Need Help With Lowering Estrogen Even More

[narouz]

A strong, healthy gut may be able to handle a lot more fibre than a weakened one, and some people have learned that they do better with less soluble and digestible fibre, and there's no reason to think they would all benefit from a high fibre whole food diet - as testified by several people here.

I'm not pushing a general approach,
Just raising some questions, wondering about some Peat mainstays.

The weird thing for me, in terms of the point of view you note, tara,
is that my gut was not strong--was having problems.
But the fiber from the sprouted grain bread might've helped.

I was effectively hypothyroid until just here recently.
In hypo state, the gut/enzymes just don't work right.
Mainly, sluggish, I guess.
My theory is the fiber in that bread irritated my intestines some
and increased peristalsis.
Agreed, not ideal.
But...maybe not a bad trade-off in that situation...

(Well...that's one of my theories... :) )

 

[tara]

@narouz,
That's great, if it's helping.
I don't see anyway to know what an individual's optimal is without individual trial and error.
Yeah - maybe a trade off - there are worse things than serotonin, and constipation may be one of them. :)

 

[narouz]

@narouz,
That's great, if it's helping.
I don't see anyway to know what an individual's optimal is without individual trial and error.
Yeah - maybe a trade off - there are worse things than serotonin, and constipation may be one of them. :)

Well...another theory:
the starches in that bread might've been just the thing for
some of my undernourished, underpopulated good guy bacteria;
they ate it,
multiplied,
and laid waste to several divisions of Candida....

 

[tara]

@narouz,
That's great, if it's helping.
I don't see anyway to know what an individual's optimal is without individual trial and error.
Yeah - maybe a trade off - there are worse things than serotonin, and constipation may be one of them. :)

Well...another theory:
the starches in that bread might've been just the thing for
some of my undernourished, underpopulated good guy bacteria;
they ate it,
multiplied,
and laid waste to several divisions of Candida....

Could be. :)

 

[tara]

Do the starches in grains start to turn back into sugars when they sprout, too?

 

[narouz]

Do the starches in grains start to turn back into sugars when they sprout, too?

Peat said so in an interview.
'course you still got a heck of a lot of fiber.
And gluten.

Not to mention the sesame seeds on the crust.
Which taste so great because they are evil PUFA.

 

[tara]

I think you get less gluten when it's sprouted, too, right?
Maybe sesame seeds taste great because they are rich in calcium ad various other things? Unless you are eating a lot of it, guess it's only a gram or two of extra PUFA? :)

 

[narouz]

Yeah, I think it does diminish the gluten.
I've always loved sesame seeds.
Especially sesame tahini on toast.
That was good.
Add salt of course.

And I used to make a sesame dressing that was great.

I'm tellin' ya, pufa is sometimes delicious.

Back in our hippie days we regularly made this
mashed chickpea + tahini + lemon juice + nutritional yeast + salt
spread.
oh, and diced celery and a little onion and garlic.

 

[EnoreeG]

@EnoreeG
I do agree that there can be benefits from lots of relatively beneficial gut bacteria.

I have some more points about what you said.
One is that even if diagnosed Crohn's, inflammatory bowel disease , ulcerative colitis etc are relatively rare, there are probably a larger number who have undiagnosed or subclinical versions of these that cause them trouble, or have a susceptibility to develop them if they push things with too much fibre.

Second, even if they are relatively rare in the general population, I'm guessing they are going to be a higher proportion reading a site like this, because people with health trouble are more likely to hunt out information about improving health. We know there are a number of members here with quite severe digestive trouble.

Third, you say that the serotonin triggering effects of stretching and friction are only a problem for people with those diseases, but I don't know what you base that on. My understanding of Peat is that he says serotonin is released in response to stretching and friction in the bowel for everyone, not just people with damaged guts. And some of us do seem to have trouble with conditions in which excess serotonin may be a factor, without obvious severe gut damage.

Fourth, absorbed endotoxin is a burden on everybody. The quantity of endotoxin in the gut is related to the quantity of gram-negative bacteria, and I guess the speed of transit. Reducing the quantity of bacteria seems likely to reduce the quantity of endoxoin in the gut, and therefore likely the quantity absorbed into the system to cause trouble. From this PoV, all gram-neg bacteria could be seen as at least somewhat pathogenic.

I don't think these reasons mean that everyone should always do everything they can to minimise gut bacteria. But I do think it means that there are pros and cons that can have effect, and that the optimal balance for more people than just the ones with diagnosed IBD, Crohns, UC etc may sometimes be to reduce the quantity of bacteria, even if it means a reduction in the populations available to defend against more severe pathogens.

Personally, I don't know what the best approach for myself is at this stage - ie whether I'd be better off with more or less fibre than I currently eat, and with more or fewer bacteria. As far as I know, I may have a somewhat leaky and inflamed gut, but if so, it's not so severe as to be obvious or generally uncomfortable. I had a lot more discomfort back when I ate a lot of fibre and starch, but I suspect it was mostly gas. My key condition is one that is known to involve serotonin imbalance amongst other things. Peat says likely excess serotonin, estrogen, histamine. So enough fibre to help carry away the excreted estrogen would be good. Reducing endotoxin burden should be helpful for me too - so the relatively indigestible carrot should help with both estrogen and endotoxin reduction. Stressing my gut out with physically large amounts of rough fibre, which I believe I have done in the past, may also have counter-productive effects for me.

There seems to be a trade off between higher serotonin, higher gut motility, and lower endotoxin, or lower serotonin but more sluggish peristalsis and so likely higher endotoxin (and potentially higher estrogen). The Peaty approach seems to involve getting metabolism up so the gut has the energy to function well, eating indigestible fibre like carrot and bamboo shoots (and maybe occasionally charcoal) to carry away endotoxin and estrogen, and if necessary to use cascara sagrada to reduce inflammation and aid peristalsis (and reduce the need for excess serotonin to keep things moving). These tactics might reduce the numbers of bacteria, but they don't wipe them out. It seems like a reasonable plan, and some people here report success with it.
I think I feel better when I eat regular carrot salads.

Responding to your final statements, it's great that you may have a plan that works for you. I'm sure you'll refine your diet even more as you go along and keep reading, as I always do. Almost every month I learn about something new that I might try to be even more healthy.

I agree that people who may have subclinical Inflammatory Bowel Diseases (IBD) might profit from reducing fiber. They might also profit from increasing certain kinds of fiber.

I agree that a lot of people are on this forum precisely because they have something that causes digestion problems and it might be subclinical IBD.

Throwing advice around by anyone suggesting anything can be an actual disadvantage to anyone here who happens to follow suggestions or advice blindly. But the suggestions are what we are here to do, and I appreciate all suggestions that are given in good faith. I can only suggest that like others here have said, each of us has to weigh the advice and apply it according to their own case after doing their own investigation. Therefore, I'm also saying that nobody here should apply advice carelessly, even if it is Peat's advice. As I've said here several times already, there would be no Peat forum if his advice were clear. So we have his vagueness to thank for what we have here. It's a good thing, right? For me, Peats statements are no more unassailable than any others here.

So with that said, I'll point out that you are making an assumption that I have to highlight, that might be misleading you. That is that "fiber" is responsible for "stretching and friction". (Your third point). I don't disagree with anything you say about serotonin, only I wonder how you blame this on fiber? As I understand it, soluble fiber turns into a gel, and insoluble fiber turns into something with a little more substance, but both tend to maintain moisture and be quite pliable. On the other extreme, if you imagine a meal without fiber, the hallmark characteristics of that type of intestinal load are: 1) almost total removal of moisture; 2) a very hard, slow moving bolus which takes sometimes days to move through the large intestine; and 3) extreme resistance to flexibility. This sounds more like the description of what might cause the "stretching and friction" you speak of. How is this not considered by people talking about bowel function? How does fiber get blamed for this?

My personal experience is exactly that. In years in the past when I ate no fiber, and even now if I eat minimal vegetables, but just a bit more meat or cheese, everything becomes slower, harder, more difficult to move. This is what I imagine as definitely irritating. But I don't think it's all my imagination. Reading on the appearance of healthy bowel movements confirms my feelings.

On the endotoxin thing, I still think, as I presented in my last post. If Endotoxins mostly come from gram-negative bacteria but also from transit time, the most remarkable solution is to insure ample commensal bacteria, (which are mostly gram-positive, BTW, but no hard-fast rule) and they flat-out always keep the endotoxin forming bacteria in check. The sufficient fiber keeps the bowel moving properly so the time consideration is also solved. The converse is to eat less fiber, which absolutely reduces the fiber and bacteria, and instead eat a greater percentage of dairy and meat. It's up to anyone who wishes to try this to go ahead and try it. I did, by chance dozens of years ago and it was a horrible experience with constipation and ill health. The fact that people suffering from IBD are forced to do this to try to regain health is tragic, but possibly necessary, but I heartily feel for them.

But as you say, reducing fiber and thus bacterial load may be key to some people regain health because they are just eating way too much fiber. I can't imagine anyone on this forum doing that, but there are people out there eating too much fiber, just like there are those drinking too much water, etc.

When you talk about your personal approach, as I said before, anyone can reduce fiber and in one day reduce their bacterial load. No big thing. My one advice to people wanting to substantially decrease fiber though would be, if you are dropping even that one carrot salad, and that one or two fruits, watch out what else you eat! If it were me I wouldn't be eating any starch with my sweets (that are left after removing fruit). The starches slow things just a bit in the small intestine. There will still be hungry, surviving bacteria in the intestine, looking for food. With no fiber to push them down, down, down, as you are trying to absorb the sugars, those guys may get into that cookie jar and start making a lot of gas, fighting your body for the sugars. They aren't even the bacteria that are supposed to feed on glucose, but all bacteria can feast on a range of food types and they may make your life uncomfortable. Keep it up for a day or two and you have Small Intestinal Bacterial Overgrowth (SIBO). Just another condition you now have to get over. You see, I think Peat has a reason he allows some fiber in the diet. He's trying to limit it because he doesn't have the same point of view on microbes that I do, and he limits it a little more. But he has fiber there.

When you said "Stressing my gut out with physically large amounts of rough fibre, which I believe I have done in the past, may also have counter-productive effects for me." I'd say you might be right. The only fiber though that I can consider as maybe being "rough" would be grain fiber - bran, husks, etc. Most fiber has enough soluble component though to provide a gel that is going to protect the mucosa. If you ever increase fiber, I'd suggest do it gradually and don't use grains or nuts or any supplement sold as "fiber". Eat food.

On your suspicion of "leaky gut", my understanding is that it is usually something that people have no "gut feedback" on. The gut leaks toxic substances and the first you know is that you have either chronic and systemic inflammation or you have auto-immune symptoms. Foreign, undigestible proteins and toxins (including endotoxins) have entered your system by getting through, between the gut cell walls. Conditions that show up are things like rheumatoid arthritis and psoriasis. The solution is to heal the gut. Addressing the conditions themselves won't fix the problem. But the conditions are usually specific enough that they are a 100% sure diagnosis of leaky gut.

 

[EnoreeG]

@narouz,
That's great, if it's helping.
I don't see anyway to know what an individual's optimal is without individual trial and error.
Yeah - maybe a trade off - there are worse things than serotonin, and constipation may be one of them. :)

Well...another theory:
the starches in that bread might've been just the thing for
some of my undernourished, underpopulated good guy bacteria;
they ate it,
multiplied,
and laid waste to several divisions of Candida....

I think both your theories may be right, narouz. Except for the "irritate" part. Maybe peristalsis is always there, but the fiber just made it simpler for the peristalsis to move the bowel, as it provided substance? Yes, the fiber is for sure going raise the microbe population a bit.

 

[EnoreeG]

I think you get less gluten when it's sprouted, too, right?
Maybe sesame seeds taste great because they are rich in calcium ad various other things? Unless you are eating a lot of it, guess it's only a gram or two of extra PUFA? :)

I think this is possible, but don't have a study. But I read recently that running a batch of bread (example was 100% whole wheat, organic, etc.) through a sourdough ferment that lasted about 24 hours before baking (because sourdough takes that long to rise a couple of times) reduced the gluten a lot in comparison to the normal baking procedure using instant yeast. So why not sprouting also? I have to read up on this.

 

[Peata]

My own experience: I've had the IBS dx most of my life. High OR low fiber, I've had chronic diarrhea in both times. No SIBO (tested). Antibiotics make the diarrhea worse/come back. Pepto Bismol clears up the diarrhea.

 

[narouz]

I like hearing your alternative (to Peat) microbiome views, Enoree.
Do you still have your appendix?

 

[narouz]

My own experience: I've had the IBS dx most of my life. High OR low fiber, I've had chronic diarrhea in both times. No SIBO (tested). Antibiotics make the diarrhea worse/come back. Pepto Bismol clears up the diarrhea.

Peata-
How long does the Pepto Bismol fix hold?

 

[narouz]

I think you get less gluten when it's sprouted, too, right?
Maybe sesame seeds taste great because they are rich in calcium ad various other things? Unless you are eating a lot of it, guess it's only a gram or two of extra PUFA? :)

I forgot:
apparently, with this Ezekiel brand sprouted grain bread,
they add additional gluten.
I bet they have trouble making a "normal" bread
with just the sprouted grain,
which--as you note--does, I think, strongly reduce the gluten.
So...bummer.

I'd like to learn how to make a real, no-gluten-fortified, sprouted grain bread.
Mittir has talked on other threads about ancient grains and sour dough and soaking.
He eats a little bread--wheat--and thinks it's okay if correctly done.
I'll have to pick his brain....

 

[tara]

I'd like to learn how to make a real, no-gluten-fortified, sprouted grain bread.

First harvest your grain, ...
No, first plant your grain, ...
Well, ok, first buy your whole grain, soak it in clean water, drain and rinse, ...

 

[narouz]

I'd like to learn how to make a real, no-gluten-fortified, sprouted grain bread.

First harvest your grain, ...
No, first plant your grain, ...
Well, ok, first buy your whole grain, soak it in clean water, drain and rinse, ...

I might take a short cut:

http://www.motherearthnews.com/real-food/essene-bread-sprouted-grain.aspx

http://nourishedkitchen.com/how-to-make-sprouted-grain-flour/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycb3DiEvbHw

 

[tara]

I'd like to learn how to make a real, no-gluten-fortified, sprouted grain bread.

First harvest your grain, ...
No, first plant your grain, ...
Well, ok, first buy your whole grain, soak it in clean water, drain and rinse, ...

I might take a short cut:

http://www.motherearthnews.com/real-food/essene-bread-sprouted-grain.aspx

http://nourishedkitchen.com/how-to-make-sprouted-grain-flour/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycb3DiEvbHw

Tempting.
I don't have a grinder, and I'm wondering if I can blend the sprouted grains with water. That's what I was doing with my soaked buckwheat to make pancakes when I started Peating - got out of the habit after a while. (But they were pretty good, with fruit salad or jam and cream.)

 

[EnoreeG]

I like hearing your alternative (to Peat) microbiome views, Enoree.
Do you still have your appendix?

Yes, still have my appendix!

On the sprouted grain thing, remember you can definitely (I've now found out) reduce the gluten by making slooooow sourdough. Make your own starter too! I did this all years ago. Loved the bread. I think it's important though to get the flour fresh-ground, not in some store bought bag of flour. I ground my own in a stone mill. This is because, unlike Peat, I think it's the oxidation of PUFA that is the problem, not the fresh PUFA. Imagine PUFA containing wheat germ, ground up into tiny grains, sitting in a flour medium letting air circulate for weeks or a month. Oxygen getting to the PUFA and destroying it. No way. Grind it and start the baking process immediately.

http://www.mindbodygreen.com/0-12354/giving-up-gluten-why-you-should-say-hello-to-sourdough.html

http://www.celiac.com/articles/23145/1/Is-Sourdough-the-Future-of-Gluten-free-Bread/Page1.html

Make your own starter, bread:

http://allrecipes.com/recipes/bread/yeast-bread/sourdough-bread/

 

[narouz]

I like hearing your alternative (to Peat) microbiome views, Enoree.
Do you still have your appendix?

Yes, still have my appendix!

On the sprouted grain thing, remember you can definitely (I've now found out) reduce the gluten by making slooooow sourdough. Make your own starter too! I did this all years ago. Loved the bread. I think it's important though to get the flour fresh-ground, not in some store bought bag of flour. I ground my own in a stone mill. This is because, unlike Peat, I think it's the oxidation of PUFA that is the problem, not the fresh PUFA. Imagine PUFA containing wheat germ, ground up into tiny grains, sitting in a flour medium letting air circulate for weeks or a month. Oxygen getting to the PUFA and destroying it. No way. Grind it and start the baking process immediately.

http://www.mindbodygreen.com/0-12354/giving-up-gluten-why-you-should-say-hello-to-sourdough.html

http://www.celiac.com/articles/23145/1/Is-Sourdough-the-Future-of-Gluten-free-Bread/Page1.html

Make your own starter, bread:

http://allrecipes.com/recipes/bread/yeast-bread/sourdough-bread/

You'd think you might be able to buy
some amazing authentic sprouted grain bread online somewhere
and have it shipped....

If I wanted to make sprouted grain bread
I could buy a meat grinder--that's what many use.

I have a food processor...maybe that could do it...?