juice in ovariectomized women," Maturitas (Ireland) 30(2-3), 155-163, 1994.)"

If you look at the links in the studies; similar results were seen by researchers in other countries, and the references go back to at least 1996.
I looked at the researcher in one of the studies - his publications do not seem slanted into a particular agenda.

- or maybe -

The Nigerian Pineapple Syndicate has struck back in their turf war with the Florida Orange Growers. Using money funneled from the Russians; they have engaged in a long term campaign to get OJ out of the hands of American citizens. "We will published scientific research with the end goal of eliminating every thyroid in America": said the NPS President at a recent meeting.; "and they will come to us begging for pineapple cure".

What exactely is your point, introducing the possible estrogenic properties of flavonoids into the discussion? Ray has mentioned naringenin as a useful, anti-inflammatory substance several times, and this statement in one of his older articles doesn't present his current position on naringenin. Besides, how would any of this justify recommending pineapples over oranges? Pineapples contain just as much flavonoids, mainly quercetin. So, if you believe that flavonoids have potential adverse effects, that's no reason to elevate pineapples over oranges, especially since the strong serotonergic potential of pineapples should be considered. I doubt there is a single fruit on this planet that does not contain one substance or another that inhibits thyroid function in in vitro experiments.
 

RWilly

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Keep in mind too that humans need to get vitamin C from diet, and rodents (other than guinea pigs), create their own vitamin C.
 

Grapelander

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My main point is that flavones & flavanoids have positive or negative (dose dependent) effects on biological processes. Orange juice is full of these substances. I never really thought they could be negative until I heard Peat mention they were estrogenic. I personally think they have there place in correct dose - but that correct dose may differ substantially from person to person.

YES - estrogen effects thyroid:
Hypothyroidism and menopause share some symptoms. Research also indicates levels of estrogen may impact levels of thyroid hormones.

…epidemiological data suggest a role of estrogen in the pathogenesis of thyroid diseases. Estrogen has a well-known indirect effect on thyroid economy, increasing the thyroxine binding globulin, and the need for thyroid hormone in hypothyroid women.

...on the estrogen therapy, about 40% of women taking the thyroid hormone had decreases in their blood levels of thyroxine, levels low enough to trigger hypothyroid symptoms, such as low energy and feeling tired, sluggish, and cold, or to put them at risk for regrowth of thyroid cancer.

My auxiliary point is that when presented information that is contrary to what we want to hear; most respondents are in attack mode. Equating Nigerian email scam to Nigerian scientific study = false logic (strawman); especially when you can easily find concurrent info from other researchers.
I really just want the truth; AND being willing to examine information that is not in line with what we believe is the cure for cognitive dissonance.
 

Kvothe

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My auxiliary point is that when presented information that is contrary to what we want to hear; most respondents are in attack mode. Equating Nigerian email scam to Nigerian scientific study = false logic (strawman); especially when you can easily find concurrent info from other researchers.
I really just want the truth; AND being willing to examine information that is not in line with what we believe is the cure for cognitive dissonance.

I agree with that. Although it might appear that I am attacking this study because it conflicts with what I am currently believing, I can assure you that this is not the case. I am not saying this study is garbage because I don't like the results, but because it is garbage. The authors are obviously lying or so incompetent that they should never have been allowed to conduct a scientific experiment. They are not even capable of explaining what they did, they have a crazy study design (adminstering OJ with a syringe), they provide false references for their claims, and have whole paragraphs in their paper that are completely irrelevant/incomprehensible. Why should anyone trust their results? I think that if 3 ounces of orange juice make you hypotyhroid, someone would have noticed that by now.
 

pepsi

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I wonder what Peat thinks of this study. Maybe someone who‘s in contact with him can ask?

I noticed that storebought orange juice from a carton makes me immediately cold. But fresh squeezed oranges never did that, even imported and sour ones.

Is it maybe because OJ in a carton is cold/refrigerated and fresh squeezed oranges are room temperature.
 

tankasnowgod

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My auxiliary point is that when presented information that is contrary to what we want to hear; most respondents are in attack mode. Equating Nigerian email scam to Nigerian scientific study = false logic (strawman); especially when you can easily find concurrent info from other researchers.
I really just want the truth; AND being willing to examine information that is not in line with what we believe is the cure for cognitive dissonance.

I don't think the attacks on this study are because people don't "want to hear" the results, but more that the results run directly counter to our personal experience. One poorly conducted study in rats certainly isn't enough to undermine decades of personal experience with consuming orange juice.
 

Peatogenic

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I've had the same experience with all store bought orange juice, and fresh squeezed orange juice made from unripe oranges. I'm guessing my response at least partially has to do with unripeness. Sweet fresh squeezed oj makes me warm and feel great overall.

Maybe you're estrogen deficient?


(jk)
 

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