How to fix hemosiderin?

[Wen]

My gf is 25 and about a month or two ago we noticed she had brown patches on her calfs just above the sock area. She’s also had oedema for some time too and it’s quite severe - when clothes are removed she has very deep indents of the clothing patterns and they take a long time to fade out. Diet-wise she’s a ‘Veggan’ which is a Vegan that also consumes eggs. Since this hemosiderin started she’s been using compression stockings and trying to get a bit more exercise but the hemosiderin has not changed at all. I realise hemosiderin is pretty much impossible to get rid of since unless you cure what is causing it it keeps forming again and again.

Any advice on what to do to fix what is causing this?

 

[unsubscribed]

Hey,
Quit the PUFA’s and implement Vit E

 

[Wen]

Thanks for the reply. That's general good advice but any reason why it would have any specific effect on the hemosiderin?

 

[yerrag]

I think that if you log what she eats in a typical day, and input that into cronometer.com, you would find out what she is taking in terms of macros, vitamins, and minerals. Since there is edema and not just hemosiderin, hemosiderin seems to be merely be a symptom that is most visible. Edema happens most often to elderly people, as the imbalances are finally catching up as they accumulate over the years.

 

[Wen]

I think that if you log what she eats in a typical day, and input that into cronometer.com, you would find out what she is taking in terms of macros, vitamins, and minerals.

Ok but what would I be looking for there?

Since there is edema and not just hemosiderin, hemosiderin seems to be merely be a symptom that is most visible. Edema happens most often to elderly people, as the imbalances are finally catching up as they accumulate over the years.

Yes it is odd but she's had quite severe oedema since I met her at 18...? Even though she appears thin and healthy. I should add that she also suffers from feeling faint when standing so it seems there is some kind of circulation issue.

 

[yerrag]

Ok but what would I be looking for there?

what is sufficient and what's sufficient. then you'll know what foods to add to eliminate any deficiency. supplements can be added for the time being but sourced from whole foods is always better.

Yes it is odd but she's had quite severe oedema since I met her at 18...? Even though she appears thin and healthy. I should add that she also suffers from feeling faint when standing so it seems there is some kind of circulation issue.

if you have her CBC results alone to begin with you may learn more of her condition as related to feeling faint.

 

[Wen]

what is sufficient and what's sufficient. then you'll know what foods to add to eliminate any deficiency. supplements can be added for the time being but sourced from whole foods is always better.

She started taking B vitamins recently since vegans tend to be lower in them, although she does eat eggs. I searched and couldn't find anything about a deficiency causing hemosiderin though so wouldn't know what constitutes deficient. There are also all kinds of different standards on how much we require of everything so hard to tell what would constitute deficient.

if you have her CBC results alone to begin with you may learn more of her condition as related to feeling faint.

Yes I do:

WBC 4.90 (10^9/L) 4 - 10
RBC 4.58 (10^9/L) 3.68 - 5.13
HGB 137.18 (g/L) 113 - 151
HCT 40.89 (%) 33.5 - 45.0
MCV 89.28 (fL) 82.6 - 99.1
MCH 29.95 (pg) 26.9 - 33.3
MCHC 335.48 (g/L) 322 - 362
PLT 295.71 (10^9/L) 100 - 300

 

[yerrag]

She started taking B vitamins recently since vegans tend to be lower in them, although she does eat eggs. I searched and couldn't find anything about a deficiency causing hemosiderin though so wouldn't know what constitutes deficient. There are also all kinds of different standards on how much we require of everything so hard to tell what would constitute deficient.

Keep it simple first and go with what cronometer spits out. You can work with that first. Don't be overwhelmed by the confusion.

You're right that vegans would be low on some B vitamins. There are also others such as iron, vitamin A, and K2.

I don't supplement a lot because I strive for variety. But since her veggan lifestyle limits her to a smaller selection, she would likely have some deficiencies.

I don't know about hemosiderin but that seems iron-related. Could she be taking a lot of non-heme iron and not heme iron because of her lifestyle? I'm just guessing here. And what of her fat intake? Is it the filthy "heart-healthy" kind of the American Heart Association?

WBC 4.90 (10^9/L)
RBC 4.58 (10^9/L)
HGB 137.18 (g/L)
HCT 40.89 (%)
MCV 89.28 (fL)
MCH 29.95 (pg)
MCHC 335.48 (g/L)
PLT 295.71 (10^9/L)

Looks very good. Optimal.

What about the rest of the wbc like neutrophils etc?

 

[Wen]

I don't know about hemosiderin but that seems iron-related. Could she be taking a lot of non-heme iron and not heme iron because of her lifestyle? I'm just guessing here. And what of her fat intake? Is it the filthy "heart-healthy" kind of the American Heart Association?

For a veggan she eats surprisingly few vegetables too so probably doesn't have a problem with non-heme iron. But iron would certainly fit with hemosiderin. We cook only with coconut oil but if she gets a takeaway which she is partial to, it's gonna have junk oils, so I try to limit that. Potatoes, carrots, coriander, spring onions, eggs and long grain white rice would be what she eats the most of.

Looks very good. Optimal.

What about the rest of the wbc like neutrophils etc?

Ok sure, there are loads on the report but I'm copying them out from a piece of paper so tried to just provide the most important ones. Here are some more:

Neu 2.53 (10^9/L) 2 - 7
Lym 1.94 (10^9/L) 0.8 - 4
Mon 0.32 (10^9/L) 0.12 - 1
Eos 0.08 (10^9/L) 0.02 - 0.5
Bas 0.03 (10^9/L) 0 - 0.1

If there's anything else I've missed it's probably on here. Her temps and pulse are enviable - much better than mine. She's 37.1 - 37.4 axial throughout the day and resting pulse is 80+. Not sure why she has this oedema and hemosiderin issue.

Thanks for helping btw, I was thinking I would get no replies.

 

[yerrag]

For a veggan she eats surprisingly few vegetables too so probably doesn't have a problem with non-heme iron. But iron would certainly fit with hemosiderin. We cook only with coconut oil but if she gets a takeaway which she is partial to, it's gonna have junk oils, so I try to limit that. Potatoes, carrots, coriander, spring onions, eggs and long grain white rice would be what she eats the most of.

Ok sure, there are loads on the report but I'm copying them out from a piece of paper so tried to just provide the most important ones. Here are some more:

Neu 2.53 (10^9/L) 2 - 7
Lym 1.94 (10^9/L) 0.8 - 4
Mon 0.32 (10^9/L) 0.12 - 1
Eos 0.08 (10^9/L) 0.02 - 0.5
Bas 0.03 (10^9/L) 0 - 0.1

If there's anything else I've missed it's probably on here. Her temps and pulse are enviable - much better than mine. She's 37.1 - 37.4 axial throughout the day and resting pulse is 80+. Not sure why she has this oedema and hemosiderin issue.

Thanks for helping btw, I was thinking I would get no replies.

Glad to help.

Her wbc and differentials are also looking very good. Optimal as well. Negatives: her wbc is just slightly below the optimal range. And her monocytes on high range. She doesn't have internal low-level microbial infections. If I have to check something, I'd look at her gut health. How is her gut health? Is it high on endotoxins due to large presence of gut bacteria. High endotoxins could translocate internally and cause inflammation, which may be related to her slightly high temperature. High endotoxin could keep the immune system on a heightened state of alertness and raise the temperature. You mentioned a temp higher than 37C that appears to be a regular occurrence.

I think that with blood that nice, she is spared from infections.

It's also good you're not cooking with PUFAs. I hope gettings takeaways is not too often, given they're likely to use PUFAs.

 

[Wen]

Her wbc and differentials are also looking very good. Optimal as well. Negatives: her wbc is just slightly below the optimal range. And her monocytes on high range. She doesn't have internal low-level microbial infections. If I have to check something, I'd look at her gut health. How is her gut health? Is it high on endotoxins due to large presence of gut bacteria. High endotoxins could translocate internally and cause inflammation, which may be related to her slightly high temperature. High endotoxin could keep the immune system on a heightened state of alertness and raise the temperature.

Her gut health is probably not so good since she often has a stomach ache. She recently started carrot salads and the long cooked button mushrooms so maybe that will help.

You mentioned a temp higher than 37C that appears to be a regular occurrence.

Is that not ideal?

 

[yerrag]

Her gut health is probably not so good since she often has a stomach ache. She recently started carrot salads and the long cooked button mushrooms so maybe that will help.

Is that not ideal?

Since her gut is not in top shape, there is the chance she has endotoxins that translocate to the blood stream. Endotoxins can be a constant stressor that keeps the immune system primed, and that could increase body temperatures. The other possibility is that she is hyperthyroid, but I'll go first with the first possibility.

Aside from eating carrots, you can try a teaspoon each day of activated charcoal to help get rid of endotoxins. I think some coconut oil also will help, but I prefer to have grated mature coconut flesh as it allows the oil to get past the small intestine without being absorbed, and with the coconut oil being released in the colon, more gut bacteria can be eliminated.

I think that some biofilm busters would help as well, such as erythritol, lactoferrin, and chitosan; together with use of copper acetate (in capsules, which you can encapsulate yourself) - as copper acetate has a horrible taste. This would help wipe out the anerobic bacteria hiding behind the biofilms in the gut linings.

 

[Wen]

Since her gut is not in top shape, there is the chance she has endotoxins that translocate to the blood stream. Endotoxins can be a constant stressor that keeps the immune system primed, and that could increase body temperatures. The other possibility is that she is hyperthyroid, but I'll go first with the first possibility.

Aside from eating carrots, you can try a teaspoon each day of activated charcoal to help get rid of endotoxins. I think some coconut oil also will help, but I prefer to have grated mature coconut flesh as it allows the oil to get past the small intestine without being absorbed, and with the coconut oil being released in the colon, more gut bacteria can be eliminated.

I think that some biofilm busters would help as well, such as erythritol, lactoferrin, and chitosan; together with use of copper acetate (in capsules, which you can encapsulate yourself) - as copper acetate has a horrible taste. This would help wipe out the anerobic bacteria hiding behind the biofilms in the gut linings.

We have activated charcoal but only take it now and again, so I'll increase intake of that. I think you could be right about endotoxins. The only thing I'm still confused on is the temperature, I thought that was the ideal temperature Ray Peat recommends. What should her temperature be then?

 

[yerrag]

We have activated charcoal but only take it now and again, so I'll increase intake of that. I think you could be right about endotoxins. The only thing I'm still confused on is the temperature, I thought that was the ideal temperature Ray Peat recommends. What should her temperature be then?

37°C

 

[yerrag]

@Wen

It is hard for anyone much less me to know the state of his gut. It's either you have perceivable gut issues or no. I didn't think I had gut issues, but after taking some supplements and drugs to treat something else deeper, in my blood stream, I noticed noteworthy improvements in my gut. And I learned a few things about it. Mind you, I had to begin with no issues with constipation, don't recall having any tummy ache, and I didn't and still don't have flatulence issues. The only significant thing I did since Peating gut-wise was to minimize on intake of soluble fibers.

But this alone, eliminating soluble fibers as much as I could, made my bowels no-smell. Surprising. My takeaway from this is that all that fiber breeds microbes, and that creates smell poo.

Further down, I had to take supplements and drugs to deal with a suspected microbial infection in my blood vessels. This is what I consider suspected, because doctors are unable to probe internal blood vessels so I had to deduce that there was infection. This kind of infection isn't considered life-threatening, so no regular tests are available that would detect these, especially as they are anaerobic and stem from oral periodontal issues. From taking these substances and from observing the effects, I would learn more about its side effects (good though) on my gut.

The immediate improvement I saw was that my stools became thinner, and I think it's because it's not as waterlogged as before where it easily smudges and I would need plenty of toilet paper to wipe. This is what's called a ghost wipe and I've always assumed a smudgy wipe is normal and nothing I can do about. I figure that the reason the form of the stools changed was that more of the gut stew was being absorbed back by the colon into blood - because the gut stew had become cleaner and that it passes muster for being resorbed back into blood. The stew would container mostly water, but also other metabolites and minerals that would still be useful, potassium being one example.

In the process of taking these substances to reduce microbes in the gut, I would from time to time experience diarrhea. Rather than reflexively view it as a bad sign and to cause me to abort the intake of these substances, I began to see that as a sign that the supplements/drugs are working. They are busting the biofilm and penetrating into areas protected by the biofilm, and killing bugs and releasing endotoxins. They may also be releasing bacteria hidden in the biofilm and making them planktonic, which means they are mixed in with the gut stew. This would make the stew unresorbable by the very picky gut walls and the only way to go for the gut stew was to be discharged through the anus. And this is how diarrhea would happen.

So, having an idea of this, I would take a teaspoon of activated charcoal each time this happens. I would see the diarrhea being resolved, if not by one intake of AC, it would take 2 servings. With this in mind, I would advise only taking AC when needed. And usually when diarrhea happens due to the biofilm action occurring.

Going back to the substances recommended for reducing the microbial load on the gut, please take all of them concurrently as it will make sure that the biofilm is busted, and that anaerobic bacteria hilding under the biofilm is destroyed. A lot of times this biofilm is left untouched, and the anaerobic survivng while the planktonic bacteeria is wiped out results in dysbiosis, where bad bacteria will come to dominate the gut microbial ecosystem.

You will have an orderly restructuring of your gut microbiome where a smaller microbiome results, which is able to serve the body better. With a smaller gut population of microbes, you will have less endotoxins being produced. There will be balance. There's no need of wiping out selectively bacteria . Just a smaller but more manageable microbiome is what's needed.

 

[Wen]

Aside from eating carrots, you can try a teaspoon each day of activated charcoal to help get rid of endotoxins. I think some coconut oil also will help, but I prefer to have grated mature coconut flesh as it allows the oil to get past the small intestine without being absorbed, and with the coconut oil being released in the colon, more gut bacteria can be eliminated.

But as I understand it, it's the grated carrots themselves that allows the coconut oil to get further on in your digestive system?

37°C

OK but it's can't be exactly 37 all the time, surely it has to sometimes be slightly lower or slightly higher?

Going back to the substances recommended for reducing the microbial load on the gut, please take all of them concurrently as it will make sure that the biofilm is busted, and that anaerobic bacteria hilding under the biofilm is destroyed. A lot of times this biofilm is left untouched, and the anaerobic survivng while the planktonic bacteeria is wiped out results in dysbiosis, where bad bacteria will come to dominate the gut microbial ecosystem.

Yes you mention erythritol, lactoferrin, and chitosan, I never heard of these. I see them available to buy all as separate supplements. I trust it would be best to find each one all in powder form?

Your story is interesting, amazing how you managed to solve a problem like that.

Oh I forgot to mention one other thing, she has another issue which is she sleeps on average about 11 hours....although I do too but that's another story.

 

[yerrag]

as I understand it, it's the carrot salad itself that allows the coconut oil to get further on in your digestive system?

Not as well as grated nature coconut flesh. The oil is in the flesh and isn't easily extracted by the small intestine.

OK but it's can't be exactly 37 all the time, surely it has to sometimes be slightly lower or slightly higher?

It's not constant, rising from around 36.5 waking up and going up to 37 for me. It would range. from 36.9 to 37.2 but usually stays at 37. But when you're ranging from 37.1 to 37.4, it just raises some red flags. Red flags tell me it's not something to ignore.

you mention erythritol, lactoferrin, and chitosan, I never heard of these. I see them available to buy all as separate supplements. I trust it would be best to find each one all in powder form?

Yes, except for lactoferrin, which come in capsule firm. I like the one from Life Extension.

Your story is interesting, amazing how you managed to solve a problem like that.

Funny as well. Since I can't fix problems I set out fixing but along the way other things are improved. Didn't set out improving my gut but the gut gets fixed as oral intake is the usual route.

 

[Wen]

Not as well as grated nature coconut flesh. The oil is in the flesh and isn't easily extracted by the small intestine.

Oh right I see, ok I'll have to try that.

It's not constant, rising from around 36.5 waking up and going up to 37 for me. It would range. from 36.9 to 37.2 but usually stays at 37. But when you're ranging from 37.1 to 37.4, it just raises some red flags. Red flags tell me it's not something to ignore.

OK yeah it is always on the high side.

Any thoughts on the long sleep time? I edited that into my post later so not sure whether you saw it or not. She not only sleeps at least 11 hours but wakes feeling unrefreshed.

 

[yerrag]

Oh right I see, ok I'll have to try that.

OK yeah it is always on the high side.

Any thoughts on the long sleep time? I edited that into my post later so not sure whether you saw it or not. She not only sleeps at least 11 hours but wakes feeling unrefreshed.

I have no idea on the long sleep times. I assume she doesn't snore and sleeps straight hours without waking up in between, otherwise you would have mentioned it. I used to wake up not feeling refreshed, but don't recall how I got out of it.

Another aspect to look into is her acid-base balance.

 

[Wen]

I have no idea on the long sleep times. I assume she doesn't snore and sleeps straight hours without waking up in between, otherwise you would have mentioned it. I used to wake up not feeling refreshed, but don't recall how I got out of it.

Yes she doesn't snore and doesn't normally wake up during the night much. Maybe you got out of it by fixing your digestion issues.