Is Vitamin D Supplementation Even Neccessary

[Arrade]

I heard that Vitamin A interferes with Vitamin D absorption

 

[Braveheart]

I think a summary of these findings would be a blessing to many people.

you are right Charlie!

 

[Arrade]

OK, more good info...So, Help me w this... I get sub tropical 20-30 minutes sun on my naked bod, almost every day...min 4 days a week. That 30 mins should give me approx 10,000 iu... but maybe not, because I am tanned and 74 and my skin no longer converts sun as well...so I wonder?. Meanwhile I average about 4000 iu daily from food and supps. minimum...I see the sun as bonus. The body/skin regulates the amt it needs, right?...so I can't get too much from sun, right? But you can supplement too much. I better stop here...thoughts? Oh, and I make sure to get plenty of A (5/1 ratio) minimum....averaging around 25000 A... comments?...

Vitamin D needs some vitamin A, but not too much | Vitamin D Wiki
It’s my understanding that’s vit A competes with d at the same receptors, and you would want to supplement less than 3000 iu A

 

[yerrag]

you are right Charlie!

If you're working on it bzmazu, I'll stand by. There's a lot of useful information to be gained from this thread. It answers those questions people had about why they get regular sunlight, or take supplementation, and still get low vitamin D status from tests. Really unlocks the mystery involving vitamin D, calcium, and PTH. Threads get very long with both useful and not so useful tidbits, and a summary near the end of the useful stuff would do a lot of good.

 

[Amazoniac]

From post #25:
Role of Magnesium in Vitamin D Activation and Function | The Journal of the American Osteopathic Association

"Vitamin D needs to be converted from its storage or inactive form (25[OH]D) to an active form (1,25[OH]2D) before exerting its biological functions. These various stages of vitamin D conversions are actively dependent on the bioavailability of magnesium.33,34"

"Vitamin D, either D3 (animal source) or D2 (nonanimal source), does not have significant biological activity. Rather, it needs to be processed further in the liver and kidneys to generate the biologically active form 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D (1,25[OH]2D). This activation process occurs in 2 steps: (1) within the liver, cholecalciferol is hydroxylated to 25-hydroxycholecalciferol (25[OH]2D) by the enzyme 25-hydroxylase; and (2) within the kidneys, 25-hydroxycholecalciferol is converted to 1,25(OH)2D by the enzyme 1a hydroxylase.1,2,32,38,61 The enzymatic activity of both hepatic 25-hydroxylase and renal 1a-hydroxylase is a magnesium-dependent process. Vitamin D is transported in blood bound to the carrier proteins, and the major carrier is vitamin D–binding protein. Importantly, the activity of vitamin D–binding protein is also a magnesium-dependent process (Figure 2).62,63"

"Nutrients interact in a coordinated manner in the body; it has been reported that 1,25(OH)2D can stimulate intestinal magnesium absorption.14 The effects of vitamin D supplementation on circulating levels of magnesium were investigated in patients with type 2 diabetes mellitus.31 In 126 adult patients with controlled diabetes (55 men and 71 women; mean [SD] age, 53.6 [10.7] years), a significant increase in serum levels of magnesium was found after they consumed vitamin D3 supplements (2000 IU/d) for 6 months.31 Conversely, magnesium acts as a cofactor for the vitamin D–binding protein. Moreover, as mentioned, the metabolism of vitamin D by hepatic 25-hydroxylation and renal 1a-hydroxylation into the active form of 1,25(OH)2D is a magnesium-dependent process. Magnesium deficiency results in reduced levels of 1,25(OH)2D and impaired parathyroid hormone (PTH) response, and it has been implicated in magnesium-dependent vitamin D–resistant rickets.14,70,71 Magnesium supplementation was shown to markedly reduce the resistance to vitamin D treatment.14,70,71"

"A positive association has been found between dietary magnesium intake and bone mineral density.55,78-81 Although most osteoporosis treatment and prevention research has been centered around increased calcium and vitamin D intake, a study82 has shown that persons who consumed the highest amount of magnesium (420 mg for males and 320 mg for females) had higher bone density and lower risk of osteoporosis (Figure 3). In a study conducted on a small number of osteoporotic postmenopausal women, biochemical features of suppressed bone turnover were seen in women who consumed oral magnesium citrate for 30 days.82 Compared with baseline, serum osteocalcin levels decreased by 5% in the women who did not receive magnesium supplements (control), and serum osteocalcin levels increased by approximately 44% in women who received oral magnesium supplements. Urine deoxypyridinoline levels decreased by about 41% in the magnesium-supplemented group and by 5% in the control group (without supplements). Serum PTH levels decreased by 32% in the magnesium-supplemented group compared with 4% in the control group.82"

"Magnesium has been found to be a contributing factor in patients with established osteoporosis with vitamin D deficiency and blunted PTH level.88 Studies have suggested that magnesium could influence PTH synthesis and determine the number of vitamin D receptors; therefore, a deficiency in magnesium levels may lead to diminished synthesis and secretion of PTH and a reduced number of available vitamin D receptors in the target cells.42 One study53 claimed that a significant increase in serum 25(OH)D was achieved only when vitamin D supplementation was given with magnesium; another study89 concurred, finding no increase in serum 25(OH)D level either with vitamin D or magnesium supplementation alone."​

This might be useful:
Vitamin D Really Toxic? (9 mg/d of folate? : idi)

 

[Braveheart]

If you're working on it bzmazu, I'll stand by. There's a lot of useful information to be gained from this thread. It answers those questions people had about why they get regular sunlight, or take supplementation, and still get low vitamin D status from tests. Really unlocks the mystery involving vitamin D, calcium, and PTH. Threads get very long with both useful and not so useful tidbits, and a summary near the end of the useful stuff would do a lot of good.

I've spent a ton of time studying D, but there were still questions pertaining to my situation...and no testing. I'm pretty satisfied w my regimen but this very good thread has helped me put some doubts to rest...putting something together would be a monumental task...we have to do our own research to find the answers we are looking for. I permanently highlite plus copy every "useful tidbit" and then review is easier.

 

[SOMO]

I heard that Vitamin A interferes with Vitamin D absorption

And vice versa.
Actually it would be more accurate to say A and D keep each other in check (to avoid HYPERcalcemia, which causes kidney failure. Both A and D are intimately involved in calcium metabolism, as well as K.

A/D/K supplemented alone without the other 2 can cause hypercalcemia. (Happened to me, from high-dose Vitamin D).

 

[Braveheart]

The Big Vitamin D Mistake. - PubMed - NCBI

The "ideal" daily vitamin A intake. - PubMed - NCBI

Dr Hoffer took 30,000 A and 6000 D daily long before these studies...believe Paulings' intake was similar...their age, no doubt a factor?

After all my research, I believe in 2-4000 D for maint and 4-10,000 for illness...the ratio of A to D would be 5/1.

 

[Obi-wan]

@Amazoniac said "Rather, it needs to be processed further in the liver and kidneys to generate the biologically active form 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D (1,25[OH]2D)" which Wikipedia states also. So if the liver and/or kidneys are not working properly no conversion will take place no matter how much sun you get or how much you supplement. Do I hear B Vitamins to the rescue, especially people with impaired digestive systems. If the digestive system is impaired then maybe natural antibiotics can do the trick. Now we are talking about context. And as Amazoniac stated nothing works without magnesium which is Caroyln Deans favorite subject. But if digestion is impaired then oral magnesium might not work so you would go the transdermal route. But there is PUFA in many transdermal products and as @Travis has stated many times transdermal PUFA is just as bad as oral PUFA. Also @haidut has stated many transdermal products are not well absorbed. I personally like Cocoa butter transdermal (high in Magnesium) and Magnoil. How do I know it works? I get forearm and feet cramps if I don't take them. I get the cramps from taking high progesterone (100mg) due to my advanced prostate cancer. I apply the progesterone to my neck when it gets stiff. It makes it loose quickly. Now putting Vit K on my neck as well as my hips. As for Vit D I will get it from the sun for now...my digestive system, liver and kidneys seem to be working properly. Matter of fact I had to stop taking Energin because I would get a slight stomach ach afterwards. This started when I started doing oil of oregano sublingual and cinnamon in my coffee ( I believe their is a fungal component to all cancers and my PSA dropped further when I started using them) so my digestive system is probably making plenty of B Vit. on it's own. -all personal experience.

 

[Amazoniac]

@Amazoniac said "Rather, it needs to be processed further in the liver and kidneys to generate the biologically active form 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D (1,25[OH]2D)" which Wikipedia states also. So if the liver and/or kidneys are not working properly no conversion will take place no matter how much sun you get or how much you supplement. Do I hear B Vitamins to the rescue, especially people with impaired digestive systems. If the digestive system is impaired then maybe natural antibiotics can do the trick. Now we are talking about context. And as Amazoniac stated nothing works without magnesium which is Caroyln Deans favorite subject. But if digestion is impaired then oral magnesium might not work so you would go the transdermal route. But there is PUFA in many transdermal products and as @Travis has stated many times transdermal PUFA is just as bad as oral PUFA. Also @haidut has stated many transdermal products are not well absorbed. I personally like Cocoa butter transdermal (high in Magnesium) and Magnoil. How do I know it works? I get forearm and feet cramps if I don't take them. I get the cramps from taking high progesterone (100mg) due to my advanced prostate cancer. I apply the progesterone to my neck when it gets stiff. It makes it loose quickly. Now putting Vit K on my neck as well as my hips. As for Vit D I will get it from the sun for now...

On Zeus' Calcirol thread there is a passage from a book in which they stated that even people with advanced liver problems don't lose their ability to metabolize vit D. With the kidneys the main problem is calcification, which can be prevented by not doing extreme experiments with vit D without the testings.

 

[Obi-wan]

On Zeus' Calcirol thread there is a passage from a book in which they stated that even people with advanced liver problems don't lose their ability to metabolize vit D. With the kidneys the main problem is calcification, which can be prevented by not doing extreme experiments with vit D without the testings.

Extreme experiments with Vit D supplements will cause calcium build up in soft tissues per Wikipedia. The sun will not

 

[Amazoniac]

Extreme experiments with Vit D supplements will cause calcium build up in soft tissues per Wikipedia. The sun will not

"The lifeguards had 20-fold the risk of kidney stones compared to the general population in northern Israel. In southern Israel, the risk was only elevated 12-fold, but this is because the general population in southern Israel had twice the risk of kidney stones as the general population of northern Israel, consistent with observational studies cited in the paper showing that the closer you get to the equator, the more the risk of kidney stones increases, likely because calcification of the kidneys is the most sensitive sign of vitamin D toxicity (15)."

"These lifeguards did not have elevated levels of calcium in their blood, but they did have elevated levels of calcium in their urine, which the authors attributed to excess 25(OH)D; insufficient urinary output, which the authors attributed to dehydration; and elevated levels of uric acid in their blood, which the authors suggested resulted from “solar damage to the skin.” All three of these could be attributed to too much sun exposure, and the authors suggested that they “probably all contribute to the susceptibility of lifeguards to form kidney stones.”

These data seem to flatly contradict both the idea that vitamin D is only toxic at doses that cause hypercalcemia (contradicted also by animal experiments, including 15) and the idea that you can’t get too much vitamin D from the sun."

It's possible but you have to be committed.

 

[Obi-wan]

It's possible but you have to be committed.

But in the lifeguards case they were getting rid of the excess calcium and the body was not storing it... "probably" and "suggested", not very scientific...magnesium will direct it back to the bones...

 

[Arrade]

And vice versa.
Actually it would be more accurate to say A and D keep each other in check (to avoid HYPERcalcemia, which causes kidney failure. Both A and D are intimately involved in calcium metabolism, as well as K.

A/D/K supplemented alone without the other 2 can cause hypercalcemia. (Happened to me, from high-dose Vitamin D).

Ah ok, thanks for responding. I guess I’m just confused about the ratio. 5:1 A to D seems crazy, I heard that’s Weston’s Prices recommendation but Ray says 10,000 a day or 5,000 or less if your hypo.
Really my goal is to reverse arterial calcification. It makes sense to have more A than D, not sure why i was recommmended Vit D but I do use K and magensium ED

 

[fradon]

tuna, potatoes, tomatoes, and mushrooms would have some vitamin D and also pasture raised pork lard.

 

[Arrade]

Ah ok, thanks for responding. I guess I’m just confused about the ratio. 5:1 A to D seems crazy, I heard that’s Weston’s Prices recommendation but Ray says 10,000 a day or 5,000 or less if your hypo.

And vice versa.
Actually it would be more accurate to say A and D keep each other in check (to avoid HYPERcalcemia, which causes kidney failure. Both A and D are intimately involved in calcium metabolism, as well as K.

A/D/K supplemented alone without the other 2 can cause hypercalcemia. (Happened to me, from high-dose Vitamin D).

You know, I've been supplementing high vitamin mk4 and my hairloss has gotten much worse. I agree, I don't think you can separate them

 

[slovak_peat]

Just wanted everyone to know @slovak_peat let me know his fathers PSA went from 79 down to 9.7 in 2 months. He is on Lupron but has also followed all the recommendations that @Travis has given!Travis now has super Guru status! He is a supreme lord!

Many thanks @Obi-wan , @Travis , @haidut , @SQu .

 

[Braveheart]

can someone guide me to Travis's prostate recommendations/research?

 

[Obi-wan]

can someone guide me to Travis's prostate recommendations/research?

Its in my various posts. When I get time I will put a summary together

 

[Braveheart]

Its in my various posts. When I get time I will put a summary together

You know, I am very interested in what you do...we have similar situations...you have been very helpful...particularly this recent thread, thank you.