Is Civilization Ableist?

[energyandstruct]

 

[energyandstruct]

Related to mcas, and many kinds of enviromental illness

 

[energyandstruct]

@SB4

 

[PhilParma]

What isn't ableist? Civilization is probably the least ableist thing I can think of off the top of my head, although I admit I haven't thought much about this topic. Might as well ask, "is the structure of reality ableist?"

 

[energyandstruct]

Civilization leads to illnesses of civilization that afflict both humans and non humans

 

[Aaron]

Stupid video.

 

[postman]

Of course civilization is ableist but nature is even more ableist. If you're handicapped in nature you're an easy prey. Just look at how wild animals treat their sick, they just leave them behind, they just leave them to die.

At least in a western democracy you will get a poverty income from the government to pay for rent and food so that you can survive, in nature you would be left to fend for yourself unless there was someone who offered themselves to be depended upon.

 

[energyandstruct]

a) it's not actually that easy to get disability benefits lol
And
B) the point is I'm talking about. Broad swaths of current day illness being enviromentally caused. Of course there will always be some weak and sick and they will die in nature but many diseases are diseases of civilization

C). The phenomenon of people getting kept alive while too sick to take care of themselves is unique to. "advanced" civilization, abd wouldn't happen in nature. Nature provides merciful death to the sick

 

[postman]

Nature is anything but merciful, lol

 

[LUH 3417]

Of course civilization is ableist but nature is even more ableist. If you're handicapped in nature you're an easy prey. Just look at how wild animals treat their sick, they just leave them behind, they just leave them to die.

At least in a western democracy you will get a poverty income from the government to pay for rent and food so that you can survive, in nature you would be left to fend for yourself unless there was someone who offered themselves to be depended upon.

So all the homeless people just lost their directions to the government office?

 

[energyandstruct]

Nature is anything but merciful, lol

Its more merciful than industrial civ. I don't jnow if you totally missed my point but yes, in nature animals who are sick ans weak often die. But they die more swiftly than the sick and weak in our society who are kept alive on ffeeding tubes etc. I guess it comes down to subjectivr ideas about quality of life.

Plus the whole nature red in tooth and claw thing is this hobbesian philosophy that overdramatizes one aspect of nature. Hunter gatherers lived in accordance with ecological law but they were not anywhere close to the bottom of thr food chain. They have been called the original affluent society

 

[LeeLemonoil]

Wow guys. Where’s @postman from?
It’s not in all western democracies, no sir.

In Germany, yes. You need never lift a finger and get paid rent, health insurance and money to survive. You need not even have a legal reason for residency, just come here.

I don’t know if there is anything similar absurd welfare in the world. Sweden and Denmark maybe.
And yes, @raysputin the homeless here don’t even manage to go to the office

 

[tankasnowgod]

So all the homeless people just lost their directions to the government office?

I've worked with some that are indeed getting government benefits, in some cases, quite a bit higher than even just "Poverty Level."

 

[postman]

Its more merciful than industrial civ. I don't jnow if you totally missed my point but yes, in nature animals who are sick ans weak often die. But they die more swiftly than the sick and weak in our society who are kept alive on ffeeding tubes etc. I guess it comes down to subjectivr ideas about quality of life.

Plus the whole nature red in tooth and claw thing is this hobbesian philosophy that overdramatizes one aspect of nature. Hunter gatherers lived in accordance with ecological law but they were not anywhere close to the bottom of thr food chain. They have been called the original affluent society

Nonsense, your fantasies about nature are not based on reality. Maybe if you lived in the tropics with fruit just falling of the trees, but anywhere else, no. Being fed through a tube is a choice, and when it isn't it's an action of mercy, unless you think that letting helpless people starve for weeks until they die is merciful. But you probably do think that's merciful if you think nature is merciful.

 

[energyandstruct]

Nonsense, your fantasies about nature are not based on reality. Maybe if you lived in the tropics with fruit just falling of the trees, but anywhere else, no. Being fed through a tube is a choice, and when it isn't it's an action of mercy, unless you think that letting helpless people starve for weeks until they die is merciful. But you probably do think that's merciful if you think nature is merciful.

Humans in Hunter gatherer societies worked less hours than people in modern day civilization. They also were nowhere near yhe bottom of the food chain. Occasional famines still happened but far from the horror story people tell themselves about primitive life. If you had a cjronic condition that meant you couldn't take care of yourself most likely you'd starve, instead of being kept alive for years suffering. I consider starvation merciful compares to years of chronic pain. You're throwing a lot of rude ad hominems around instead of debating the core premises here. Read Ishmael by Daniel quinn

 

[energyandstruct]

 

[energyandstruct]

 

[PhilParma]

I'm sorry that you're going through all of that. I agree with most of what you're saying, but I don't understand how it connects to "ableism." How does the existence of diseases of civilization connect to ableism? Do you think nature is less ableist than modern civilization? You may think that a quick death is merciful, but isn't it also ableist? Nature is so discriminatory against the disabled that it wipes them out nearly instantaneously. Civilization is anti-ableist because it supports the disabled through things like feeding tubes, insofar as you consider life support to be "support." Is your idea of supporting the disabled something like having a mountain lion slash your gullet? (that was a joke)

It's hard for me to even take that word ableism seriously considering I never heard it in my life's 17 years of schooling--the first time I came across it was probably through tumblr somehow. As far as I can tell, the concept of ableism is a mask that leftist ideologues use to hide their deep resentment that other people are doing better than they are. If the concept holds more substance than that, then I'm open to trying to understand it.

 

[energyandstruct]

A) it's partially tongue in cheek even though i seriously believe as a disabled person that id rather havw a mountain lion slash my gullet , that is not the dominant definition of ableism. But theres been so much criticism of anti civilization thought as Ableist whereas I think that industrial civilization causes more disease and suffering. Nature discriminates against the disavled but again, in a way that results in less overall disease and suffering. I think the arguments against anticiv as "Ableist" require close criticism and examination in the light of theories that many modern chronic illnesses are diseases of civilization.

 

[energyandstruct]

B) i will get to B) later. But the point is there is some level of tongue in cheek here.