Is pasta actually superior to bread? What about phyllo dough and raisin bran?

[Dr. B]

Pasta is considered superior to bread because its much lower on the glycemix index. I think it was as low as fruit juice and honey. And far below white rice, bread and potato.

But i was looking this up and the reason pasta is low on the GI is because the gluten molecules are bonded differently in pasta, so it takes the body much longer to break them down compared to bread. A bowl of pasta definitely takes much longer to digest for me compared to equivalent calories of potato or bread or rice.

Is this actually desirable as far as endotoxin because something that takes longer to digest means it feeds more bacteria? Glycemic index and blood sugar levels are only one part of the equation. Pasta seems to cause a big slowdown in digestion times, even more so than pizza.

What about phyllo dough as used in spanakopita or baklava? I remember that being quicker digesting.

Also what about raisin bran cereal? It is made by kelloggs but it actually is one of the few cereals that is not fortified with any vitamins. One serving has 1.8mg iron which is naturally occurring in the wheat bran. Also raisin bran is mostly wheat bran, which Peat supposedly spoke highly of for it’s insoluble fiber. Is raisin bran all in all a worthwhile cereal to use for its wheat bran and insoluble fiber then? The only negative seems to be that the ingredients aren’t organic.

 

[LiveLaughLove]

so someone recently posted a study about water-boiled starch granules being literally too large to pass thru the gut lining. That actually led me to start incorporating mashed potatoes this last week, with incredible results for someone who’d shut down after a bite of any starch. Less sat fat used in it, too, and still better results!

That leads me to believe that boiled pasta is indeed a preferable form to bread.

As an aside, I found studies showing 7 day aged sourdoughs having no detectable gluten left and being safe for celiacs disease… so a super combo of pasta made with such fermented dough would be awesome

 

[i_nomad]

As an aside, I found studies showing 7 day aged sourdoughs having no detectable gluten left and being safe for celiacs disease… so a super combo of pasta made with such fermented dough would be awesome

Sorry, but this isn’t true. Source: I worked at an artisan bread bakery and baked at home for years.

A fully developed Sourdough starter, if not being used for bread, is reduced in size and fed new flour daily. There’s no “seven days” about it as it is constantly being replaced, even the bacteria (as an aside, that’s why it’s pointless to purchase starters from places like San Francisco, as your local flora will replace it in short order).

If being used that day then a small amount (proportionate to the total flour in the bread) is used for the actual making of the bread. The mix is then kneaded and developed over time… the gluten from the mass amount of new flour is developed. That’s what makes bread bread. Gluten. So once baked there’s plenty of gluten.

The only other way that could be read is sourdough that has been baked is…aged?… for seven days. Which that cannot be the case because sourdough is not a fat-enriched dough and goes stale quite quickly. So unless those Celiacs were knawing their way through tough, dry bread…

 

[miquelangeles]

Sorry, but this isn’t true. Source: I worked at an artisan bread bakery and baked at home for years.

A fully developed Sourdough starter, if not being used for bread, is reduced in size and fed new flour daily. There’s no “seven days” about it as it is constantly being replaced, even the bacteria (as an aside, that’s why it’s pointless to purchase starters from places like San Francisco, as your local flora will replace it in short order).

If being used that day then a small amount (proportionate to the total flour in the bread) is used for the actual making of the bread. The mix is then kneaded and developed over time… the gluten from the mass amount of new flour is developed. That’s what makes bread bread. Gluten. So once baked there’s plenty of gluten.

The only other way that could be read is sourdough that has been baked is…aged?… for seven days. Which that cannot be the case because sourdough is not a fat-enriched dough and goes stale quite quickly. So unless those Celiacs were knawing their way through tough, dry bread…

The only way that could be read is 7 days fermented dough. You let the dough ferment on the counter or in the refrigerator. Some pizza doughs are fermented for 7 days.

 

[i_nomad]

The only way that could be read is 7 days fermented dough. You let the dough ferment on the counter or in the refrigerator. Some pizza doughs are fermented for 7 days.

That could be how it was intended… but it would still be wrong.

Those bread and pizza doughs are retarded in a fridge for those seven days of fermentation. This significantly slows the fermentation process, and continues to develop the gluten for the first bit and breaks it down somewhat for the remaining time. Dough fermented on the counter is a matter of hours, and would be unusable the next day, let alone seven where it would be rotting and likely moldy.

Again… it isn’t dough if there’s no gluten. That’s what binds it all together. The long fermentation in a fridge would break some of the gluten down and make it easier to digest… however, it doesn’t remove gluten.

sourdough fermentation did not reduce overall concentration of immunogenic peptides, but it did change the in vitro digestion profile of certain peptides.

The Effect of Sourdough Fermentation on Immunogenic Gluten Peptides

Sourdough fermentation has shown promise in reducing the concentration of gluten peptides within food. However, researchers don't know much about the effect of partial sourdough fermentation on immunogenic gluten. A team of researchers recently set out to examine the effect of a single sourdough...

www.celiac.com

 

[LiveLaughLove]

@i_nomad @miquelangeles

Yep, it’s fermented dough. Unlike pizza doughs, not refrigerated.

I bought a recipe from a professor couple who contributed to the Weston A Price website back in the day. They researched Russian, French, and German old school sourdoughs. I never made any cuz it was a headache lol. Pulling the dough out once or twice a day to fold a specific number of times, and delicately place back in the bowl to slowly rise again the next day.

Real old school sourdough is pretty cool. Today’s stuff is just regular bread with a slow rise, via starter. I’ve never found actual sourdough in America, artesianal bakeries not withstanding.

Gluten is a protein and functionally, a binder, but it’s not the only food of bacteria. Any carbohydrate (read starch and soluble fiber), is the food that by-produces carbon dioxide and raises bread.

 

[LiveLaughLove]

Again… it isn’t dough if there’s no gluten. That’s what binds it all together. The long fermentation in a fridge would break some of the gluten down and make it easier to digest… however, it doesn’t remove gluten.

Cellulose should function as a binder. If I recall correctly, Sourdough that’s been fermented quite a while, feels sloppier and “weaker,” and the cooking stiffens it up. I believe you don’t even want to compress/fold it after it reaches max fermentability (ideally day 7 according to one recipe), and just put it in the oven like that. That’s where the idea comes from for “no-kneed sourdough,” which is just a superfluous, albeit cool textured, starter bread.

 

[PeskyPeater]

holy macaroni !

I thought we could ingore glycemix index, it's about the expression of enzymes in your gut and thyroid function without having inflammation that makes it digestable or not so digestable.

gluten are still in the pasta just like bread. so that's estrogenic of course. I dont see the super- part in that.

filo dough is same, gluten and som vegetable oil.

whole wheat bran with raisin, eventhough from kellogs, still has soluble fermentable fiber, You want just the wheat bran, insoluble partially fermentable fiber

and btw using fats with the preperation of starch is going to increase formation of resistant starch, feeding the microbes unnecessarily increasing SCFA

-edit-
something that takes longer to digest doesnt mean it makes more endotoxin per sé. But increasing gut motility can prevent other foods from being fermented yes, so thats why you want to use just wheat bran or carrot salad [or cascara]

 

[Sunny Jack]

I'd rather have a bowl of Coco Pops!

 

[i_nomad]

This, I’m assuming…

Our Daily Bread

Not all bread is created equally! Learn about traditional bread preparation.

www.westonaprice.org

Interesting process. Basically a sourdough starter… extended. Not a full fermentation, as you’re feeding daily, but building stronger nearer to the end. Says it bakes to be quite dense, as it would have to because it is such a weak dough.

Seems this slow, weak process emphasizes other processes over and even delays those of the modern bread technique… which is apparently exactly what’s needed to not have the same negative consequences, celiac-affected or not.

Thanks for the info. As you said, a bit too involved for me haha

 

[LiveLaughLove]

This, I’m assuming…

Our Daily Bread

Not all bread is created equally! Learn about traditional bread preparation.

www.westonaprice.org

Interesting process. Basically a sourdough starter… extended. Not a full fermentation, as you’re feeding daily, but building stronger nearer to the end. Says it bakes to be quite dense, as it would have to because it is such a weak dough.

Seems this slow, weak process emphasizes other processes over and even delays those of the modern bread technique… which is apparently exactly what’s needed to not have the same negative consequences, celiac-affected or not.

Thanks for the info. As you said, a bit too involved for me haha

Yeah, a lot. Thanks for the discussion :)

 

[Dr. B]

holy macaroni !

I thought we could ingore glycemix index, it's about the expression of enzymes in your gut and thyroid function without having inflammation that makes it digestable or not so digestable.

gluten are still in the pasta just like bread. so that's estrogenic of course. I dont see the super- part in that.

filo dough is same, gluten and som vegetable oil.

whole wheat bran with raisin, eventhough from kellogs, still has soluble fermentable fiber, You want just the wheat bran, insoluble partially fermentable fiber

and btw using fats with the preperation of starch is going to increase formation of resistant starch, feeding the microbes unnecessarily increasing SCFA

-edit-
something that takes longer to digest doesnt mean it makes more endotoxin per sé. But increasing gut motility can prevent other foods from being fermented yes, so thats why you want to use just wheat bran or carrot salad [or cascara]

Gluten is in itself estrogenic? Where did you see this? I wasnt aware

Phyllo dough doesn’t have to be vegetable oil it depends on the producer.

 

[akgrrrl]

Rice pasta?
Brown rice pasta?
Bean pasta?
Lentil pasta?
Corn pasta?
Buckwheat pasta?
Barley pasta?
Wheat flour pasta? Soaked in RoundUp Glysophate to defoliate and wilt it saving money2harvest? GMO'd for 40 years? Pesticides? Spectracides?
Or, durum wheat semolina grown organic?
Or Einkorn Triticale "wheat" pasta?
SAME FOR BREADS
You cannot compare pasta vs bread with ingredients that have such huge protein-fiber-starch differentials. When you start saying WHICH grain, WHICH milk you drink,WHICH kind of meat and understand the values and qualities of foodstuffs vary enormously, then comparisons are relevant. A lot of Dr. Peat's papers were written before these industries went into hyperdrive on drugs, fatforcing, and inhumane methods of production.

 

[PeskyPeater]

Gluten is in itself estrogenic? Where did you see this? I wasnt aware

Phyllo dough doesn’t have to be vegetable oil it depends on the producer.

It was an interview with Dr Peat on YT raypeatclips I believe where he explains the gluten activate an estrogenic pathway, so not directly.

 

[Dr. B]

It was an interview with Dr Peat on YT raypeatclips I believe where he explains the gluten activate an estrogenic pathway, so not directly.

Do you remember the details? I remember something else, something like estrogen and vitamin d deficiency causing gluten intolerance.

Rice pasta?
Brown rice pasta?
Bean pasta?
Lentil pasta?
Corn pasta?
Buckwheat pasta?
Barley pasta?
Wheat flour pasta? Soaked in RoundUp Glysophate to defoliate and wilt it saving money2harvest? GMO'd for 40 years? Pesticides? Spectracides?
Or, durum wheat semolina grown organic?
Or Einkorn Triticale "wheat" pasta?
SAME FOR BREADS
You cannot compare pasta vs bread with ingredients that have such huge protein-fiber-starch differentials. When you start saying WHICH grain, WHICH milk you drink,WHICH kind of meat and understand the values and qualities of foodstuffs vary enormously, then comparisons are relevant. A lot of Dr. Peat's papers were written before these industries went into hyperdrive on drugs, fatforcing, and inhumane methods of production.

Yes actually i mean, wheat pasta, compared to bread.
But, if something is usda organic it should be pesticide herbicide free right?
Even the usda organic pasta, is harder to digest than non organic bread like on a danish or pizza or burger bun
I think all the pasta i have tried were semolina wheat...
supposedly the gluten in this is different and slower digesting which is why it has a much lower glycemix index score than potato or white bread or white rice.
But is a low glycemic index actually desirable if the reason for the low index score is because of long digestive times?

 

[PeskyPeater]

Do you remember the details? I remember something else, something like estrogen and vitamin d deficiency causing gluten intolerance.

I have to look it up

...

But is a low glycemic index actually desirable if the reason for the low index score is because of long digestive times?

If I may, only if you have diabetes longer digestion times and a lower glycemic response is favorable. studies say eating fruit 1h - 30m before a starchy carb helps to lower glycemic response. So I thinks combining a fruit or its juice with a starch is always prefered above choosing based on digesttion time. Perhaps when someone has SIBO the longer digesting starch may feed the microbes and increase bloating

 

[PeskyPeater]

 

[Dr. B]

I have to look it up

If I may, only if you have diabetes longer digestion times and a lower glycemic response is favorable. studies say eating fruit 1h - 30m before a starchy carb helps to lower glycemic response. So I thinks combining a fruit or its juice with a starch is always prefered above choosing based on digesttion time. Perhaps when someone has SIBO the longer digesting starch may feed the microbes and increase bloating

Yes but fruits have a very low glycemix index that is why they lower it with starches

 

[PeskyPeater]

Yes but fruits have a very low glycemix index that is why they lower it with starches

no, that the glycemix index is of fruit lower is not why it lowers the glycemic response of another high glycemic food. I dunno how exactly but the fructose has somekind of 'catalytic effect'

the glycemix index is bull. it indicates nothing about how well your cells take up sugar.

-edit-

The glycaemic benefits of fructose, together with
results from animal studies, raised the hypothesis
that a small catalytic dose of fructose administrated
with glucose may decrease the glycaemic response to
the glucose load (30). Moore et al. (30) examined
the effect of fructose on glucose tolerance by an oral
glucose tolerance test (OGTT) in healthy human
volunteers (five men and six women). Each subject
underwent OGTT on two separate occasions, at
least 1 week apart. Each OGTT consisted of 75 g
glucose with or without 7.5 g fructose, in a random
order. The area under the curve (AUC) of the
change in plasma glucose was 19% less in the OGTT
with fructose than in the OGTT without fructose
(pB
/0.05). The OGTT was improved by fructose in
nine subjects and worsened in two. All subjects with
the largest glucose AUC during OGTT without
fructose had a decreased response during OGTT
with fructose (mean decrease of 31%). There were
no differences between the OGTTs in serum insulin
AUC, glucagon, non-esterified fatty acid or trigly-
ceride concentrations. The authors concluded that
low-dose fructose improves the glycaemic response
to an oral glucose load in normal adults without
significantly enhancing the insulin or triglyceride
response. Importantly, fructose appeared to be most
effective in those normal individuals who had the
poorest glucose tolerance (30).
The above-mentioned results inspired the same
group to repeat the study with type 2 diabetic
subjects. Five diabetic subjects underwent an OGTT
on two occasions at least 1 week apart (31). As in
the earlier study, OGTT consisted of 75 g glucose
with or without the addition of 7.5 g fructose, in a
random order. The AUC of the plasma glucose
response was reduced by fructose administration in
all subjects, and the mean AUC during the OGTT
with fructose was 14% less than during the OGTT
without fructose (pB
/0.05). In contrast to the
earlier study with normal adults, the insulin AUC
was decreased by 21% with fructose administration.
Neither non-esterified fatty acids nor triglyceride
concentrations differed between the two trials,
which is in line with the earlier study with healthy
subjects (30). https://www.researchgate.net/public...m_body_weight_and_glucose_tolerance_in_humans

 

[PeskyPeater]

more explenation here;

In the study with
healthy subjects no difference was seen between the
OGTT with and without fructose, and in the study
with type 2 diabetic patients, the insulin AUC
decreased by 21% with fructose administration.
Therefore, the most probable mechanism for the
decreased glycaemic response may be fructose-
induced stimulation of hepatic glucose uptake. It
has been established that in hepatocytes, fructose is
rapidly phosphorylated to fructose-1-phosphate,
which competes with fructose-6-phosphate for bind-
ing on a glucokinase regulatory protein (GKRP).
As a result of this competition, glucokinase is
released from GKRP and the liberated glucokinase
diffuses to the cytosol. The glucokinase transloca-
tion stimulates the hepatic glucose uptake by
converting glucose to glycogen, and phosphoryla-
tion of glucose by glucokinase, which is a rate-
determining step for hepatic glucose metabolism.


Thus, the primary difference between hepatic fruc-
tose and glucose metabolism is that fructose mole-
cules by-pass the main rate-controlling step in
glycolysis, 6-phosphofructokinase.