LOW-FAT FAT RECIPES for CANCER & More

[Rinse & rePeat]

Hi, thanks, I know about low fat and have been keeping is below 15% of calories but I thought high protein or about 100 grams was good for reducing cancer. Where did you hear about that? Do you know what percentage is considered low protein?

This study is saying high protein is a preventative for those over 66 years old. But nothing about treatment. Where did you find your information about low protein being a helpful treatment?Low Protein Intake is Associated with a Major Reduction in IGF-1, Cancer, and Overall Mortality in the 65 and Younger but Not Older Population

I posted my e-mail from Ray Peat about it above and at the beginning of this thread, and now I reposted it below…

Rinse & rePeat:

“Do you think 40 to 50 grams of protein is too much protein having cancer? Is gelatin, nonfat milk and potato good sources of protein to eat with cancer?”

RAY PEAT:
“If the protein is limited to those, and your other calories are from carbohydrates (not fats), that amound should be safe.”

 

[movebetter]

I posted my e-mail from Ray Peat about it above and at the beginning of this thread, and now I reposted it below…

Rinse & rePeat:

“Do you think 40 to 50 grams of protein is too much protein having cancer? Is gelatin, nonfat milk and potato good sources of protein to eat with cancer?”

RAY PEAT:
“If the protein is limited to those, and your other calories are from carbohydrates (not fats), that amound should be safe.”

ok, i have been trying to keep it between 70 and 100. 40 to 50 should be easy. Thanks for the info!

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

ok, i have been trying to keep it between 70 and 100. 40 to 50 should be easy. Thanks for the info!

Sure thing!

 

[movebetter]

Sure thing!

Have you any knowledge or experience with high dose thiamine. I see Georgi saying it is beneficial as a cancer treatment in high doses but lower doses promote it growth. And mostly lurking has a lot of good things to say.
.

 

[Peater]

Have you any knowledge or experience with high dose thiamine. I see Georgi saying it is beneficial as a cancer treatment in high doses but lower doses promote it growth. And mostly lurking has a lot of good things to say.
.

Haidut was hoping to do some studies on simple B1 and B3 as they turned out to be incredibly effective combined IIRC. I can't remember where I heard that but I found this.

Vitamin B3 counteracts (cancer) cachexia, by restoring NAD+ levels – To Extract Knowledge from Matter

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Have you any knowledge or experience with high dose thiamine. I see Georgi saying it is beneficial as a cancer treatment in high doses but lower doses promote it growth. And mostly lurking has a lot of good things to say.
.

I don’t have any experience with thiamine.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

ok, i have been trying to keep it between 70 and 100. 40 to 50 should be easy. Thanks for the info!

Here is another e-mail exchange I thought you would find helpful @movebetter …

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Serotonin (5-HT) can cause gastro-intestinal (GI) polyps, precursors to GI cancers

The bad news for the "happy hormone" keep streaming into the public consciousness, despite the gargantuan effort to censor such information and double-down on serotonin (just like estrogen) as the best thing our bodies can get. The study below discovered that the development of polyps anywhere...

raypeatforum.com

 

[movebetter]

Here is another e-mail exchange I thought you would find helpful @movebetter …

View attachment 59691

Thank you for another confirmation. I have been working on getting down to 40 to 50 grams. It not easy. I need to cut my consumption of dairy and eggs in half.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

“Glutathione depletion has been demonstrated to increase vulnerability of virtually all known cancer types to chemotherapy and radiation. Given that cancer cells rely primarily on glutathione (high GSH/GSSG ratio) to protect themselves from apoptosis and maintain a growth-promoting environment, the effects of glutathione depletion on mature cancer cells are quite expected. And now this new study demonstrated that blocking cystine uptake leads to quick death (ferroptosis) of cancer stem cells. The mechanism of action is again (reduced) glutathione depletion and increased vulnerability of cancer stem cells to ROS. While the study used various small molecules with toxic side effects, a number of other studies have shown that simply eating sucrose or administering aspirin also has a powerful effect on lowering GSH/GSSG and thus may potentially block the very "seed" of cancer.”


“"...Cancer stem cells are an intriguing target for researchers because of their potential to re-seed tumors. When doctors remove a tumor surgically or target it with chemotherapy drugs or radiation therapy, the cancer may appear to be gone. However, evidence suggests that a tiny subpopulation of adaptable cancer cells can remain and circulate through the body to seed new metastasis in far-off locations.“

Blocking Cystine, And Thus Glutathione (GSH) Synthesis, Kills Cancer Stem Cells

Yet another study that adds to the evidence that cancer is a metabolic disease, driven by excessive reductive stress. I posted a few other threads on the role of glutathione precursors in cancer, and specifically on the role of cysteine in melanoma. In the body, cysteine gets converted into...

raypeatforum.com

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

“In other words, cancer is a metabolic disease! Second, it calls diet a drug! Hippocrates would be proud we finally found some common sense inside us. Third, it mentions specific dietary interventions that can likely treat cancer. Methionine restriction, asparagine restriction, glycine therapy, the importance of histamine in promoting cancer, the possibility that B12 is dangerous in excess, etc are all aspects that Peat has mentioned in his articles and we have posted on this blog. The article even coined a term for such an approach to treating cancer - metabolic therapy. So, it seems the powers that be are finally starting to listen to the "madness" we have been discussing for years. As such, now when you go to your doctor and tell him/her that "diet is a drug" you have some ground to stand on instead of being labelled a lunatic.”

Cancer Is A Metabolic Disease, Diet Is Its Drug

This is perhaps the most stunning article to date I have seen in mainstream media (MSM). For more than 100 years the story has always been that cancer is a genetic disease due to mutations that turn cells into rampant killing machines. Now, one of the bastions of MSM - the mighty "Atlantic" -...

raypeatforum.com

 

[movebetter]

Here is another e-mail exchange I thought you would find helpful @movebetter …

View attachment 59691

Hi, I just came across this study and it sounds like low protein is helpful for those under the age of 65 but those over 65 it can be detrimental. I wish Ray was still here so I could ask him what he thinks. What do you think?

Low Protein Intake is Associated with a Major Reduction in IGF-1, Cancer, and Overall Mortality in the 65 and Younger but Not Older Population

Mice and humans with Growth Hormone Receptor/IGF-1 deficiencies display major reductions in age-related diseases. Because protein restriction reduces GHR-IGF-1 activity, we examined links between protein intake and mortality. Respondents (n=6,381) aged ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Low Protein Intake is Associated with a Major Reduction in IGF-1, Cancer, and Overall Mortality in the 65 and Younger but Not Older Population​

Nevertheless, we found an age interaction for the association between protein consumption and mortality, with subjects ages 50–65 years, but also ages 45–65, potentially experiencing benefits from low protein intake and subjects ages 66+ reporting a low protein diet experiencing detriments—at least for overall mortality and cancer.

Based on the observed opposite effects of a low protein diet in subjects 50–65 year old versus those 65 and older and on the major drop in BMI and IGF-1 levels after age 65, we hypothesized that older subjects on a low protein diet may become malnourished and unable to absorb or process a sufficient level of amino acids. To test this possibility in mice, we fed young mice (18-week-old) and old mice (24-month-old) with isocaloric diets containing either 18% or 4% animal protein. A very low protein diet was purposely selected to reveal any sensitivity to protein restriction in an old organism. Whereas old mice maintained on a high protein diet for 30 days gained weight, old but not young mice on a low protein diet lost 10% of their weight by day 15 (Fig. 4A,B) in agreement with the effect of aging on turning the beneficial effects of protein restriction on mortality into negative effects.

Although protein intake is associated with increased mortality for adults who were middle-aged at baseline, there was also evidence that a low protein diet may be hazardous for older adults. Both high and moderate protein intake in the elderly were associated with major improvements compared to the low protein group, suggesting that protein intake representing at least 10% of the calories consumed may be necessary after age 65 or possibly 75 to reduce age-dependent weight loss and prevent an excessive loss of IGF-1 and of other important factors. In fact, previous studies have noted that an increased protein intake and the resulting increase in IGF-1 may prove beneficial in older adults (Heaney et al., 1999) and the dramatic switch from the protective to the detrimental effect of the low protein diet coincides with a time at which weight begins to decline.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Hi, I just came across this study and it sounds like low protein is helpful for those under the age of 65 but those over 65 it can be detrimental. I wish Ray was still here so I could ask him what he thinks. What do you think?

Low Protein Intake is Associated with a Major Reduction in IGF-1, Cancer, and Overall Mortality in the 65 and Younger but Not Older Population

Mice and humans with Growth Hormone Receptor/IGF-1 deficiencies display major reductions in age-related diseases. Because protein restriction reduces GHR-IGF-1 activity, we examined links between protein intake and mortality. Respondents (n=6,381) aged ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Low Protein Intake is Associated with a Major Reduction in IGF-1, Cancer, and Overall Mortality in the 65 and Younger but Not Older Population​

Nevertheless, we found an age interaction for the association between protein consumption and mortality, with subjects ages 50–65 years, but also ages 45–65, potentially experiencing benefits from low protein intake and subjects ages 66+ reporting a low protein diet experiencing detriments—at least for overall mortality and cancer.

Based on the observed opposite effects of a low protein diet in subjects 50–65 year old versus those 65 and older and on the major drop in BMI and IGF-1 levels after age 65, we hypothesized that older subjects on a low protein diet may become malnourished and unable to absorb or process a sufficient level of amino acids. To test this possibility in mice, we fed young mice (18-week-old) and old mice (24-month-old) with isocaloric diets containing either 18% or 4% animal protein. A very low protein diet was purposely selected to reveal any sensitivity to protein restriction in an old organism. Whereas old mice maintained on a high protein diet for 30 days gained weight, old but not young mice on a low protein diet lost 10% of their weight by day 15 (Fig. 4A,B) in agreement with the effect of aging on turning the beneficial effects of protein restriction on mortality into negative effects.

Although protein intake is associated with increased mortality for adults who were middle-aged at baseline, there was also evidence that a low protein diet may be hazardous for older adults. Both high and moderate protein intake in the elderly were associated with major improvements compared to the low protein group, suggesting that protein intake representing at least 10% of the calories consumed may be necessary after age 65 or possibly 75 to reduce age-dependent weight loss and prevent an excessive loss of IGF-1 and of other important factors. In fact, previous studies have noted that an increased protein intake and the resulting increase in IGF-1 may prove beneficial in older adults (Heaney et al., 1999) and the dramatic switch from the protective to the detrimental effect of the low protein diet coincides with a time at which weight begins to decline.

I would tend towards Ray Peat’s recommendation simply because he has gone against the grain all these years and has been proven to be right time and time again, so why think he is wrong now? Cancer is cancer and I don’t think it’s needs change according to age. I don’t think protein is the end all either in an emergency situation, but nutrition is. If it were me I would be focusing on the vitamins rather than the getting enough protein. Carbs like sprouted grains, fruits like berries soaked in water, citrus peels, well cooked vegetables, like garlic, onions, broccoli and artichokes , low-fat proteins, like shellfish, bone broths and skim milk and add-ins like egg yolks and occasional Manuka honey, and drink fluoride free water. Are you heavy or thin? What is your blood type?

 

[movebetter]

I would tend towards Ray Peat’s recommendation simply because he has gone against the grain all these years and has been proven to be right time and time again, so why think he is wrong now? Cancer is cancer and I don’t think it’s needs change according to age. I don’t think protein is the end all either in an emergency situation, but nutrition is. If it were me I would be focusing on the vitamins rather than the getting enough protein. Carbs like sprouted grains, fruits like berries soaked in water, citrus peels, well cooked vegetables, like garlic, onions, broccoli and artichokes , low-fat proteins, like shellfish, bone broths and skim milk and add-ins like egg yolks and occasional Manuka honey, and drink fluoride free water. Are you heavy or thin? What is your blood type?

Yes, I agree, Ray has gone against many things and been proven right. And this paper mostly agrees with him except for the elderly. I don't know how he would respond to that. I know he greatly lowered his protein before dying and I wonder if that was a contributing factor to his death. I imagine he would agree with Ben Franklin and Einstein that mistakes are an integral part of learning.
I didn't fail the test. I just found 100 ways to do it wrong.
- Benjamin Franklin

Mistakes lead to wisdom, wisdom leads to success .We have been brainwashed by our society into thinking that mistakes should be avoided in favor of getting the “right answer.” However, the exact opposite is true. If you want to be anything other than average. then you should DESIRE to make mistakes, for this is the only way that you will learn.

If you can say that you have not made a mistake in a given situation, then you are not trying anything new, not attempting to push yourself to become better.
Einstein
I am thin, at 77 years old. 6 ft 145lbs

Thanks for the diet suggestions. Why soak berries? And where do you get your manuka honey

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Yes, I agree, Ray has gone against many things and been proven right. And this paper mostly agrees with him except for the elderly. I don't know how he would respond to that. I know he greatly lowered his protein before dying and I wonder if that was a contributing factor to his death. I imagine he would agree with Ben Franklin and Einstein that mistakes are an integral part of learning.
I didn't fail the test. I just found 100 ways to do it wrong.
- Benjamin Franklin

Mistakes lead to wisdom, wisdom leads to success .We have been brainwashed by our society into thinking that mistakes should be avoided in favor of getting the “right answer.” However, the exact opposite is true. If you want to be anything other than average. then you should DESIRE to make mistakes, for this is the only way that you will learn.

If you can say that you have not made a mistake in a given situation, then you are not trying anything new, not attempting to push yourself to become better.
Einstein
I am thin, at 77 years old. 6 ft 145lbs

Thanks for the diet suggestions. Why soak berries? And where do you get your manuka honey

I get any high numbered UMF numbered Manuka honey at my local health food store or online store Vitacost.com

I think it was the constant smoke Ray Peat was breathing that contributed to his death, as I did not hear anything about cancer. My point to you was that what cancer feeds on doesn’t change, whether it be in an old or young body. How could it? So I don’t understand the point of the article.

I soak the berries for a couple of days to extract it’s nutrients, and avoid ingesting the skin, PUFA laden seeds and fiber. It is a great way to hydrate!

 

[movebetter]

I would tend towards Ray Peat’s recommendation simply because he has gone against the grain all these years and has been proven to be right time and time again, so why think he is wrong now? Cancer is cancer and I don’t think it’s needs change according to age. I don’t think protein is the end all either in an emergency situation, but nutrition is. If it were me I would be focusing on the vitamins rather than the getting enough protein. Carbs like sprouted grains, fruits like berries soaked in water, citrus peels, well cooked vegetables, like garlic, onions, broccoli and artichokes , low-fat proteins, like shellfish, bone broths and skim milk and add-ins like egg yolks and occasional Manuka honey, and drink fluoride free water. Are you heavy or thin? What is your blood type?

Well this paper very much confirms his position except for elderly. That's why I wonder what he would say about it. He never qualified his recommendation so that could mean he doesn't think there is any age qualification but I still wonder. And then there is the fact that he decided to lower his protein before he passed away. I wonder if that could have been a mistake. The greatest creative people make the most mistakes. For example Einstein or Ben Franklin.

I get any high numbered UMF numbered Manuka honey at my local health food store or online store Vitacost.com

I think it was the constant smoke Ray Peat was breathing that contributed to his death, as I did not hear anything about cancer. My point to you was that what cancer feeds on doesn’t change, whether it be in an old or young body. How could it? So I don’t understand the point of the article.

I soak the berries for a couple of days to extract it’s nutrients, and avoid ingesting the skin, PUFA laden seeds and fiber. It is a great way to hydrate!

Ok , so you think that there is no reason cancer would t continue to feed on high protein in those 65 and older. That makes sense.


I do see their rational in the paper where they say:

"on the observed opposite effects of a low protein diet in subjects 50–65 year old versus those 65 and older and on the major drop in BMI and IGF-1 levels after age 65, we hypothesized that older subjects on a low protein diet may become malnourished and unable to absorb or process a sufficient level of amino acids. To test this possibility in mice, we fed young mice (18-week-old) and old mice (24-month-old) with isocaloric diets containing either 18% or 4% animal protein. A very low protein diet was purposely selected to reveal any sensitivity to protein restriction in an old organism. Whereas old mice maintained on a high protein diet for 30 days gained weight, old but not young mice on a low protein diet lost 10% of their weight by day 15 (Fig. 4A,B) in agreement with the effect of aging on turning the beneficial effects of protein restriction on mortality into negative effects.

I don't know if this is a logical hypothesis. I wonder if @haidut would weigh in on this.

 

[movebetter]

“In other words, cancer is a metabolic disease! Second, it calls diet a drug! Hippocrates would be proud we finally found some common sense inside us. Third, it mentions specific dietary interventions that can likely treat cancer. Methionine restriction, asparagine restriction, glycine therapy, the importance of histamine in promoting cancer, the possibility that B12 is dangerous in excess, etc are all aspects that Peat has mentioned in his articles and we have posted on this blog. The article even coined a term for such an approach to treating cancer - metabolic therapy. So, it seems the powers that be are finally starting to listen to the "madness" we have been discussing for years. As such, now when you go to your doctor and tell him/her that "diet is a drug" you have some ground to stand on instead of being labelled a lunatic.”

Cancer Is A Metabolic Disease, Diet Is Its Drug

This is perhaps the most stunning article to date I have seen in mainstream media (MSM). For more than 100 years the story has always been that cancer is a genetic disease due to mutations that turn cells into rampant killing machines. Now, one of the bastions of MSM - the mighty "Atlantic" -...

raypeatforum.com

Hi, thanks for posting this. I see they say: (see below) do you agree? Maybe eggs are better restricted.

The most interest has gone to methionine, which is found in high levels in eggs and red meat. In 2018, a review of existing evidence from the Rutgers Cancer Institute of New Jersey deemed restricting methionine “a promising anti-tumor strategy.” That promise has also shown itself in brain tumors and melanomas.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Well this paper very much confirms his position except for elderly. That's why I wonder what he would say about it. He never qualified his recommendation so that could mean he doesn't think there is any age qualification but I still wonder. And then there is the fact that he decided to lower his protein before he passed away. I wonder if that could have been a mistake. The greatest creative people make the most mistakes. For example Einstein or Ben Franklin.

Ok , so you think that there is no reason cancer would t continue to feed on high protein in those 65 and older. That makes sense.


I do see their rational in the paper where they say:

"on the observed opposite effects of a low protein diet in subjects 50–65 year old versus those 65 and older and on the major drop in BMI and IGF-1 levels after age 65, we hypothesized that older subjects on a low protein diet may become malnourished and unable to absorb or process a sufficient level of amino acids. To test this possibility in mice, we fed young mice (18-week-old) and old mice (24-month-old) with isocaloric diets containing either 18% or 4% animal protein. A very low protein diet was purposely selected to reveal any sensitivity to protein restriction in an old organism. Whereas old mice maintained on a high protein diet for 30 days gained weight, old but not young mice on a low protein diet lost 10% of their weight by day 15 (Fig. 4A,B) in agreement with the effect of aging on turning the beneficial effects of protein restriction on mortality into negative effects.

I don't know if this is a logical hypothesis. I wonder if @haidut would weigh in on this.

What you posted above has more to do with gaining weight and losing weight, and not so much about killing cancer. There are other ways to gain weight besides protein. Also Ray Peat isn’t a big fan of certain amino acids.

Arginine Depletion May Be A Viable Approach For Cancer

Ray is not a big fan of certain amino acids like arginine due to its role as a nitric oxide (NO) precursor. I posted a study several weeks ago showing that supplemental arginine greatly boosted tumor growth while supplemental glycine halted it. This latest study seems to take the arginine...

raypeatforum.com

 

[movebetter]

What you posted above has more to do with gaining weight and losing weight, and not so much about killing cancer. There are other ways to gain weight besides protein. Also Ray Peat isn’t a big fan of certain amino acids.

Arginine Depletion May Be A Viable Approach For Cancer

Ray is not a big fan of certain amino acids like arginine due to its role as a nitric oxide (NO) precursor. I posted a study several weeks ago showing that supplemental arginine greatly boosted tumor growth while supplemental glycine halted it. This latest study seems to take the arginine...

raypeatforum.com

I think they were saying old people lose weight on a low protein diet and that correlates with malnutrition and malnutrition correlates with increased cancer growth. Does that make sense?
The question is, why would the old lose weight and have poor cancer outcomes on a low protein diet when the youngers have the opposite outcome on the same diet?
I think their answer is that the old need more protein because they are unable to process it as well as the youngers and without enough protein they become malnourished. Does that make sense?

Thanks for the arginine link. That looks interesting but again very complicated with many differing opinions. I will study it more but I don't have the brain power to understand it all.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

I think they were saying old people lose weight on a low protein diet and that correlates with malnutrition and malnutrition correlates with increased cancer growth. Does that make sense?

No it doesn’t really make sense to me since starvation in itself kills cancer. What cancer feeds on doesn’t change because the host is older. Malnutrition and tumors are two different issues. Ray Peat has said that if one could go on a zero fat diet for like two weeks it would kill cancer, but that is impossible to do, With that being said, meat and high protein is not necessary to keep a person from malnutrition, look at how fruitarians eat. It seems to be a tricky situation, getting just enough protein to keep the body from dismantling itself, but without any excess for the cancer to feed on. Nutrition from colorful foods I should think would be most important, and keeping B12 low, I have recently read about and posted.