Is low serotonin always associated with higher social status ? Throughout the animal kingdom there seems to be conflicting ideas

[JamesGatz]

I was reading through an older thread on the forum and saw a user say something along the lines of serotonergic chimpanzees being the leaders of their group ?

I am not sure what to think because from what I notice in people - low-serotonin attitudes seems to always imply higher social status

I was reading this study administering prozac to primates made them engaged in higher status behavior ?

The Biochemistry of Status and the Function of Mood States

After prozac the monkeys engaged in the following:
Dominant animals display an air of calm self-assurance, self-control, and self-directed behavior.

before prozac:
Subordinates, on the other hand, appear fidgety, easily perturbed, and their behavior seems to be largely controlled by external stimuli rather than being self-directed

How can this be ?
Isn't prozac and other anti-depressants supposed to raise serotonin ? It seems like the effects here are backwards - every person I knew in real life on anti-depressants did seem excessively high serotonin - so then what happens ?

Does it upregulate serotonin by lowering it and is that why anti-depressants are dangerous ?

The effects of Prozac all seem to be low-serotonin but according to the study prozac increased serotonin in the chimpanzees causing them to rise up in social status ? This seems backwards to me

I am not sure if I agree with serotonin being associated with high-status animals - apex predators seem to be generally more low-serotonin (orcas, gorillas, lions) - very androgenic, chill attitude-type animals which to me looks high DHT and low serotonin and they look to me to be high status animals in general - I never see them engage in conflict unless they have to

Meanwhile smaller primates like chimps seem low-status compared to the animals I mentioned - they seem to be very serotonergic compared to larger primates yet apparently giving them anti-depressants or raising serotonin seemed to increase social status according to the study ?​

 

[Jannes]

because serotonin receptors aren't as one dimensional as you think they are

 

[oldfriend]

Well the positive, mood-elevating effects of SSRI have nothing to do with serotonin right? Ask a psychiatrist: Serotonin levels stabilize after a few days of SSRI administration but the positive effects don't come until weeks later. There's a thread here somewhere that talks about the actual mechanisms being regulation of hormones, NMDA antagonism, etc.

 

[JamesGatz]

because serotonin receptors aren't as one dimensional as you think they are

True - It seems I have more to learn about this subject

Well the positive, mood-elevating effects of SSRI have nothing to do with serotonin right? Ask a psychiatrist: Serotonin levels stabilize after a few days of SSRI administration but the positive effects don't come until weeks later. There's a thread here somewhere that talks about the actual mechanisms being regulation of hormones, NMDA antagonism, etc.

Interesting - I'm going to see if I could look into that - I wonder how SSRI's have developed such a strong association with these school-shooter types - The people I have known in person seemed to be quiet unhinged but at the same time had an interesting mood about them - it seems this is a lot more complicated

 

[cupofcoffee]

well SSRIs do increase allopregnanolone (and bdnf but that's unrelated to this topic) which might account for a part of their benefits. Aside from the increase in neurosteroids, serotonin seems to be definetely involed in the maintenance of social hierarchies so modulating in some way (there are a lot of serotonin receptors so it's very complex) might ceirtantly help some people "climp the social ladder".

Aggression, lack of empathy and sociopathic behavior seem to be common in the elites so that might serve as proof that serotonin isn't all that bad for social status but idk.

 

[oldfriend]

Right but I just don't know that SSRI is helpful in drawing any meaningful conclusions here. Psychiatrists famously don't know how they work.

 

[JamesGatz]

well SSRIs do increase allopregnanolone (and bdnf but that's unrelated to this topic) which might account for a part of their benefits. Aside from the increase in neurosteroids, serotonin seems to be definetely involed in the maintenance of social hierarchies so modulating in some way (there are a lot of serotonin receptors so it's very complex) might ceirtantly help some people "climp the social ladder".

Aggression, lack of empathy and sociopathic behavior seem to be common in the elites so that might serve as proof that serotonin isn't all that bad for social status but idk.

I agree - The behavior of these elites seem to be cold/unempathetic - the Gates-types who present themselves as big philanthropists and behind the scenes they are quiet the schemers with no regards to life

Right but I just don't know that SSRI is helpful in drawing any meaningful conclusions here. Psychiatrists famously don't know how they work.

Yea that does make sense - When I had made this thread I had thought to myself these SSRI's/antidepressants all resulted in the unhinged attitudes via serotonin I had found in certain people but it seems to be a lot more to it than that

 

[Kram]

I think high serotonin can contribute to psychopathic, narcissistic behavior and make you want to control other people which seems to reflect a lot of the people in power today. High androgens/low serotonin gives you a different type of leader that is much more genuine IMO.

Haidut also made this post a few years ago which I thought was interesting:

Both Conservatives And Liberals Are Narcissistic, Former Are Entitled Latter Are Insecure

I think this is a good study which shows that both political "camps" have their own peculiarities and limitations. As such, we should probably keep these findings in mind when evaluating politicians or even just people we interact with on a daily basis. The study called found liberals scoring...

raypeatforum.com

"As an additional confirmation, I know several people who are high in the pecking order (e.g. big company executives) and were extremely narcissistic and even psychopathic in the past. After beginning to use cyproheptadine or ondansetron on a regular basis these people changed so dramatically that they no longer fit the requirements for executives and two of them left their C-level positions to seek their passion elsewhere. One of them told me a month ago that he "does not feel an interest any more in making a ton of money and controlling other people's lives"."

 

[Yonebayashian]

Whenever I have gut disturbance and resulting high serotonin I find it extremely difficult to think about anything other than immediately satiating the stress it accompanies. The majority of people immediately turn to addictive behaviors (high dopamine activities) to ease it, but if you're already at the top of the hedonistic treadmill then to further pursue dopamine pleasure you need to mix fear in order to achieve the same kick. This makes sense why the elite engage in disturbing sexual behavior a la Epstein. Perhaps they decide to engage in intentional villainous war crimes against humanity as another way to get their kick.


If you observe the history of philosophy, there is a very strong trend of reducing the world down into a handful of principles in dialectical (opposing) tension with each other. Serotonin and dopamine are antagonistic with each other, but they don't map exactly onto good vs evil. Epstein lived an extremely high dopamine life.

 

[Rasaari]

I think serotonic people value hierarchy very much. I think thats why those in power are highly serotonic, politics and power attract the most serotonic freaks, who try to compensate their failure to control their own life by controlling others. To fulfill their insecurities by being savior of the people or smth.

I think that SSRIs mostly achieve their "benefits" by numbing the receptors so hard that no longer swings in serotonin affect that much. Life is just constantly pain so its easy to get use to it, rather than having ptsd attacks and moodswings.

 

[BigShoes]

Hi James,

Being high-serotonin makes people anxious, irritable and aggressive - as opposed to being relaxed, playful, curious and in-control of themselves.

If high-serotonin is mixed with high androgens in a person (or possibly even high estrogen), it is common for these types to become bullies. Whilst a bully is often internally very weak, with poor foundations and self-assurance, they can still control all of their peers and rule through fear on the playground / in the office.

In a paradigm where physical power and dominance are key determinants of an animal's position in its respective hierarchy, it is certainly possible (or even likely) that an anxious, irritable and aggressive animal could rise to the top - e.g. in chimpanzee societies. They achieve dominance through bullying and aggression.

They typically become tyrants though, and the society is unable to thrive - high stress, low cooperation, living in fear of punishment / ostracism, the society breaks down. Such a family of chimps would typically not survive a fight or battle with a neighboring chimp society with a just, strong (high-dopamine ) ruler.

Regarding the study - it is very difficult to properly assess the changes in behaviour quantitatively and qualitatively to form the right conclusions. e.g.:
- do humans really understand chimp behaviours that well?
- are "higher status behaviours" things like chest-thumping, bellowing / growling, acting tough? if so, these types of behaviours would correlate well with high-serotonin.
- when we say "self-assured" or "self-control", how is this being measured? For manic humans who have lost control of themselves (high cortisol, high stress, low status, unhealthy physiology), prozac was administered to get them to chill the F out. On the surface, those humans seem to have relaxed and become more "in control", but as you probably know (given your initial premise), these people are basically just zombies after prozac administration... they appear to be in-control outwardly, but really, they are hanging on by a thread. The prozac appears to be having the same effect in the chimps.

Cheers.

 

[HighT]

Chimpanzee is quite agressive animal. They get mad to each other over little things and are capable of cruelty. No wonder if their leaders are high S. I think there was such expression in English- ''chimp-out"

 

[JamesGatz]

"As an additional confirmation, I know several people who are high in the pecking order (e.g. big company executives) and were extremely narcissistic and even psychopathic in the past. After beginning to use cyproheptadine or ondansetron on a regular basis these people changed so dramatically that they no longer fit the requirements for executives and two of them left their C-level positions to seek their passion elsewhere. One of them told me a month ago that he "does not feel an interest any more in making a ton of money and controlling other people's lives"."

I had a very similar experience - Once my health started to improve I left corporate and found it very intolerable - in a higher serotonergic state I just dealt with it but once I got healthier I realized how much I hated everything about it

If you observe the history of philosophy, there is a very strong trend of reducing the world down into a handful of principles in dialectical (opposing) tension with each other. Serotonin and dopamine are antagonistic with each other, but they don't map exactly onto good vs evil. Epstein lived an extremely high dopamine life.

Very true these are some good points I hadn't thought about before - Interestingly enough before Epstein blew up I used to pass by his house all the time in West Palm Beach down in Florida cause it was near my job and in New York I used to walk by his building all the time because it was right next to my sister's school and the Ralph Lauren store I frequented

I think serotonic people value hierarchy very much. I think thats why those in power are highly serotonic, politics and power attract the most serotonic freaks, who try to compensate their failure to control their own life by controlling others. To fulfill their insecurities by being savior of the people or smth.

I think that SSRIs mostly achieve their "benefits" by numbing the receptors so hard that no longer swings in serotonin affect that much. Life is just constantly pain so its easy to get use to it, rather than having ptsd attacks and moodswings.

Yes this is a good point - I do find the body very adaptable to just about anything I would definitely imagine their bodies becoming very accustomed quickly.

Hi James,

Being high-serotonin makes people anxious, irritable and aggressive - as opposed to being relaxed, playful, curious and in-control of themselves.

If high-serotonin is mixed with high androgens in a person (or possibly even high estrogen), it is common for these types to become bullies. Whilst a bully is often internally very weak, with poor foundations and self-assurance, they can still control all of their peers and rule through fear on the playground / in the office.

In a paradigm where physical power and dominance are key determinants of an animal's position in its respective hierarchy, it is certainly possible (or even likely) that an anxious, irritable and aggressive animal could rise to the top - e.g. in chimpanzee societies. They achieve dominance through bullying and aggression.

They typically become tyrants though, and the society is unable to thrive - high stress, low cooperation, living in fear of punishment / ostracism, the society breaks down. Such a family of chimps would typically not survive a fight or battle with a neighboring chimp society with a just, strong (high-dopamine ) ruler.

Regarding the study - it is very difficult to properly assess the changes in behaviour quantitatively and qualitatively to form the right conclusions. e.g.:
- do humans really understand chimp behaviours that well?
- are "higher status behaviours" things like chest-thumping, bellowing / growling, acting tough? if so, these types of behaviours would correlate well with high-serotonin.
- when we say "self-assured" or "self-control", how is this being measured? For manic humans who have lost control of themselves (high cortisol, high stress, low status, unhealthy physiology), prozac was administered to get them to chill the F out. On the surface, those humans seem to have relaxed and become more "in control", but as you probably know (given your initial premise), these people are basically just zombies after prozac administration... they appear to be in-control outwardly, but really, they are hanging on by a thread. The prozac appears to be having the same effect in the chimps.

Cheers.

Wow these are some excellent points about the prozac - I recall a time where my mother visited a doctor about anxiety and he prescribed to her some anti-anxiety medications and she became exactly as you say - like a zombie - she seemed more calm but her personality, her motivation, anything about her as a person was gone - she was lifeless and it took her a while to get off of it.

I also find the leader part quiet interesting - When I had worked in retail stores I notice that higher-dopamine like supervisors were generally respected but people still did what they had to do - with higher-serotonin supervisors everyone hated them and felt on-edge and did what they had to do because they seemed afraid to be yelled at by such person - I imagine in the wild there is something similar - where animals work better together when their leader is higher-dopamine like

Chimpanzee is quite agressive animal. They get mad to each other over little things and are capable of cruelty. No wonder if their leaders are high S. I think there was such expression in English- ''chimp-out"

Yes I was reading this the other day:

Apes are natural sexual harassers – DW – 07/06/2017

A new study has revealed the extent to which male apes use sexual intimidation to control their mates. This could extend to our most familiar primate - humans.

www.dw.com

It seems these smaller primates get quiet aggressive with each other - even when they are playing they seem to play a lot more aggressively with each other and I don't notice the same behavior in larger apes like gorillas - I was also reading something the other day that a group of chimps randomly decided to gang up on a gorilla and kill him unprovoked - very serotonergic behavior in my view seeking unprovoked violence especially against animals that are more calm

 

[Jinzo]

I recall Jordan Peterson talking about his (in)famous lobster studies saying that serotonin makes the lobsters more dominant in the social hierarchy

 

[YourUniverse]

I recall Jordan Peterson talking about his (in)famous lobster studies saying that serotonin makes the lobsters more dominant in the social hierarchy

I wonder how they differentiated between dominant and aggressive. In nature, I think the largest, most aggressive animals tend to be the most dominant. In humans packs of "betas" take out "alphas" all the time (through alliances, networks, and other machinations of the neocortex).