Magnesium Citrate - Caution

[yerrag]

"Magnesium citrate is a magnesium preparation in salt form with citric acid in a 1:1 ratio (1 magnesium atom per citrate molecule)."

Quantitative Assessment of Citric Acid in Lemon Juice, Lime Juice, and Commercially-Available Fruit Juice Products

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There's more to citrate than being said here, it seems. If citric acid is harmful, what makes it harmful and why aren't lemons being avoided? Is it because the goodness of vitamin C in it makes up for it?

On magnesium citrate, I've been taking more of it in the past few days, as much as 2 grams of it over 4 doses. I noticed that my arthritic knee felt better, likely from the magnesium intake, but my blood pressure shot up. Maybe it's the citrate?

The molar weight of magnesium and magnesium citrate is 43 and 214 respectively. I didn't do the math earlier, so it seems like I'm taking only a small amount of magnesium 2*43/214 = 350 mg (which still is in the ballpark of daily intake value recommended as a 1:4 ratio of calcium intake). But my citrate intake is 1650mg.

I still want to increase my magnesium intake and work my way up to 1500mg/day on a 1:1 ratio with calcium (as an answer to my lead toxicity), but now realize that I cannot do it with magnesium citrate. Barring any delay, I'll have my own magnesium bicarbonate made with my DIY carbonated water in about 3 weeks.

Goodbye to magnesium citrate. Magnesium bicarbonate - here I come!

 

[yerrag]

I just realized that I spelled my death sentence with my plan of working my way up to 1500 mg magnesium/day with magnesium bicarbonate. The bicarbonate will be too much for my system.

Looks like I need to take different form of magnesium, that added up will give me 1500mg elemental magnesium:

-magnesium bicarbonate - limited by a safe level of daily bicarbonate intake
-magnesium chloride - is there a limit to the chloride intake?
-other forms?

 

[yerrag]

There are tests but the only test that truly indicates intercellular magnesium levels (which is what matters) is an EXATest which is hard to get and relatively expensive.
Magnesium Test: Intracellular Analysis for Heart Disease, A Fib, Arrhythmia, Stroke: EXA Test

Here is something interesting from Potassium Nutrition in Heart Disease, Rheumatoid Arthritis, Gout, Diabetes, and Metabolic Shock, by Charles E. Weber, MS, 2011 location 1703 (Kindle ebook):

A test for magnesium deficiency is to inject 2.4 milligrams of magnesium per kilogram of body weight over 4 hours and urine collected for 24 hours. If 25% of the magnesium is retained a deficiency is probable. If 50% of the magnesium is retained a deficiency is certain [Rude]

Rude RK1998 Magnesium deficiency: A cause of heterogenous disease in humans, Journal of Bone and Mineral Research 13(4):749-758.

Magnesium Deficiency: A Cause of Heterogenous Disease in Humans - Rude - 1998 - Journal of Bone and Mineral Research - Wiley Online Library

Not having read the reference, it appears that if I know what kind of magnesium salt to inject, and when I hire a nurse to inject it, it would cost far less to determine if I have magnesium deficiency. Having the urine collected over 24 hours seems easy enough, and having the urine tested for magnesium would not cost that much either.

 

[yerrag]

Good information. I used to take citrate, but now I take magnesium chloride, and I think food sources are ideal.

I highly suspect that my daily intake of 4.8 grams of MgCl2 has made me less healthy. The chloride creates an acidic load because it turns into HCl, a strong acid, and acidifies blood. 5 months of it has led me to frequent urination, poor sleep (from the frequent urination), and lowered my metabolism. I got susceptible to allergies that I had overcome (MSG and pollen).

I also ended up burping a lot and passing odorless gas.

I was taking it together with ascorbic acid with ascorbic acid at 6.75g/day. At first I blamed it on ascorbic acid (the word "acid" says it all). But then I checked the pKa of ascorbic acid, and it turns out it is a weak acid only. So it's more likely that my daily intake of Mg Cl2 is the cause.

How much magnesium chloride are you taking?

 

[DaveFoster]

I highly suspect that my daily intake of 4.8 grams of MgCl2 has made me less healthy. The chloride creates an acidic load because it turns into HCl, a strong acid, and acidifies blood. 5 months of it has led me to frequent urination, poor sleep (from the frequent urination), and lowered my metabolism. I got susceptible to allergies that I had overcome (MSG and pollen).

I also ended up burping a lot and passing odorless gas.

I was taking it together with ascorbic acid with ascorbic acid at 6.75g/day. At first I blamed it on ascorbic acid (the word "acid" says it all). But then I checked the pKa of ascorbic acid, and it turns out it is a weak acid only. So it's more likely that my daily intake of Mg Cl2 is the cause.

How much magnesium chloride are you taking?

I was taking it topically in water at the standard amount for sprays.

I haven't used magnesium supplements in months, but when I do, I use Dan Wich's recipe on toxinless.com

Magnesium bicarbonate supplementation - Toxinless

 

[yerrag]

I was taking it topically in water at the standard amount for sprays.

I haven't used magnesium supplements in months, but when I do, I use Dan Wich's recipe on toxinless.com

Magnesium bicarbonate supplementation - Toxinless

Thanks. It seems like I have to get on with my shelved project of making my own magnesium bicarbonate.

 

[DaveFoster]

Thanks. It seems like I have to get on with my shelved project of making my own magnesium bicarbonate.

It's easier to just mix the hydroxide powder with water in a glass, dump it into a 2-liter with a funnel (I use soda, not water), cap it quickly and let it settle for a while. It takes about 2 minutes.

 

[yerrag]

It's easier to just mix the hydroxide powder with water in a glass, dump it into a 2-liter with a funnel (I use soda, not water), cap it quickly and let it settle for a while. It takes about 2 minutes.

Soda water is expensive here. There's just a small market here, which makes it so.

 

[DaveFoster]

Soda water is expensive here. There's just a small market here, which makes it so.

I see. I meant soda pop by the way, not soda water; I'm not sure if the jargon's different.

 

[yerrag]

I see. I meant soda pop by the way, not soda water; I'm not sure if the jargon's different.

Oh. Won't there be reactions with the other contents like phosphoric acid and the like?

 

[DaveFoster]

Oh. Won't there be reactions with the other contents like phosphoric acid and the like?

Magnesium hydroxide + citric acid = magnesium citrate

Magnesium hydroxide + phosphoric acid = magnesium phosphate

Vendors sell both the citrate and phosphate versions as supplements.

 

[yerrag]

Magnesium hydroxide + citric acid = magnesium citrate

Magnesium hydroxide + phosphoric acid = magnesium phosphate

Vendors sell both the citrate and phosphate versions as supplements.

I may be ok with the citrate, but not with the phosphate. Not a concern if I were using it occasionally, but for use daily for an extended period, I'm concerned with the phosphate increasing the acid load on blood. On the other hand, if I'm getting much more bicarbonates over phosphates, I may just get a net alkaline effect, and it won't be bad at all.

Have you run the numbers?

 

[Lokzo]

Wow, this couldn't have been more perfectly timed. I was stupid enough to use Magnesium Citrate for months on end, which I am pretty sure was causing GI distress but most importantly, muscle spasms all over my body, particularly my eye-lids.

 

[DaveFoster]

I may be ok with the citrate, but not with the phosphate. Not a concern if I were using it occasionally, but for use daily for an extended period, I'm concerned with the phosphate increasing the acid load on blood. On the other hand, if I'm getting much more bicarbonates over phosphates, I may just get a net alkaline effect, and it won't be bad at all.

Have you run the numbers?

Dr. Peat doesn't mind the phosphoric acid in soda pop, and the hydroxide would neutralize the acidity.

 

[yerrag]

Dr. Peat doesn't mind the phosphoric acid in soda pop, and the hydroxide would neutralize the acidity.

Maybe the phosphoric acid concentration in minimal? And whatever is there can, as you say, be easily neutralized.

I could use soda to just get going with supplementing with mag bicarb. I'll have to look at the ingredient labels and find one soda brand that's using sugar over HFCS, and if there's one using citric acid over one using phosphoric acid.

Thanks Dave.

 

[DaveFoster]

Maybe the phosphoric acid concentration in minimal? And whatever is there can, as you say, be easily neutralized.

I could use soda to just get going with supplementing with mag bicarb. I'll have to look at the ingredient labels and find one soda brand that's using sugar over HFCS, and if there's one using citric acid over one using phosphoric acid.

Thanks Dave.

Citric acid would be more of a concern, but both should be neutralized if you're worried strictly about acidity.

 

[yerrag]

Citric acid itself causes you to lose calcium in your urine.

Does anyone know how citric acid causes calcium to be lost in urine? Ray Peat did not elaborate.

Here is something interesting from Potassium Nutrition in Heart Disease, Rheumatoid Arthritis, Gout, Diabetes, and Metabolic Shock, by Charles E. Weber, MS, 2011 location 1703 (Kindle ebook):

A test for magnesium deficiency is to inject 2.4 milligrams of magnesium per kilogram of body weight over 4 hours and urine collected for 24 hours. If 25% of the magnesium is retained a deficiency is probable. If 50% of the magnesium is retained a deficiency is certain [Rude]

Rude RK1998 Magnesium deficiency: A cause of heterogenous disease in humans, Journal of Bone and Mineral Research 13(4):749-758.

Magnesium Deficiency: A Cause of Heterogenous Disease in Humans - Rude - 1998 - Journal of Bone and Mineral Research - Wiley Online Library

Not having read the reference, it appears that if I know what kind of magnesium salt to inject, and when I hire a nurse to inject it, it would cost far less to determine if I have magnesium deficiency. Having the urine collected over 24 hours seems easy enough, and having the urine tested for magnesium would not cost that much either.

I finally know what magnesium salt to use. It is "epsom salt" magnesium sulfate. Here's a study on using IV magnesium sulfate to alleviate headaches: Intravenous magnesium sulfate rapidly alleviates headaches of various types. - PubMed - NCBI

CONCLUSIONS:
Intravenous infusion of 1 gram of MgSO4 results in rapid relief of headache pain in patients with low serum IMg2+ levels. Measurement of serum IMg2+ levels may have a practical application in many types of headache patients. Low serum and brain tissue ionized magnesium levels may precipitate headache symptoms in susceptible patients.

I hope I get around to testing my "real" magnesium status. I can get a nurse to help me do an IV infusion of a magnesium sulfate solution. I have to find a good USP grade of magnesium sulfate.

Citric acid would be more of a concern, but both should be neutralized if you're worried strictly about acidity.

When we're getting 9x citrate over magnesium, I guess using large amounts of citrate would be excessive.

 

[yerrag]

Citric acid would be more of a concern, but both should be neutralized if you're worried strictly about acidity.

I just found out that phosphoric acid is a weak acid, so my concerns on phosphoric acid in soda is overblown. And that's probably why Peat considers it not a concern in soda.

When we're getting 9x citrate over magnesium, I guess using large amounts of citrate would be excessive.

The reason to avoid citrate is because Ray Peat says it causes calcium to be urinated. But not really because there's 9x as much of it than magnesium by weight, as really on a molar basis its 1:1.

 

[michael94]

I just found out that phosphoric acid is a weak acid, so my concerns on phosphoric acid in soda is overblown. And that's probably why Peat considers it not a concern in soda.

The reason to avoid citrate is because Ray Peat says it causes calcium to be urinated. But not really because there's 9x as much of it than magnesium by weight, as really on a molar basis its 1:1.

What constitutes a weak acid? I always thought phosphoric acid was strong at dissolving things. I had some interesting experiences with concentrated phosphoric acid as a supplement.

 

[yerrag]

What constitutes a weak acid? I always thought phosphoric acid was strong at dissolving things. I had some interesting experiences with concentrated phosphoric acid as a supplement.

Had to look up Quora for answers:

https://www.quora.com/Is-phosphoric-acid-a-strong-acid