Low Libido and TipToeing into Peat

[bwilly1979]

I've been mostly paleo for 4 years now. I'm incredibly fit and I truly enjoy training with intensity. I have noticed though that every time I reach a level of fitness my hormones feel off and my libido comes crashing down. By coincidence I found Ray Peat via Danny Roddy. I've started adding more sugar into my diet and even milk & ice cream. I've gotta say that I feel pretty bloated as a result of it. I'm not science guy so interpreting some of Peat's writings is difficult but I seem to keep finding posts by Haidut on this board and wanted to ask what the best approach for regaining/maintaining Libido in men is. I feel fine about everything except the Libido and occasional ups and downs in mood.

I see posts such as these but the dosages and recommendations differ slightly and I want to make sure that if I'm supplementing (in addition to eating Peat) that I'm doing it properly and with a purpose.

Stats:
35 y/o
Male
6'5"
195lbs - Fit

Posts:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3048&p=50634&hilit=libido#p50634
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=477&hilit=libido&start=10

 

[Gl;itch.e]

Hey Bwilly. Good to have another "fitness" guy on here. I dont see any actual questions though so I dont know what I can offer. When you say that you feel your hormones and libido are off when you are at a level of fitness are you referring to low body fat or at the peak of exercise performance? Are you usually dieting or restricting at this point? Basically coming off of paleo (especially if low carb) you are just going to need to get your body accustomed to the different foods you may introduce slowly.

Either way Im keen on using a peatish eye for experimentation with regards to body composition and exercise performance so if you want to throw some ideas around go for it.

 

[tinkerer]

bwilly, We can learn from your history. How many calories and grams of carbs were you consuming when your libido crashed and how many are you consuming now? What were your top 5-10 staple foods before and what are they now, beyond sugar (table sugar?), milk and ice cream? Do you have any of the following data from before and/or now?

armpit or oral temperature - basal and mid-day
resting pulse
blood pressure
sleep quality
avg frequency of dream recall
avg frequency of morning erections

 

[jaywills]

Bwilly,

I do beleive you have stumbled to the right place, and there is light at the end of the tunnel. I was diagnosed low test last summer, and had zero libido for 2 years prior. I too was following a paleo diet and am into fitness/training etc. I dieted into ab-lean but to all health consequences. Having raised my calories/fructose/sugar cosnumption, i am now off HRT and my libido has returned in full vengeance.

I beleive key to peat is lowering stress, in particular cortisol. Sugar does that, and that is why it is so essential to increase. My advice, increase calories/sugar slowly. Say 10g of carbs a week. On this forum, people are quick to say you need to be eating a huge surplus to recover (and you do for recovery, they are right). However for a comprimised metabolism and for one who has been low carbing, you will put on considerable body fat if you just ramp up your carbs/cals overnight. Do a softer approach. This takes longer but i am offering advice from personal experience. I have gone abs-lean --> overweight/puffy following peat because of a swift jump in cals/lowering of excersise.

Lambs liver/vitamin is essential in my experience. I notice a huge libido jump later in the day if i eat it at lunch, so try eating liver if you do not already.

Glitche, i have a question for you regarding body composition; how do I (now overweight) lose my gained body fat whilst keeping carbs high? I feel i need the saturated fats in my diet for hormonal maintence, but with high carbs even at a calorie deficit 2000kcl a day, male, 22, 12stone 5 and with muscle mass, i cannot drop the added fat?

I dont mean to hijack this thread but i am sure the naswer to my question will help you bwilly too!

 

[Gl;itch.e]

Glitche, i have a question for you regarding body composition; how do I (now overweight) lose my gained body fat whilst keeping carbs high? I feel i need the saturated fats in my diet for hormonal maintence, but with high carbs even at a calorie deficit 2000kcl a day, male, 22, 12stone 5 and with muscle mass, i cannot drop the added fat?

A 2000 calorie deficit?!? or are you eating 2000 calories?

12 1/2 stone (roughly what 80kilos?) isnt exactly overweight depending on your height. You are not a midget I assume?

Personally I haven't tried losing weight on a peat influenced diet yet. I have gained weight on it intentionally and find it hard to add more weight after a point (raised metabolic rate I'm assuming). I would imagine the best way would be to remove some fat, be more careful with amounts and types of carbs (starches only after weight training if at all) and make sure that you are getting enough of the minerals like sodium, potassium and magnesium. All while having a slight calorie deficit.

 

[jaywills]

No, eating 2000 kcals. This should, for a man of my size 5 foot 10, 80kg with some muscle mass, be a enough for me to drop fat. For me, 80kg would not be regarded as overweight no, but i have fat situated on my chest area and stomach area and ideally I would like to see my abs again.

Thanks for the suggestions.

 

[tara]

No, eating 2000 kcals. This should, for a man of my size 5 foot 10, 80kg with some muscle mass, be a enough for me to drop fat. For me, 80kg would not be regarded as overweight no, but i have fat situated on my chest area and stomach area and ideally I would like to see my abs again.

Thanks for the suggestions.

This a severe energy deficit, especially if you are training too. You risk suppressing your metabolism. Speaking from theory more than experience, your body may be wisely protecting you from the famine it is experiencing by holding onto some fat. It is unlikely to be enough to support long term health.

 

[visionofstrength]

First, a caveat: RP's answer to why do we make fat runs counter to the orthodoxy taught in university, so if you have ever gotten information from a health professional about this, what you've been told is wrong, if RP is right.

The answer goes something like this (with apologies to RP if I've got it wrong): the body makes fat when insulin is secreted, and insulin is secreted when the body runs out of glycogen. So, how to prevent the body from making fat? Don't run out of glycogen! This means many small meals of milk and sugar. Going too long between meals, or cutting back on calories only leads the body (as Tara suggests) to hold even more fat over those abs you would like to see again.

One more problem: since hypothyroidism and unsaturated fats interfere with the body's ability to use or store glycogen efficiently in the first place, this also means avoiding unsaturated fats and supplementing thyroid.

Best to you. Please let us know how it works out for you?

 

[bwilly1979]

Wow! All great replies. Thanks very much.

I guess I should've actually asked a question. The question is - while I'm figuring out how to eat Peat are there any supplements I could go with that would get the ball rolling downhill in the right direction in the libido dept? As per an older post by @Haidut he recommended 5G of BCAA's, 2000MG of Tocopherals, 30G Zinc, Magnesium. Does anyone have any experience with this? Anyone have any other insight into supplements? I started in with @Haiduts recommendation about a week ago and feel there is a positive difference but that could all be psychosomatic.

Milk/Cheese are typically pretty hard on the belly for me and make me feel bloated. I think that Jaywills might be onto something by recommending ramping up slowly rather than going from no sugar to a substantial amount. Presently I'm quite lean and have a solid set of abs. I'm ok losing some of that in an effort to feel better, but I don't want to walk around feeling bloated and uncomfortable. I'm adding carot salad daily to see how/if that helps. I have to admit that it seems that most people on the RP diet don't actually EAT a lot. It seems like a ton of liquid (Milk/OJ). I feel like I'm going to be starving when I'm training and not consuming food. My body craves a huge steak after a big workout.

Secondary Question - as I read through the forums here I keep seeing info about supplementation for the Thyroid. I have supplemented with Iodine before and WOW I feLT like i was 19 again in the beginning. After some time it stopped being as effective. Since Iodine and the Thyroid have such a close relationship I'm inclined to think that I should read further about Thyroid supplementation and Thyroid issues. Can anyone recommend a good starting place? There is so much info on the forums and on RP's website that I'm having a tough time deciphering it. As i said before, i'm not a big science guy...

Thanks again for all the feedback!

 

[Gl;itch.e]

Wow! All great replies. Thanks very much.

I guess I should've actually asked a question. The question is - while I'm figuring out how to eat Peat are there any supplements I could go with that would get the ball rolling downhill in the right direction in the libido dept? As per an older post by @Haidut he recommended 5G of BCAA's, 2000MG of Tocopherals, 30G Zinc, Magnesium. Does anyone have any experience with this? Anyone have any other insight into supplements? I started in with @Haiduts recommendation about a week ago and feel there is a positive difference but that could all be psychosomatic.

My recommendations would be similar. Since you are exercising the BCAAs are just going to be a good all round supplement for you and your training anyway. Id also recommend Vitamin B6 with the Zinc (and that'd be 30mgs of zinc, not grams!). Salt definitely made a big difference for me when first weaning off low carb.

You could potentially get a lot out of Taurine IMO (using at least one serving of 3g after a workout) since you are both adjusting to more carbs and exercising intensely. This has some impact on dopamine levels as well which could help with libido significantly.

http://www.ergo-log.com/taurine-for-mor ... erone.html
http://www.ergo-log.com/taurine-boosts- ... scles.html
http://www.ergo-log.com/best-high-prote ... ycine.html

Milk/Cheese are typically pretty hard on the belly for me and make me feel bloated. I think that Jaywills might be onto something by recommending ramping up slowly rather than going from no sugar to a substantial amount. Presently I'm quite lean and have a solid set of abs. I'm ok losing some of that in an effort to feel better, but I don't want to walk around feeling bloated and uncomfortable. I'm adding carot salad daily to see how/if that helps. I have to admit that it seems that most people on the RP diet don't actually EAT a lot. It seems like a ton of liquid (Milk/OJ). I feel like I'm going to be starving when I'm training and not consuming food. My body craves a huge steak after a big workout.

Theres no reason you can't have a steak after a workout. I eat red meat practically every day. Just try to off-set the excess phosphate. Drink a nice big glass of milk with the steak to add some calcium and then maybe follow this meal with some sugary foods like ice cream, fruits etc. Fructose helps with the excretion of excess phosphate. If you eat meat during the day it might be a good idea to drink a coffee with that meal to inhibit some of the iron absorption.

 

[tinkerer]

Wow! All great replies. Thanks very much.

I guess I should've actually asked a question. The question is - while I'm figuring out how to eat Peat are there any supplements I could go with that would get the ball rolling downhill in the right direction in the libido dept? ...

What if any supplements to use depends on your individual needs and goals. There's a Supplement Subforum and Peaty List here: viewforum.php?f=3

I'm interested in your answers to my questions, if you have a chance. Thanks.

 

[bwilly1979]

bwilly, We can learn from your history. How many calories and grams of carbs were you consuming when your libido crashed and how many are you consuming now? What were your top 5-10 staple foods before and what are they now, beyond sugar (table sugar?), milk and ice cream? Do you have any of the following data from before and/or now?

armpit or oral temperature - basal and mid-day
resting pulse
blood pressure
sleep quality
avg frequency of dream recall
avg frequency of morning erections

One of my favorite things about eating paleo/primal/whatever you want to call it was the lack of measuring. Pretty simple rules - eat real food, eat meat, veggies, a little bit of fruit and a little bit of seeds/nuts - no dairy, no legumes, no sugar other than from fruit. In general I ate a lot of chicken, steak, pork chops, fish (1x a week). Always had 2 sides of veggies. Sweet potatos 1-2x a week. I wasn't affraid of fruit like the hardcore paleos but I didn't seek it out as a staple in my meals. Last thing to mention is I like to drink wine 1-2 days a week.

Temp, resting pulse, blood pressure, frequency of dream recall - never tracked. Sleep quality and Morning Erection ranged from great to terrible. These are frustrating be/c I'd like to be just be consistently good and I have no idea what the triggers are for it to turn from good to bad. Sorry these are broad answers - i just never tracked them.

I would like to start tracking temperature / pulse rate. What time of day should I be doing and how frequently? Also, someone recommended Stop the Thyroid Madness book. Thoughts on this?

 

[tinkerer]

Here are some of Ray Peat's points and tips on the topic:

> "Healthy and intelligent groups of people have been found to have an average resting pulse rate of 85/minute, while less healthy groups average close to 70/minute."
> "By watching the temperature and pulse rate at different times of day, especially before and after meals, it's possible to separate some of the effects of stress from the thyroid-dependent, relatively “basal” metabolic rate."
(Source: a Ray Peat newsletter article entitled "TSH, temperature, pulse rate, and other indicators in hypothyroidism," which is also hosted here: http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/hy ... dism.shtml)

> "-In order to burn PUFAs in body, important to keep body temperature around 98.4 Fahrenheit. To that effect, must have healthy thryoid." (via Charlie at viewtopic.php?p=1042)

"Best times to take temperature and pulse:

* Upon wakening in bed and lying down, prior to sitting up. If the night time stress is very high, the adrenalin will still be high until breakfast, increasing both temperature and pulse rate.
* 20 min after each meal and snack. After eating breakfast, the cortisol (and adrenalin, if it stayed high despite the increased cortisol) will start returning to a more normal, lower level, as the blood sugar is sustained by food, instead of by the stress hormones. Normally, both temperature and pulse rate rise after breakfast, but in hypothyroid people either, or both, might fall.
* Prior to going to bed"
(Body Temperature and PULSE! Posted on December 12, 2012 by Josh & Jeanne Rubin in The Metabolic Blueprint Video, http://eastwesthealing.com/body-tempearture-and-pulse)

Some resting heart rates for various ages and genders can be found here: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/th ... ost1369496

 

[tomisonbottom]

First, a caveat: RP's answer to why do we make fat runs counter to the orthodoxy taught in university, so if you have ever gotten information from a health professional about this, what you've been told is wrong, if RP is right.

The answer goes something like this (with apologies to RP if I've got it wrong): the body makes fat when insulin is secreted, and insulin is secreted when the body runs out of glycogen. So, how to prevent the body from making fat? Don't run out of glycogen! This means many small meals of milk and sugar. Going too long between meals, or cutting back on calories only leads the body (as Tara suggests) to hold even more fat over those abs you would like to see again.

One more problem: since hypothyroidism and unsaturated fats interfere with the body's ability to use or store glycogen efficiently in the first place, this also means avoiding unsaturated fats and supplementing thyroid.

Best to you. Please let us know how it works out for you?

What do you consider "many small meals?" Because RP said to eat according to appetite, but I often don't have much appetite. So i think I'm not eating enough, but since I'm hypo, I don't want to eat when I'm not hungry and gain fat either.......

 

[visionofstrength]

Yes, I see what you mean, tb. I think Peat's newer strategies suggest that you should try not to go more than two hours without eating, at least some sugar and protein, and preferably also some saturated fat. It is very important to keep protein and fructose/glycogen supplied at all times, and if you are hypothyroid your liver may not store enough glycogen to hold you over for more than two hours.

But small amounts are fine, even if you are just sipping at a sugared coffee with nonfat milk, or nibbling a cheesestick, and a chocolate bar. Whatever works for you. It's really incredibly easy. I use honey and cocoa butter as my go to snack, but I am never far away from a fructose bowl.

Please, do not use starch for this! Fat things will happen!

But as long as you can keep sugar/glycogen in your liver (and do the small frequent "uncouplers" of thyroid/aspirin/progesterone/DHEA), from sugar or fructose and not starch, then you will not gain weight. Gaining fat comes from the other way, when you run out of fructose/glycogen and your body goes into cortisol stress/shock, and protects itself by storing fat.

 

[Filip1993]

"Please, do not use starch for this! Fat things will happen!"- Vos
Why do you think starch is fattening? Look at the McDougall people, they are super lean. There might be other problems with starch, harder to digest for example, but I definitely don't think they are fattening as long as your fat intake is relatively low.

 

[visionofstrength]

"Please, do not use starch for this! Fat things will happen!"- Vos
Why do you think starch is fattening? Look at the McDougall people, they are super lean. There might be other problems with starch, harder to digest for example, but I definitely don't think they are fattening as long as your fat intake is relatively low.

I've not heard of McDougall and probably would subject anything they've done to a rigorous scientific inquiry, if I had the time to do that. Much of what passes for science is nothing but overhyped article spam. When you look at the so-called studies, there are no careful controls, and worse, the underlying assumptions about biophysics are based on Mitchell's foolish idea of chemiosmotic membran pumps.

Peat, Ling and Henderson have proved (to me) that, even under the most rigorous scientific inquiry I could bring, they had evidence to support a generalized biophysical theory.

Purely in that Peatian context, starch is glucose, and you need fructose as a redox balancer, even against glucose, to help with uncoupling that generates CO2, your ultimate goal.

But context always matters, and so I'm not saying you are wrong about starch, at all. For example, starch balanced with fructose may be ok, especially for some, relatively healthy people? I eat starch all the time, if a social circumstance calls for it. But I seem to have a robust metabolism, (high libido, slightly hyperthyroid), and I eat tons of fructose at the same time.

For someone else who starts out with low libido and hypothyroid, or especially with an overworked liver, fructose is a preferred fuel to get better faster, and get or stay thin, while having a little glucose mixed in, as in honey.

 

[Filip1993]

I'm just saying, in terms of weight gain, it doesn't really matter what kind of carbohydrate you are eating. We can't really synthesize fat out of carbohydrates, at least not in significant amounts. Before I got into health I ate very high carb and pretty low fat. I ate mostly bread, pasta, rice with small amounts of candy and fruit and I was ripped. That's my experience FWIW.

 

[visionofstrength]

I'm just saying, in terms of weight gain, it doesn't really matter what kind of carbohydrate you are eating. We can't really synthesize fat out of carbohydrates, at least not in significant amounts. Before I got into health I ate very high carb and pretty low fat. I ate mostly bread, pasta, rice with small amounts of candy and fruit and I was ripped. That's my experience FWIW.

Right, me too. But our experience is unique to our context, based on a hundred other things each of us is doing. I mean, I'm just stating what might be obvious here, but you and I would (obviously) have no basis to refute Peat's biophysics of fructose as a redox balancer based on the fact that anecdotally we ate starch and didn't get fat. There may be plenty of people who eat just a little starch and get very fat. But they probably eat a lot of fat (as you suggest).

I mean, if you're saying that no fat is good, then, yes, you can't go wrong with no unsaturated fat. But that's hard for most to do, since small amounts of unsaturated fat is in so much of what everyone eats.

 

[Filip1993]

I agree. Cheers.