What causes the feelings of having a crush on someone and having difficulty getting over an ex ? Is it just serotonin and oxytocin ?

JamesGatz

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I notice that when I am low serotonin - I don't really have feelings in the sense of romantic relationships - I don't get jealous nor do I care for any of my exes or any girl that I have ever talked to or made a connection with - I feel like talking to girls and having relations with them but I do not feel emotionally attached in any way shape or form


tumblr_o0yzdjEOKF1u8koj8o1_1280.jpg


Whenever I have had a crush on a girl - I notice I was not low-serotonin in that state and as soon as I lower serotonin I stop caring about what happens - in a low-serotonergic state - I'm down to have relations but don't feel emotionally attached to any specific girl.


It seems that oxytocin activates serotonin ? What about vice-versa - is being in a medium or high-serotonergic state make one "vulnerable" to forming emotional attachments/Crushes or bonding connections via oxytocin ? My knowledge on the subject is limited so please correct me if I am wrong


"We found that oxytocin provokes the release of serotonin, which in turn impacts on the serotonin 1A receptor system, by modulating its availability. This happens in several key brain regions for social behavior, such as the amygdala and insula."

"Our results show that oxytocin administration in nonhuman primates influences serotoninergic neurotransmission via at least two ways: (1) by provoking a release of serotonin in key limbic regions; and (2) by increasing the availability of 5-HT1AR receptors in the same limbic areas. Because these two molecules are important for social behavior"


Based on these descriptions of how oxytocin structurally influences serotonin - it seems the immediate disruption of oxytocin would have some drawbacks - would going through a break-up have a negative impact on how serotonin is working in the brain which may be the cause of people crying in break-ups or lashing out at their exes ? I'm thinking of experiences of people trying to quit SSRI's acting erratically and it seems to be a similar effect at least by sound




 
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opethfeldt

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Serotonin goes down when we enter new relationships and I'm sure it goes up after a breakup, which tends to be when the longing feeling for the person is the strongest, for me. The sooner I get back out there (novelty decreases serotonin), the sooner I get over her. It's funny, I always find that I care more about the girl after the relationship is over than I did during it.
 

michael94

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Its normal. You are getting into a very ugly line of thinking by trying to narrow this down to hormones and hack your way out of it.

Help yourself and the Almighty will not deny you his assistance.
 
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JamesGatz

JamesGatz

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Its normal. You are getting into a very ugly line of thinking by trying to narrow this down to hormones and hack your way out of it.

Help yourself and the Almighty will not deny you his assistance.
I understand where you're coming from but with all due respect I think that hormones/serotonin completely influence this behavior:

I am 2 completely different people when I am low vs not-low serotonin in every sense of the word -

Low-serotonin :
I do not care much for anything, Not motivated to make a lot of money or to do well in life, I am a lot more social with people and strangers in general (I find it a lot easier to convince people to do things for me in this state), I am very calm and am not worried much about the future or anything as a matter of fact (not worried about catching any sickness or disease for example), not interested in romantic relationships with a woman

Interestingly enough in this state - I am interested in pursuing bigger women for relations but am also interested in pursuing successful women for financial reasons - it feels like I am trying to use people for my own benefit but not necessarily in a bad way - just in a way that ensures my survival - not interested in having children whatsoever


Normal or High Serotonin:
Motivated to do well in life - to be the best that I can be, interested in finding a high-quality woman as a partner (in this state - I feel vulnerable to catch feelings for a chick), distrusting and reluctance to talk to strangers, concern and preparedness for the future, not as good as talking to people at all in this state

In this state - I am really only interested in becoming immensely successful and pursuing a high-quality women with the purpose of making high-quality children - in this state I long for a family and kids that I could raise to be successful as well

I do believe in the Almighty but I feel this situation is relevant for users who are recovering from a break-up or they want to avoid catching feelings as an example, I don't really view low-serotonin behavior as a problem per-say but think it is worth this discussion
 
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michael94

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D
I understand where you're coming from but with all due respect I think that hormones/serotonin completely influence this behavior:

I am 2 completely different people when I am low vs not-low serotonin in every sense of the word -

Low-serotonin :
I do not care much for anything, Not motivated to make a lot of money or to do well in life, I am a lot more social with people and strangers in general (I find it a lot easier to convince people to do things for me in this state), I am very calm and am not worried much about the future or anything as a matter of fact (not worried about catching any sickness or disease for example), not interested in romantic relationships with a woman

Interestingly enough in this state - I am interested in pursuing bigger women for relations but am also interested in pursuing successful women for financial reasons - it feels like I am trying to use people for my own benefit but not necessarily in a bad way - just in a way that ensures my survival - not interested in having children whatsoever


Normal or High Serotonin:
Motivated to do well in life - to be the best that I can be, interested in finding a high-quality woman as a partner (in this state - I feel vulnerable to catch feelings for a chick), distrusting and reluctance to talk to strangers, concern and preparedness for the future, not as good as talking to people at all in this state

In this state - I am really only interested in becoming immensely successful and pursuing a high-quality women with the purpose of making high-quality children - in this state I long for a family and kids that I could raise to be successful as well

I do believe in the Almighty but I feel this situation is relevant for users who are recovering from a break-up or they want to avoid catching feelings as an example, I don't really view low-serotonin behavior as a problem per-say but think it is worth this discussion
sulfur in my experience helps deal with the heavy burden you are describing. But I think some of that burden makes you a healthy person ( mentally also ).
 
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I think attachment has to do a lot with the emotional state of that person. If a person is genetically emotional, it will be easier to get attached to people, but also it will be harder to get over it. And if that person has psychopathic traits, then it will be the exact opposite. It has pluses and minuses. You also can be "outside the matrix", cracking jokes and childish being an emotional and sensitive human being. It does not have to do much with serotonin. It's true that too much serotonin makes everything numb and careless.

When I was on LSD afterglow, I felt alive, with full dopamine and low serotonin. My senses were so awake that I could feel the energy between people way easier. Although serotonin levels were very low, I had an even greater desire to build interpersonal relationships.
 

LeeLemonoil

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Another reductionist rant in capital letters here.

Facts: Serotonin is part of ancient, conserved immunity.

Mating and partnership are central to human existence. If a human being tries to win or keep a suitable, valuable mate it’s an evolved immunity process. Fight or flight. In that case - fight. Serotonin signaling is part of that process.

The same apllies with losing a mate / ending a relationship. You’ll fight that - or flee from the Stress.

Everything is subject to homeostasis.

If serotonin signaling is impaired or dopamine signaling dominates transmission than one might not feel the need to bond or fight and flight. That can be good or bad depending on context.

So can be the opposite.

If periods of intense serotonin signaling helps mating it’s what evolution brought about - functioning hoenestasis will See to it that the condition doesn’t prevail too long to be detrimental. If not, it will be detrimental. There is nothing inherently good or bad or useful or harmful in physiology without context
 

Razvan

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I think attachment has to do a lot with the emotional state of that person. If a person is genetically emotional, it will be easier to get attached to people, but also it will be harder to get over it. And if that person has psychopathic traits, then it will be the exact opposite. It has pluses and minuses. You also can be "outside the matrix", cracking jokes and childish being an emotional and sensitive human being. It does not have to do much with serotonin. It's true that too much serotonin makes everything numb and careless.

When I was on LSD afterglow, I felt alive, with full dopamine and low serotonin. My senses were so awake that I could feel the energy between people way easier. Although serotonin levels were very low, I had an even greater desire to build interpersonal relationships.
Perfectly described,but I think emotions can sometime change a little bit in base of how your hormones are, even a not so emotional person can be overly jealous over a girl if he has very high estrogen. It can make you think different.
 

Razvan

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Also,Ray peat doesn't think low serotonin makes you don't caring,but he thinks that low serotonin makes you want help people and caring about them,just like progesterone with and or coffee makes me feel, very protective.
The situation you describe seems more a high DHT situation where you care only about yourself.
 
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Perfectly described,but I think emotions can sometime change a little bit in base of how your hormones are, even a not so emotional person can be overly jealous over a girl if he has very high estrogen. It can make you think different.
True, the hormones play a major role. Also I noticed a difference between being overly jealous over a girl due to high estrogen and being caring due to high progesterone. You can be a good partner, caring and attentive and totally unjealous at the same time, this being a trait of high progesterone. On the other hand, high estrogen will make you the opposite, needy and jealous.
 

Razvan

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True, the hormones play a major role. Also I noticed a difference between being overly jealous over a girl due to high estrogen and being caring due to high progesterone. You can be a good partner, caring and attentive and totally unjealous at the same time, this being a trait of high progesterone. On the other hand, high estrogen will make you the opposite, needy and jealous.
Amazing, perfectly well put my brother from another mother
 
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JamesGatz

JamesGatz

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Another reductionist rant in capital letters here.

Facts: Serotonin is part of ancient, conserved immunity.

Mating and partnership are central to human existence. If a human being tries to win or keep a suitable, valuable mate it’s an evolved immunity process. Fight or flight. In that case - fight. Serotonin signaling is part of that process.

The same apllies with losing a mate / ending a relationship. You’ll fight that - or flee from the Stress.

Everything is subject to homeostasis.

If serotonin signaling is impaired or dopamine signaling dominates transmission than one might not feel the need to bond or fight and flight. That can be good or bad depending on context.

So can be the opposite.

If periods of intense serotonin signaling helps mating it’s what evolution brought about - functioning hoenestasis will See to it that the condition doesn’t prevail too long to be detrimental. If not, it will be detrimental. There is nothing inherently good or bad or useful or harmful in physiology without context

Yes - honestly I did not make this thread to say that being in a serotonergic state was good or bad - I too, believe that context is important here - It was merely to see if we could break down this feeling into a process - If I take a lot of things to lower my serotonin I think what Razvan described was accurate - I come to a situation where I only care about myself and it's difficult for me to even show up for work or do stuff for other people - when my metabolism is high but I am not focused in lowering serotonin as much I get a lot of things done especially from a financial standpoint so I do believe context is important

Also,Ray peat doesn't think low serotonin makes you don't caring,but he thinks that low serotonin makes you want help people and caring about them,just like progesterone with and or coffee makes me feel, very protective.
The situation you describe seems more a high DHT situation where you care only about yourself.
Interesting - I have been feeling especially androgenic lately so I would not be surprised if it was DHT instead of serotonin - interestingly enough I feel that the two are usually intertwined with me - where I usually don't start feeling this way until I lower serotonin
 
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JamesGatz

JamesGatz

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I think attachment has to do a lot with the emotional state of that person. If a person is genetically emotional, it will be easier to get attached to people, but also it will be harder to get over it. And if that person has psychopathic traits, then it will be the exact opposite. It has pluses and minuses. You also can be "outside the matrix", cracking jokes and childish being an emotional and sensitive human being. It does not have to do much with serotonin. It's true that too much serotonin makes everything numb and careless.

When I was on LSD afterglow, I felt alive, with full dopamine and low serotonin. My senses were so awake that I could feel the energy between people way easier. Although serotonin levels were very low, I had an even greater desire to build interpersonal relationships.
Interesting - honestly this is why I made this thread to see if there is more too it - when I lower serotonin a lot it is difficult for me to function that well in normie world and even experience normie feelings, but I was not sure if it's serotonin itself or something else involved in the process
 

Razvan

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Yes - honestly I did not make this thread to say that being in a serotonergic state was good or bad - I too, believe that context is important here - It was merely to see if we could break down this feeling into a process - If I take a lot of things to lower my serotonin I think what Razvan described was accurate - I come to a situation where I only care about myself and it's difficult for me to even show up for work or do stuff for other people - when my metabolism is high but I am not focused in lowering serotonin as much I get a lot of things done especially from a financial standpoint so I do believe context is important


Interesting - I have been feeling especially androgenic lately so I would not be surprised if it was DHT instead of serotonin - interestingly enough I feel that the two are usually intertwined with me - where I usually don't start feeling this way until I lower serotonin
Yes indeed low serotonin makes you go outside the robotic world and it gives you more courage so you can adapt in every situation and you aren't scared of doing things that are not accepted in this robotic society,you can speak with everyone you don't know in the street without wanting to be isolated or left alone but this doesn't give you the" don't caring about anyone mindset". Only with high DHT paired with low serotonin state can give you this ; you have the courage to be different from low serotonin and you have the don't caring ,risk taking behaviour from dht. This is what you have in that situation. When I take androsterone with an anti serotonin component this is exactly what happens,but you also have the relaxed depersonalisation feeling you have with very high gaba.
That's why I prefer raising my D2 dopamine receptor and lowering serotonin cause you feel hyperaware,euphoric and happy and you have the courage,the state to do everything,without the high gaba depersonalization feeling which can be very antiproductive. From all my experiments chronic high gaba is not the goal and at some point makes you feel very ***t. :))
 
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JamesGatz

JamesGatz

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Yes indeed low serotonin makes you go outside the robotic world and it gives you more courage so you can adapt in every situation and you aren't scared of doing things that are not accepted in this robotic society,you can speak with everyone you don't know in the street without wanting to be isolated or left alone but this doesn't give you the" don't caring about anyone mindset". Only with high DHT paired with low serotonin state can give you this ; you have the courage to be different from low serotonin and you have the don't caring ,risk taking behaviour from dht. This is what you have in that situation. When I take androsterone with an anti serotonin component this is exactly what happens,but you also have the relaxed depersonalisation feeling you have with very high gaba.
That's why I prefer raising my D2 dopamine receptor and lowering serotonin cause you feel hyperaware,euphoric and happy and you have the courage,the state to do everything,without the high gaba depersonalization feeling which can be very antiproductive. From all my experiments chronic high gaba is not the goal and at some point makes you feel very ***t. :))
Very interesting - this makes a lot of sense and is very accurate with me - I shall conduct more experimentation with what you have mentioned because I do agree - being in this state makes me feel very anti-productive but "safe" if that makes sense
 

aniciete

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Yes indeed low serotonin makes you go outside the robotic world and it gives you more courage so you can adapt in every situation and you aren't scared of doing things that are not accepted in this robotic society,you can speak with everyone you don't know in the street without wanting to be isolated or left alone but this doesn't give you the" don't caring about anyone mindset". Only with high DHT paired with low serotonin state can give you this ; you have the courage to be different from low serotonin and you have the don't caring ,risk taking behaviour from dht. This is what you have in that situation. When I take androsterone with an anti serotonin component this is exactly what happens,but you also have the relaxed depersonalisation feeling you have with very high gaba.
That's why I prefer raising my D2 dopamine receptor and lowering serotonin cause you feel hyperaware,euphoric and happy and you have the courage,the state to do everything,without the high gaba depersonalization feeling which can be very antiproductive. From all my experiments chronic high gaba is not the goal and at some point makes you feel very ***t. :))
What do you take to raise dopamine and lower serotonin?
 

Quelsatron

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How do you know you are high/low serotonin? I find a lot of people are just matching peatosphere theory to how they feel, but the reality is always more complex than ones understanding of it, so i don't think it's a very accurate habit.
 
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JamesGatz

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How do you know you are high/low serotonin? I find a lot of people are just matching peatosphere theory to how they feel, but the reality is always more complex than ones understanding of it, so i don't think it's a very accurate habit.
Well I associate feelings of serotonin with the feelings I would get when I ate an apple -

An excitation state, high-inhibition (more self-conscious about what others think of me), concerned and overtly prepared for my own future, not feeling calm at all and it feels difficult to have a comfortable flow in conversation

I associate the feelings of low serotonin when I drink a coke or take K2 for example -

I feel relaxed, Low-inhibition (don't care what others think of me), am comfortable talking to anyone even with strangers, I am a lot more friendly and am a lot better with conversing with people, I am not overtly concerned about anything and feel that everything in my life will work itself out, I describe this state as serene calmness vs the excitation state I described above
 
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How do you know you are high/low serotonin? I find a lot of people are just matching peatosphere theory to how they feel, but the reality is always more complex than ones understanding of it, so i don't think it's a very accurate habit.
I assume it's the feeling I got after eating several bananas. Instead of "hot-headed", I felt "normal".
 

Dr. B

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I notice that when I am low serotonin - I don't really have feelings in the sense of romantic relationships - I don't get jealous nor do I care for any of my exes or any girl that I have ever talked to or made a connection with - I feel like talking to girls and having relations with them but I do not feel emotionally attached in any way shape or form


View attachment 29543

Whenever I have had a crush on a girl - I notice I was not low-serotonin in that state and as soon as I lower serotonin I stop caring about what happens - in a low-serotonergic state - I'm down to have relations but don't feel emotionally attached to any specific girl.


It seems that oxytocin activates serotonin ? What about vice-versa - is being in a medium or high-serotonergic state make one "vulnerable" to forming emotional attachments/Crushes or bonding connections via oxytocin ? My knowledge on the subject is limited so please correct me if I am wrong


"We found that oxytocin provokes the release of serotonin, which in turn impacts on the serotonin 1A receptor system, by modulating its availability. This happens in several key brain regions for social behavior, such as the amygdala and insula."

"Our results show that oxytocin administration in nonhuman primates influences serotoninergic neurotransmission via at least two ways: (1) by provoking a release of serotonin in key limbic regions; and (2) by increasing the availability of 5-HT1AR receptors in the same limbic areas. Because these two molecules are important for social behavior"


Based on these descriptions of how oxytocin structurally influences serotonin - it seems the immediate disruption of oxytocin would have some drawbacks - would going through a break-up have a negative impact on how serotonin is working in the brain which may be the cause of people crying in break-ups or lashing out at their exes ? I'm thinking of experiences of people trying to quit SSRI's acting erratically and it seems to be a similar effect at least by sound



how do you know when you are in a low serotonin state? I thought serotonin itself causes that state of not caring about anything?

the not being able to get over an ex could be due to excess estrogen
could be due to the wrong type of relationship
the person not having other options

low serotonin should provide lots of motivation
 
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