Need Help With Lowering Estrogen Even More

EnoreeG

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narouz said:
I guess, as a lover of fresh PUFA,
you might like to regularly eat fresh salmon or Patagonia Toothfish (Chilean Sea Bass)?
And you might like to eat a lot of very fresh walnuts, almonds, pecans, etc?
And very fresh avocados?
If you were traveling in the Middle East,
and you saw them actually harvesting the sesame seeds
and making it into tahini,
you would enjoy that in large amounts on a daily basis?[/font]

G'day, narouz. I've taken a vacation from Peatdom but checked back in today. I'll reply to this ending on your post, since I never did before.

Actually, I don't worry about PUFA intake. I just don't eat processed foods for the most part. I try to get foods as fresh as possible. This allows me to avoid oxidized fats, missing vitamins, depleted enzymes, etc. So by avoiding the processed stuff, which of course includes seed oils, restaurant food, etc., I don't get the PUFA that I think (my interpretation, to be sure) Peat warns of. That is, oxidized PUFA.

I don't seek out any of the foods you mentioned, from salmon, thru nuts, to tahini. I think you mentioned those because they have heavy amounts of PUFA? My take on PUFA is you can ignore it and you will still get it. You can run like hell from it and you will still get it. So just forget it. Nature brings it to you in small quantities. That's enough for me, though it might be too much for others. Why stress over it? Stress is a null, dead end.

So when I eat, say spinach, I get fresh alpha-linolinic acid (omega-3), but very little, but ALSO just the right amount! My body will make some DHA, etc. out of it if it thinks it needs it. I don't really care. But I certainly feel quite healthy and am quite content to pick some spinach from my garden and also some kale and just live on the omega-6 and omega-3 that comes to me that way -- trickle down, here a smidge, there even less. No need to eat a bunch of nuts, or fish or take supplements. And no need to worry about it or try to make logical sense out of it. As Nicolas said a week ago:

Nicolas said:
...that sort of "trying to make sense of it" and you find yourself hanging onto statements of others which causes stress....*****BECAUSE***** your gut knows that you have detached from it.....you have sold out to thinking more than feeling.....not trusting that your body and your body alone can give all the direction and research needed.

I think Nicolas eats well enough that he now trusts his body to tell him what he needs. I think if we could all do this, it might be nearly the end of the discussion. I'm working in that direction at least, more than I'm working toward heavier discourse. I hope this finds you feeling healthy!
 

EnoreeG

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haidut

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EnoreeG said:
haidut said:
OK, I will just summarize what I have seen/read and combine with what I have gotten from Peat.

Here's another study to read and combine with what you've gotten from Peat:

http://www.researchgate.net/profile...t_age_9_mo/links/53f5e85d0cf2fceacc6f7bd6.pdf

I am interested in your comments as well.

Interesting study. I was hoping that they will discuss the proposed mechanism of action as to how DHA resulted in better problem solving, but not improved recognition memory. In the Discussion section there is this somewhat out of place paragraph.
"...Iron is known to be important to fatty acid synthesis and infant cognitive development and therefore was included as a covariatein our regression model. Generally, fatty acid synthesis has been shown to be dependent on iron-dependent enzymes integral to the metabolic pathway (44). From a cognitive standpoint, iron deficiency is known to have profoundly negative effects on the dopaminergic system, affecting the function of the basal ganglia involved in procedural memory and motor function (45–47). Procedural memory and motor function are integral to performance on problem-solving tasks. Within our regression model, maternal hemoglobin and hematocrit during the third trimester were not significant, and maternal baseline hematocrit status was the most significant measure of iron status."

So, if I am reading it correctly, they imply that DHA supplementation imporved iron status, right? If that's the case then I think it would be a plausible explanation of why DHA supplementation was helpful. Many women have increased iron requirements during pregnancy and if DHA improved hematocrit values that would result in better fetal brain oxygenation.
 

EnoreeG

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haidut said:
EnoreeG said:
haidut said:
OK, I will just summarize what I have seen/read and combine with what I have gotten from Peat.

Here's another study to read and combine with what you've gotten from Peat:

http://www.researchgate.net/profile...t_age_9_mo/links/53f5e85d0cf2fceacc6f7bd6.pdf

I am interested in your comments as well.

Interesting study. I was hoping that they will discuss the proposed mechanism of action as to how DHA resulted in better problem solving, but not improved recognition memory. In the Discussion section there is this somewhat out of place paragraph.
"...Iron is known to be important to fatty acid synthesis and infant cognitive development and therefore was included as a covariatein our regression model. Generally, fatty acid synthesis has been shown to be dependent on iron-dependent enzymes integral to the metabolic pathway (44). From a cognitive standpoint, iron deficiency is known to have profoundly negative effects on the dopaminergic system, affecting the function of the basal ganglia involved in procedural memory and motor function (45–47). Procedural memory and motor function are integral to performance on problem-solving tasks. Within our regression model, maternal hemoglobin and hematocrit during the third trimester were not significant, and maternal baseline hematocrit status was the most significant measure of iron status."

So, if I am reading it correctly, they imply that DHA supplementation imporved iron status, right? If that's the case then I think it would be a plausible explanation of why DHA supplementation was helpful. Many women have increased iron requirements during pregnancy and if DHA improved hematocrit values that would result in better fetal brain oxygenation.

Actually, I have to admit that the paragraph you mention was not understandable. Could be my failing or the author's. It seems like "were not significant" means had no effect on our findings", but then it continues to say "baseline hematocrit status was the most significant measure of iron status"? What significance are they speaking of? I don't know.

I found they seem to feel the study was limited in that they did their measurements at only the age of 9 months. I think a lot of things could go in one direction at 9 months and then reverse, just as their "recognition" test showed there was already a decline in "visual attention" before the age of 9 months.

I found the study limited (costs have to be considered) because it took place at the early age of 9 months, because I think there could possibly have been shown more glaring differences in intelligence had it been done later in the infant's lives, plus, in normal situations, a mother ingesting more DHA during pregnancy would also take in more, and feed an infant more during the first 2 years of it's life when DHA is still shown to rapidly accumulate in an infant brain.

So we might take with a grain of salt the results, figuring they could be premature. However, they did cite a couple of other studies that ran longer that help the DHA case. For instance, the reference 25 Colombo study:

Maternal DHA and the Development of Attention in Infancy and Toddlerhood

stated:

"Infants whose mothers had high DHA at birth showed an accelerated decline in looking over the 1st year and increases in examining during single-object exploration and less distractibility in the 2nd year. These findings are consistent with evidence suggesting a link between DHA and cognitive development in infancy. "

That study did measurements at 12 and 18 months which gives a little more support to the idea that DHA could be continuing to enhance child brain development after 9 months.

On your hope "that they will discuss the proposed mechanism of action as to how DHA resulted in better problem solving" I noticed that they provided some information, in the original Research Gate study, on tissue taken from animal brains undergoing similar testing (2 levels of DHA and the effect on the animal infant brains) because obviously they couldn't take tissue samples from the human infants in their study, and they mention some "studies conducted on a cellular level in the animal model that link DHA supplementation with functional outcome.":

Research Gate DHA Study said:
These ex-aminations of DHA and central nervous system development
have focused primarily on nerve axon growth facilitated by the
growth cone, synaptic signaling, and alterations in neurotrans-
mitter production. In a hippocampal cell culture, Calderon et al
(53) showed that DHA significantly increased the population of
neurons with longer neurite length per neuron and a higher num-
ber of branches than were seen in other fatty acids. The growth
cone of the developing neuron appears to be particularly abun-
dant in DHA, and deficiency decreases neuronal growth cone
DHA concentrations, which results in an impairment of axonal
growth (6, 7). Membranes involved in synaptic communication
had significantly lower concentrations of DHA in deficient rats
than in control rats. Furthermore, DHA deficiency during gesta-
tion modified catecholamine biosynthesis in the brain, induced
behavioral disturbances, and decreased learning ability in off-
spring (54). DHA deficiency induced interruptions in the dopa-
minergic pathway and there were subsequent functional deficits
in the neonatal piglet model (48). These findings are of particular
interest because they link DHA deficiency, subsequent altered
brain development, and impaired functional status (48, 54)

I would say that since most mammals I've seen tested show a heavy accumulation of brain DHA during infancy, and since it's know this is a time of continuing brain development (size, function, etc.), that the information they've gathered from studies of piglets and rats might be indicative of DHA's role in better neuron development in human infants.

To me, the case for DHA at least, among all the substances we often glibly here call PUFA, seems to be quite strong as a vital substance for mental acumen, if not health. It might be a lot harder to prove "health" than to prove "intelligence". So in summation, Dr. Ray might go happily on his way saying that "PUFA" isn't essential, and be right as regards survival and health, but he might be missing something regarding intelligence and success in life. I say all this, admitting that I swore off all forms of supplemental fish oil over 4 years ago, and still feel reluctant to take such supplements. But my reasoning is more based on quality than the the essence of DHA, EPA, etc. If I'm to dose up on DHA, I think an acceptable form might be fresh animal brain if one needs a large dose. I wouldn't even want to eat the "DHA containing cereal based bar" they gave the women in this study.

For now, since I'm an adult, I'll let my body form some DHA from some omega-3 that I get from my food and not even focus on a single food that is "high" in omega-3. I never did, and I'm not starting now. Apparently it doesn't take much to keep one alert, and if high quantities of fish-oil provided some sort of super mental boost, those fish-oil poppers would be lording it over all of us already and making us quite miserable admitting their great advantage.
 

dd99

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EnoreeG, haidut, thanks for the interesting discussion on DHA in infants and during pregnancy. I am confused, though. Should my pregnant wife and two year old son be chowing down salmon steaks every week, despite their instinctive aversion to them? Or is their varied diet of dairy, eggs, white fish, shellfish, liver, red meat, fruit and well cooked veg enough to provide the DHA these studies indicate they need?
 

haidut

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dd99 said:
EnoreeG, haidut, thanks for the interesting discussion on DHA in infants and during pregnancy. I am confused, though. Should my pregnant wife and two year old son be chowing down salmon steaks every week, despite their instinctive aversion to them? Or is their varied diet of dairy, eggs, white fish, shellfish, liver, red meat, fruit and well cooked veg enough to provide the DHA these studies indicate they need?

I'd venture an opinion that grass fed beef, milk, and eggs have all the omega-3 you need (assuming you need any at all). Eating tons of cold-water fish is not good even for bears. There are cases of yellow fat disease in bears gorging themselves on salmon. I doubt humans can reach that level of salmon intake but it's something to keep in mind. Also, most of the salmon sold in markets is farmed and its fat profile is terrible considering it is fed mainly soy.
 

EnoreeG

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dd99 said:
EnoreeG, haidut, thanks for the interesting discussion on DHA in infants and during pregnancy. I am confused, though. Should my pregnant wife and two year old son be chowing down salmon steaks every week, despite their instinctive aversion to them? Or is their varied diet of dairy, eggs, white fish, shellfish, liver, red meat, fruit and well cooked veg enough to provide the DHA these studies indicate they need?

Great question, dd99. First of all, I don't think either study I looked at specified a specific amount of DHA that would be required to give good brain development. The studies just showed that some additional quantity resulted in quicker and better brain/nerve development. Remember this brain development goes on for at least 2 years after birth, so my take is, if the brain develops quicker early after birth, thanks to adequate DHA, when a baby is doing very heavy learning, that child is going to have a great head-start (pardon the pun) in life.

Having said that, I still don't think a universal rule of "more is better" is applicable. Human civilization got where it is without knowledge of DHA, including all the genius present. And no study has yet shown that certain civilizations, from eating fish or brains, has come out with a lot of geniuses, though there was a study I read that said Chinese tend to eat DHA rich foods, and Japanese almost as much, and these countries are known for excellent minds. There are studies showing that excess consumption of fish-oil supplements by adults can actually bring on mental problems. Check the case studies here:

Unsaturated oils and membranes

So as I said above, I definitely go with your plan of getting the DHA needed for wife and kids from whole, healthy food sources. If you can't get local sourced free range chicken eggs, then the "Omega-3" advertised eggs at the market tend to have 5 times the omega-3 (including DHA parent material) of conventional eggs.

Your meal plan sounds great to me, and preferable to depending on salmon steaks. Variety is always best. BTW, spinach is a great source of parent omega-3, and has 5 times as much omega-3 as it has omega-6. But every food, even Ray's recommended carrots, have omega-3 and it will be converted to DHA in your body as required.
 

Philomath

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As I understand it, children are born "deficient" in pufa and born with sterile guts.
Why would nature create an amazing filter like the placenta and use it to keep out "beneficial" elements? Maybe they aren't so necessary

As far as DHA and the Omega's, what we get from dairy is probably more than enough.

As far as gut microbes, I consider 99% of my gut microbes as parasites. I think very few (if any) are commensal.
From what we know, a highly energized and efficient cell can defend itself against viruses and bacteria. I don't think we need commensal bacteria for help. Their toxic byproducts contribute to the low energy state that makes us dependent on them.

Cymothoa exigua, or the tongue-eating louse. This parasite enters fish through the gills, and then attaches itself to the fish's tongue. The parasite severs the blood vessels in the fish's tongue, causing the tongue to fall off. It then attaches itself to the stub of what was once its tongue and becomes the fish's new tongue

Do you think over time the fish justifies the existence of the parasitic louse acting as his tongue?
.... "Well, the louse actually eats the bad stuff that I normally might swallow and get sick from, thank you louse.." Mr. Fish
 
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Peata

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Someone else suggested it already, but I will be more specific. I posted studies that show that tocopherols act like true estrogen "receptor" antagonists - i.e. they bind to the same receptors as estrogen but cause opposite effects in the cell. More specifically, taking 2,500mg of mixed tocopherols per day for 4 weeks reduces plasma estrogen by more than 65%. That's basically on par with what an AI drug like anastrozole will do.
Keep us posted on the results if you decide to go the vitamin E route.

This is an old post, but I have tried 3 different Vitamin E's over the years without it making a difference. Now I am using Swanson's Ultra Maximum-Strength Gamma Tocopherols. I have more confidence in this one but I'm wondering how much to take. Each softgel is 200 IU alpha tocopherol ; 750 mg. Gamma Tocopherol and 290 mg. delta/beta tocopherol complex. I have been taking 2 of these per day, but is that enough to make a noticeable difference?
 
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haidut

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This is an old post, but I have tried 3 different Vitamin E's over the years without it making a difference. Now I am using Swanson's Ultra Maximum-Strength Gamma Tocopherols. I have more confidence in this one but I'm wondering how much to take. Each softgel is 200 IU alpha tocopherol ; 750 mg. Gamma Tocopherol and 290 mg. delta/beta tocopherol complex. I have been taking 2 of these per day, but is that enough to make a noticeable difference?

I think it should be more than enough. One of the studies on tocopherols for breast cancer commented that for humans, 500mg mixed tocopherols achieve the optimal concentration used in the study and 500mg is about 750 IU. This is very close to the study I posted on tocopherol being estrogen antagonist where the estimate on effective concentration was that 600 IU - 700 IU daily would achieve it. The only issue is that the breast cancer study found that the effects on estrogen did not become significant until after 3 months into the therapy. So, it may take some time to manifest.
 

thegiantess

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I think it should be more than enough. One of the studies on tocopherols for breast cancer commented that for humans, 500mg mixed tocopherols achieve the optimal concentration used in the study and 500mg is about 750 IU. This is very close to the study I posted on tocopherol being estrogen antagonist where the estimate on effective concentration was that 600 IU - 700 IU daily would achieve it. The only issue is that the breast cancer study found that the effects on estrogen did not become significant until after 3 months into the therapy. So, it may take some time to manifest.
That's amazing. So then is there any argument against taking Vitamin E on a regular basis? I have a few dear friends who I think would really benefit, but it seems to me that a lot of nutrition folks have the idea that supplemental E is bad.
 
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Peata

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I think it should be more than enough. One of the studies on tocopherols for breast cancer commented that for humans, 500mg mixed tocopherols achieve the optimal concentration used in the study and 500mg is about 750 IU. This is very close to the study I posted on tocopherol being estrogen antagonist where the estimate on effective concentration was that 600 IU - 700 IU daily would achieve it. The only issue is that the breast cancer study found that the effects on estrogen did not become significant until after 3 months into the therapy. So, it may take some time to manifest.

Do you think I can get by with lowering it to one gelcap per day? Besides the expense of taking extra, I don't want to cause too much blood thinning or other issues. Thanks for your replies.
 
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one thing to keep in mind is that there is some antagonism between K2 and E. I woudln't take them at the same time, and it seems that tissues high in E are low in K2. Not sure what to make of this...
 

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That's amazing. So then is there any argument against taking Vitamin E on a regular basis? I have a few dear friends who I think would really benefit, but it seems to me that a lot of nutrition folks have the idea that supplemental E is bad.

Given that most people nowadays are bloated with PUFA I think pretty much anybody can benefit from vitamin E. Why would supplemental vitamin E be bad? What is the reason given, assuming it is not related to impurities?
 

haidut

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Do you think I can get by with lowering it to one gelcap per day? Besides the expense of taking extra, I don't want to cause too much blood thinning or other issues. Thanks for your replies.

I think one gelcap Unique E is probably more than enough unless a person is diabetic and has very high levels of FFA in the blood which sometimes require a combination of niacinamide, aspirin and vitamin E to reign in. People with high estrone and/or spider veins can also use a little extra.
 
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Peata

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I think one gelcap Unique E is probably more than enough unless a person is diabetic and has very high levels of FFA in the blood which sometimes require a combination of niacinamide, aspirin and vitamin E to reign in. People with high estrone and/or spider veins can also use a little extra.

It's not Unique E, it's Swanson's Ultra Maximum-Strength Gamma Tocopherols, Each contains 200 IU alpha tocopherol ; 750 mg. Gamma Tocopherol and 290 mg. delta/beta tocopherol complex.
 

haidut

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It's not Unique E, it's Swanson's Ultra Maximum-Strength Gamma Tocopherols, Each contains 200 IU alpha tocopherol ; 750 mg. Gamma Tocopherol and 290 mg. delta/beta tocopherol complex.

In that case, one gelcap should be more than enough.
 
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In that case, one gelcap should be more than enough.

Thank you. After five days of taking two per day, I'm just taking one per day now. I am interested in your idea from a while back where you said something like Vitamin E is stored in the liver and can last 48+ hours, so a person might be able to take it a few times per week instead of daily. For now I am taking it daily but at some point I would like to try spacing out the dose.
 

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