Is pasta actually superior to bread? What about phyllo dough and raisin bran?

[akgrrrl]

N

This, I’m assuming…

Our Daily Bread

Not all bread is created equally! Learn about traditional bread preparation.

www.westonaprice.org

Interesting process. Basically a sourdough starter… extended. Not a full fermentation, as you’re feeding daily, but building stronger nearer to the end. Says it bakes to be quite dense, as it would have to because it is such a weak dough.

Seems this slow, weak process emphasizes other processes over and even delays those of the modern bread technique… which is apparently exactly what’s needed to not have the same negative consequences, celiac-affected or not.

Thanks for the info. As you said, a bit too involved for me haha

Now you know there are so many differences and variations! In how each material comes to conclusion for a bake. While I have the same sourdough starter now 25years given me by an old homesteader she had it for 20years, I feed it daily for a bake but blend it with an organic Montana red winter wheat berry that is allowed to defoliate with the first frost instead of airplane dusting with Monsanto glysophate. The combination is highly digestible and tasty, but yes tedious prep until you have done it a few times. A tsp of yeast added to a proofing sourdough can elevate the alt grain flour to perfection as long as the sourdough is not overhandled and the activating soda is added at the last rise. If a low gluten flour like Einkorn is used, I often add powdered gluten or "dough enhancer" to supply that chemistry.

 

[Dr. B]

no, that the glycemix index is of fruit lower is not why it lowers the glycemic response of another high glycemic food. I dunno how exactly but the fructose has somekind of 'catalytic effect'

the glycemix index is bull. it indicates nothing about how well your cells take up sugar.

-edit-

That is how the glycemix index works. Many people literally say glycemix index doesnt matter because for example rice is usually eaten with meat and fats or other proteins, so the glycemic index lowers.

Fruit having a lower glycemic index is all that’s needed for it to lower the higher glycemic index of something eaten with it. This is a general rule and why some say the glycemic index of potato, pasta or bread isn’t a concern if combined with other lower GI foods. Actually even Peat advised doing fats with starchy foods but it wasnt GI reasons it was about endotoxin and digestion. Glycemix index is related in part to how quickly something digests, and if it has carbs, so fibers and fats and proteins seem to always help lower glycemix index. I think whey protein actually scores high on it despite being protein. Because it digests so quick.

But it’s possible sugar/fructose has some special properties or reasons for lowering glycemix index since it is very fast digesting yet also low on the index.

Its maybe related to fructose helping oxidize glucose? So even though its sugar, the fructose helps bring down the glycemic index

With Glycemic index i think it can be useful to understand why something scores a certain way on it, why it scores high or low. For example if something scotes low because its full of fiber or very tough to digest, that means its not really a good thing even though its score is low. If something scores low on it yet also digests very quick then that’s something notable, like with sugar and frut juice.

Pasta in some circles is sold as being superior to bread because of the lower glycemix index. But the lower score seems to be because its much harder to break down so im not sure that’s desirable. I dont think my gluten tolerance is the best but it seems i can tolerate regular bread better than pasta, at least with digestion speeds.

 

[PeskyPeater]

That is how the glycemix index works. Many people literally say glycemix index doesnt matter because for example rice is usually eaten with meat and fats or other proteins, so the glycemic index lowers.

Fruit having a lower glycemic index is all that’s needed for it to lower the higher glycemic index of something eaten with it. This is a general rule and why some say the glycemic index of potato, pasta or bread isn’t a concern if combined with other lower GI foods. Actually even Peat advised doing fats with starchy foods but it wasnt GI reasons it was about endotoxin and digestion. Glycemix index is related in part to how quickly something digests, and if it has carbs, so fibers and fats and proteins seem to always help lower glycemix index. I think whey protein actually scores high on it despite being protein. Because it digests so quick.

But it’s possible sugar/fructose has some special properties or reasons for lowering glycemix index since it is very fast digesting yet also low on the index.

Its maybe related to fructose helping oxidize glucose? So even though its sugar, the fructose helps bring down the glycemic index

With Glycemic index i think it can be useful to understand why something scores a certain way on it, why it scores high or low. For example if something scotes low because its full of fiber or very tough to digest, that means its not really a good thing even though its score is low. If something scores low on it yet also digests very quick then that’s something notable, like with sugar and frut juice.

Pasta in some circles is sold as being superior to bread because of the lower glycemix index. But the lower score seems to be because its much harder to break down so im not sure that’s desirable. I dont think my gluten tolerance is the best but it seems i can tolerate regular bread better than pasta, at least with digestion speeds.

sorry I couldnt care less about the silly glycemic index , its an isolated measuremnt of glucose blood spike of a food on its own, it is not real world situation. for it does not measure the actual sugar utilisation in the cel. neither accounts for randle effect, so its absolutely silly concept

I mean from the reasoning you mentioned earlier would follow that eating a high GI starch plus a low GI starch would lower both GI.
That's silly yes indeed fructose addition to the glucose or starch source is magic. So I quoted this piece

the most probable mechanism for the
decreased glycaemic response may be fructose-
induced stimulation of hepatic glucose uptake. It
has been established that in hepatocytes, fructose is
rapidly phosphorylated to fructose-1-phosphate,
which competes with fructose-6-phosphate for bind-
ing on a glucokinase regulatory protein (GKRP).
As a result of this competition, glucokinase is
released from GKRP and the liberated glucokinase
diffuses to the cytosol. The glucokinase transloca-
tion stimulates the hepatic glucose uptake by
converting glucose to glycogen, and phosphoryla-
tion of glucose by glucokinase, which is a rate-
determining step for hepatic glucose metabolism.


Thus, the primary difference between hepatic fruc-
tose and glucose metabolism is that fructose mole-
cules by-pass the main rate-controlling step in
glycolysis, 6-phosphofructokinase.

 

[Dr. B]

sorry I couldnt care less about the silly glycemic index , its an isolated measuremnt of glucose blood spike of a food on its own, it is not real world situation. for it does not measure the actual sugar utilisation in the cel. neither accounts for randle effect, so its absolutely silly concept

I mean from the reasoning you mentioned earlier would follow that eating a high GI starch plus a low GI starch would lower both GI.
That's silly yes indeed fructose addition to the glucose or starch source is magic. So I quoted this piece

The higher glycemix index foods are more fattening, arent they? Unless the low GI food causes More inflammation

 

[PeskyPeater]

The higher glycemix index foods are more fattening, arent they? Unless the low GI food causes More inflammation

In the category of carbohydrates, the more fattening carbs are the starches.

out side the categroy of carbs, carbs are not more fattening than fat.

I dont think a higher CI carb is more fattening per sé when you are in oxidative mode

 

[SatoshiPufamoto]

so someone recently posted a study about water-boiled starch granules being literally too large to pass thru the gut lining. That actually led me to start incorporating mashed potatoes this last week, with incredible results for someone who’d shut down after a bite of any starch. Less sat fat used in it, too, and still better results!

That leads me to believe that boiled pasta is indeed a preferable form to bread.

As an aside, I found studies showing 7 day aged sourdoughs having no detectable gluten left and being safe for celiacs disease… so a super combo of pasta made with such fermented dough would be awesome

Al Dente

so someone recently posted a study about water-boiled starch granules being literally too large to pass thru the gut lining. That actually led me to start incorporating mashed potatoes this last week, with incredible results for someone who’d shut down after a bite of any starch. Less sat fat used in it, too, and still better results!

That leads me to believe that boiled pasta is indeed a preferable form to bread.

As an aside, I found studies showing 7 day aged sourdoughs having no detectable gluten left and being safe for celiacs disease… so a super combo of pasta made with such fermented dough would be awesome

What do you think about boiled Pasta til al dente? Should it be more well cooked to aid digestion?

 

[Apple]

What do you think about boiled Pasta til al dente? Should it be more well cooked to aid digestion?

you should try different brands of pasta and cook them for different time-intervals until you find what works for you and in combination with different foods. There are brands of pasta that are just too glutenious and get stuck in stomach for the whole day while other brands digest as quick as rice. Leaving cooked pasta in the fridge until next day makes it less gluish, it is ok reboil it if needed.

 

[Inaut]

I prefer flakey and light doughs - naan, pita, croissants and phyllo. The just taste better and seem easier to digest for me. I don't eat much bread these days.

 

[Apple]

anyway, if you think to get away with "al dente":
How hazardous are raw and undercooked starches?
RP: Can get premature dementia because arterioles get plugged by starch granules. Cook pasta and rice for 40 minutes. Cook rice until it’s gummy.

 

[SatoshiPufamoto]

anyway, if you think to get away with "al dente":
How hazardous are raw and undercooked starches?
RP: Can get premature dementia because arterioles get plugged by starch granules. Cook pasta and rice for 40 minutes. Cook rice until it’s gummy.

So Ray recommended a prolonged boiling of the noodles?

 

[ThazMYchocolate]

anyway, if you think to get away with "al dente":
How hazardous are raw and undercooked starches?
RP: Can get premature dementia because arterioles get plugged by starch granules. Cook pasta and rice for 40 minutes. Cook rice until it’s gummy.

doesn't sound worth eating

 

[Jam]

anyway, if you think to get away with "al dente":
How hazardous are raw and undercooked starches?
RP: Can get premature dementia because arterioles get plugged by starch granules. Cook pasta and rice for 40 minutes. Cook rice until it’s gummy.

With all due respect, that is ridiculous.

 

[Apple]

With all due respect, that is ridiculous.

I only quoted RP . You can find it in this podcast

Dr. Ray Peat - The Real Anthony Fauci; Vaccine Damage; Iodine; Vit. E and More - January 17, 2022 | One Radio Network

Reading RFK Jr.’s book The Real Anthony Fauci. Mainstream is trying to find something factually wrong with it, but they can’t. Biggest shocks of the book: Profit-making motive of government…

oneradionetwork.com

 

[Dr. B]

I prefer flakey and light doughs - naan, pita, croissants and phyllo. The just taste better and seem easier to digest for me. I don't eat much bread these days.

They do digest better, and different burger buns digest better depending on ingredient quality. Also certain doughnuts, the very light ones digest better.
Actually naan really varies, some of these are very thick, heavy, harder to digest

 

[Ainaga]

a baker here to add his grain of sand to the discussion:

if you start out with dough made of wheat flour and water, it could take up to seven days for it to ferment. no one in the world makes bread like this, and i don't believe it's ever in the whole history of mankind been made like this, except in the experimental stage of baking very early on. actual sourdough is made by adding this aforementioned ferment (a small portion) to a larger piece of dough that awaits to be fermented. the sourdough -the piece of dough that has been fermented for seven days, or nine, or twelve- functions as the modern day yeast. it ferments the bulk of the dough. sourdough, in addition to yeast, contains lactic acid bacteria, which is, as far as i understand, what ends up destroying the gluten web. it's the acid. you can ferment dough for seven days, by adding a portion of sourdough to a larger mass of dough, but by day seven you have goop, not dough. you CAN bake this, but you need a container to do so, you can't shape this into a loaf. you can't buy a loaf like this anywhere, but if you are into baking, i recommend you try it, the result is good. anyways, since the gluten has been destroyed by the acid, it won't hold together. it'll look like pancake mix, but exceedingly acidic, and bubbly. so yes, this extreme form of the sourdough process does reduce gluten, but it renders the gluten-building process useless. “real” sourdoughs -the ones our ancestors made and can still be made at home- must be handled in a more gentle way than “regular” doughs because they “break” so easily. the building of the gluten has to be timed over several hours to coincide with the peak of fermentation, BEFORE the acid from fermentation starts to break down the gluten.
aside from this, what is most interesting -to me at least- is that recently a lot of the research dealing with the supposed ubiquitous “gluten sensitivity” has now been redirected to the subject of ati's, amylase-trypsin inhibitors, which are supposed to be, according to the latest research, the real culprits behind wheat sensitivities. this is why some people swear by einkorn flour, because it's the only gluten-containing grain with low ati's. the sourdough process btw also reduces or effectively renders useless those same ati's.

 

[Jam]

a baker here to add his grain of sand to the discussion:

if you start out with dough made of wheat flour and water, it could take up to seven days for it to ferment. no one in the world makes bread like this, and i don't believe it's ever in the whole history of mankind been made like this, except in the experimental stage of baking very early on. actual sourdough is made by adding this aforementioned ferment (a small portion) to a larger piece of dough that awaits to be fermented. the sourdough -the piece of dough that has been fermented for seven days, or nine, or twelve- functions as the modern day yeast. it ferments the bulk of the dough. sourdough, in addition to yeast, contains lactic acid bacteria, which is, as far as i understand, what ends up destroying the gluten web. it's the acid. you can ferment dough for seven days, by adding a portion of sourdough to a larger mass of dough, but by day seven you have goop, not dough. you CAN bake this, but you need a container to do so, you can't shape this into a loaf. you can't buy a loaf like this anywhere, but if you are into baking, i recommend you try it, the result is good. anyways, since the gluten has been destroyed by the acid, it won't hold together. it'll look like pancake mix, but exceedingly acidic, and bubbly. so yes, this extreme form of the sourdough process does reduce gluten, but it renders the gluten-building process useless. “real” sourdoughs -the ones our ancestors made and can still be made at home- must be handled in a more gentle way than “regular” doughs because they “break” so easily. the building of the gluten has to be timed over several hours to coincide with the peak of fermentation, BEFORE the acid from fermentation starts to break down the gluten.
aside from this, what is most interesting -to me at least- is that recently a lot of the research dealing with the supposed ubiquitous “gluten sensitivity” has now been redirected to the subject of ati's, amylase-trypsin inhibitors, which are supposed to be, according to the latest research, the real culprits behind wheat sensitivities. this is why some people swear by einkorn flour, because it's the only gluten-containing grain with low ati's. the sourdough process btw also reduces or effectively renders useless those same ati's.

Excellent post, thank you.

 

[Ainaga]

Excellent post, thank you.

you're welcome jam

 

[ThazMYchocolate]

aside from this, what is most interesting -to me at least- is that recently a lot of the research dealing with the supposed ubiquitous “gluten sensitivity” has now been redirected to the subject of ati's, amylase-trypsin inhibitors, which are supposed to be, according to the latest research, the real culprits behind wheat sensitivities. this is why some people swear by einkorn flour, because it's the only gluten-containing grain with low ati's. the sourdough process btw also reduces or effectively renders useless those same ati's.

To render useless these ati's are you talking about the long sourdough process you mentioned or the normal sourdough process that we all know about?

 

[Ainaga]

To render useless these ati's are you talking about the long sourdough process you mentioned or the normal sourdough process that we all know about?

In the long sourdough process, the degradation of ati's significantly increases, meaning that total ati activity is reduced. That is what this study says:

Sourdough Fermentation Degrades Wheat Alpha-Amylase/Trypsin Inhibitor (ATI) and Reduces Pro-Inflammatory Activity - PubMed

The ingestion of gluten-containing foods can cause wheat-related disorders in up to 15% of wheat consuming populations. Besides the role of gluten, α-amylase/trypsin inhibitors (ATI) have recently been identified as inducers of an innate immune response via toll-like receptor 4 in celiac disease...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Here they are measuring the ph of the starter, not dough fermented with one. The ph of the starter here would be similar to the ph of what we are referring to as the 'long sourdough process'.

The ph of a sourdough loaf made normally -that is, by fermenting dough with a starter- would never reach the ph of the starter itself, but you would guess that there is reduced ati activity likewise; enough perhaps to improve the symptoms of some people, not enough to improve other people's symptoms.

In this randomized controlled trial, we see that the outcome of eating sourdough, as opposed to eating yeast fermented bread, was actually worse.

Pilot Study: Comparison of Sourdough Wheat Bread and Yeast-Fermented Wheat Bread in Individuals with Wheat Sensitivity and Irritable Bowel Syndrome - PubMed

Many patients suspect wheat as being a major trigger of their irritable bowel syndrome (IBS) symptoms. Our aim was to evaluate whether sourdough wheat bread baked without baking improvers and using a long dough fermentation time (>12 h), would result in lower quantities of alpha-amylase/trypsin i …

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Notice that in the first study, other parameters also improved, in addition to the ati status.

I think I mentioned this in passing: if you want to see if ati's are what affect your wheat sensitivity, try baking with all-purpose (soft flour, less gluten) einkorn flour. If you want to take this to the extreme, make a loaf with our so-called “long sourdough process”. essentially, bake an einkorn sourdough starter. you may think that baking starters makes no sense, but remember, 1) you can use a form to bake the goop, and 2) starters can be more or less hydrated. you can make a starter with only 50% hydration, which will bake nicely inside a form. the resulting bread is delicious, i kid you not, albeit acidic. The ph of this loaf is that of a starter.

 

[ThazMYchocolate]

I think I mentioned this in passing: if you want to see if ati's are what affect your wheat sensitivity, try baking with all-purpose (soft flour, less gluten) einkorn flour. If you want to take this to the extreme, make a loaf with our so-called “long sourdough process”. essentially, bake an einkorn sourdough starter. you may think that baking starters makes no sense, but remember, 1) you can use a form to bake the goop, and 2) starters can be more or less hydrated. you can make a starter with only 50% hydration, which will bake nicely inside a form. the resulting bread is delicious, i kid you not, albeit acidic. The ph of this loaf is that of a starter.

Interesting. I think I will try this. I am not used to making a starter but I am familiar with baking with yeast so it's gonna be a learning experience for sure.