Help me understand Calcium and Coagulation?

[June]

I’m having issues understanding this study. May be because I am in a stressed state. But does this article say Calcium is an anticogulant?

Acute effects of calcium supplements on blood pressure and blood coagulation: secondary analysis of a randomised controlled trial in post-menopausal women - PubMed

Recent evidence suggests that Ca supplements increase the risk of cardiovascular events, but the mechanism(s) by which this occurs is uncertain. In a study primarily assessing the effects of various Ca supplements on blood Ca levels, we also investigated the effects of Ca supplements on blood...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I may have made my bleeding issue worse with calcium. The only way i think I can reverse this is the Mk7 Vitamin K2 i have at home.

 

[June]

Maybe i’m wrong maybe Calcium was helping me clot but the K1 i was taking was stealing it from the blood and placing it elsewhere? All i know is that after taking them both, every tissue stiffened up. I ended up with stiff fingers, stiff achilles heel and stiff back muscles..what is happening?

Is my problem the opposite of what everyone is trying to achieve? Maybe it is low calcium in blood after all? I have low vitamin D and do not consume calcium/dairy due to allergies. Is vitamin k1 pulling it out of blood since i dont have calcium reserves? But why did my body become stiff? I do not hv a clotting issue according to my INR.

Will my saving grace actually be Vitamin D with calcium??

 

[Kimster]

I’m having issues understanding this study. May be because I am in a stressed state. But does this article say Calcium is an anticogulant?

Acute effects of calcium supplements on blood pressure and blood coagulation: secondary analysis of a randomised controlled trial in post-menopausal women - PubMed

Recent evidence suggests that Ca supplements increase the risk of cardiovascular events, but the mechanism(s) by which this occurs is uncertain. In a study primarily assessing the effects of various Ca supplements on blood Ca levels, we also investigated the effects of Ca supplements on blood...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I may have made my bleeding issue worse with calcium. The only way i think I can reverse this is the Mk7 Vitamin K2 i have at home.

This Naturopathic Doc from Canada wrote this book:

Vitamin K2 and the Calcium Paradox: How a Little-Known Vitamin Could Save Your Life​

by Kate Rhéaume-Bleue BSc ND, Virginia Wolf, et al.
Amazon product ASIN 0062320041View: https://www.amazon.com/Vitamin-K2-Calcium-Paradox-Little-Known/dp/0062320041/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2ZQOE3NNYIZSH&keywords=The+Calcium+Controversy&qid=1702476771&s=books&sprefix=the+calcium+controversy%2Cstripbooks%2C118&sr=1-1

$19.99

perhaps it could help you. I've heard her on an interview and she' sounds quite knowledgeable with papers & research to back it all up.

 

[onechoice]

Maybe i’m wrong maybe Calcium was helping me clot but the K1 i was taking was stealing it from the blood and placing it elsewhere? All i know is that after taking them both, every tissue stiffened up. I ended up with stiff fingers, stiff achilles heel and stiff back muscles..what is happening?

Is my problem the opposite of what everyone is trying to achieve? Maybe it is low calcium in blood after all? I have low vitamin D and do not consume calcium/dairy due to allergies. Is vitamin k1 pulling it out of blood since i dont have calcium reserves? But why did my body become stiff? I do not hv a clotting issue according to my INR.

Will my saving grace actually be Vitamin D with calcium??

of course these studies are isolated mineral studies, and calcium is usually complexed/combined with phosphorus. they also seem to make assumptions there in that little paragraph... look to the old literature where it states that phosphorus deficiency increases blood viscosity. I get my nutritional information from the pioneers in nutrition such as Dr. Royal Lee.

 

[GTW]

15 years ago I had osteoporosis.
I was in a hypometabolic state sequel to Lyme symptoms. 60 year old male.
Body has huge calcium stores and adequate supply from diet.
I felt that exercise and mg glycinate\taurinate would turn it around. But to exercise I first needed topical T. A reasonable doctor complied.
It worked.

 

[Jonk]

I ended up with stiff fingers, stiff achilles heel and stiff back muscles..what is happening?

Have you tried taking calcium and magnesium together? Same with vitamin D. If you're low in vitamin D your thyroid probably isn't working properly -> low co2/magnesium wasting -> stiffness. I literally have to take them at the same time since I probably can't retain magnesium at all. I also need very high doses magnesium (1 gram mag carbonate at a time).

 

[June]

So It's been 2 days at 1000-2000mg coral calcium. While it did change colour of my blood, it causes heart palps, painful back muslces and some edema in my left leg. I was so tired after the dose I had to take 400mg to possibly undo it. So maybe my strategy is not to raise calcium in this manner. Maybe I need to raise it via Vitamin D and then take magnesium at night. Anyone know if Vitamin D and magnesium should be taken together. Should it also be taken with K2?

This Naturopathic Doc from Canada wrote this book:

Vitamin K2 and the Calcium Paradox: How a Little-Known Vitamin Could Save Your Life​

by Kate Rhéaume-Bleue BSc ND, Virginia Wolf, et al.
Amazon product ASIN 0062320041View: https://www.amazon.com/Vitamin-K2-Calcium-Paradox-Little-Known/dp/0062320041/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2ZQOE3NNYIZSH&keywords=The+Calcium+Controversy&qid=1702476771&s=books&sprefix=the+calcium+controversy%2Cstripbooks%2C118&sr=1-1

$19.99

perhaps it could help you. I've heard her on an interview and she' sounds quite knowledgeable with papers & research to back it all up.

Thanks I will take a look. It's too bad I only have K1 on hand. I will order some Mk4 but it will take days to reach me.

of course these studies are isolated mineral studies, and calcium is usually complexed/combined with phosphorus. they also seem to make assumptions there in that little paragraph... look to the old literature where it states that phosphorus deficiency increases blood viscosity. I get my nutritional information from the pioneers in nutrition such as Dr. Royal Lee.

Yeah calcium was definitely not successful alone. The only thing it did was the side effects above, but it gave me sound sleep and I was able to wake up with more energy. That was it. But no point since I'm in so much pain from taking it. Don't know why it involves my spinal muscles/nerves. Does one need to combine phosphorus if they eat plenty of meat. I'm a big meat eater with green veggies for meals. I don't consume milk, cheese, yogurts...

15 years ago I had osteoporosis.
I was in a hypometabolic state sequel to Lyme symptoms. 60 year old male.
Body has huge calcium stores and adequate supply from diet.
I felt that exercise and mg glycinate\taurinate would turn it around. But to exercise I first needed topical T. A reasonable doctor complied.
It worked.

Lyme sufferer here too. But my symptoms weren't ever from Lyme, It all started when I withdrew from SSRIS/BENZOS. The problem with taking magnesium on it's own is that it can potentially cause more bleeding. Since it will lower the calcium needed for blood clotting. I am waiting on progesterone but the thin consistency of my blood was worrisome. I don't eat much calcium products..so I don't understand why I am reacting this way to calcium.

Have you tried taking calcium and magnesium together? Same with vitamin D. If you're low in vitamin D your thyroid probably isn't working properly -> low co2/magnesium wasting -> stiffness. I literally have to take them at the same time since I probably can't retain magnesium at all. I also need very high doses magnesium (1 gram mag carbonate at a time).

so should the ratio of magnesium to calcium be higher? I noticed even after my 400mg magnesium dose I still have a heavy chest, hard to take in breath. My stiffness in back is the huge sore point. I am curious if I should just forgo the calcium for now and just take Vitamin D and then magnesium. Somehow I want to incorporate Vitamin K but I only have K1 on hand.

 

[LucH]

I noticed even after my 400mg magnesium dose I still have a heavy chest, hard to take in breath.

What kind of magnesium?
Bisglycinate Mg or glycerophosphate Mg. I take half dose (1/2 of 2.5 gr) of bisglycinate, preferably with food. 2x/day. more often if stress (afterwards, no anticipation).

To understand the interaction between liposoluble vitamins
Simplified explanation of the interaction between vitamins A D3 and K2:

Nutritionists talk about vitamin K as if there is only one type! We know the role of vitamin K1 (phytomenadione) for its role in coagulation. It is mainly found in green vegetables. Vitamin K2 (menaquinone) is less well known and has no RDA recommended by health authorities! We can convert K1 into K2 but it is random and notoriously insufficient. K2 plays a key role in the activation of hormones that regulate calcium metabolism: osteocalcin, which is involved in the mineralization of bone matrix, and matrix Gla protein (MGP), which protects soft tissues against calcification. The role of vitamin K2 is not limited to these functions alone. Here, it is much more than a cofactor because vitamin K2 is the substance that allows dependent proteins A and D to activate/come to life. While vitamins A and D act as signaling molecules, telling cells to produce certain proteins, vitamin K2 activates these proteins, giving them the physical ability to bind calcium.

Note: beta-carotene is not a problem if coming from fruits and vegetables (5 – 10 mg).
Supplement of beta-carotene would be a problem for smokers (in a study often cited) but there are biases in this study (wrong parameters).

Note on calcium supplement (Phosphate calcium) (ratio between 1/1 and 1/2.2)
200-250 mg is optimal. Max 500 mg if taken with adequate cofactors. RP says 720 mg Ca is optimal. I target 800 – 850 mg Ca (mainly from food). Not less than 550 – 600 mg, otherwise bone resorption will take place to provide enough material. Of course we have to take the alkaline ratio into account (acido-basic balance) (mainly K Mg Ca Fe >< P S).

If we take a supplement Ca above these parameters, Ca will be deposited in the arteries and joints, on the muscles…

Note on K2: I take one drop K2 MK4 (1 000 mcg) with enough fat. 35 gr fat is optimal. I try to get 20 gr fat minimum at breakfast. Afterwards, at lunch I take 2000 ou 5000 UI D3, depending on the time of year (5 000 from November to April). I target 45 ng/ml active d3.

Once a week, I take 10 000 UI retinol palmitate if I haven’t eaten chicken liver (2 or 3 livers lightly roasted with a small onion, and afterwards cooked in 240 ml water, bouillon embellished with 1/2 tsp of spices and a hint of sea salt.

Excerpt:
Interactions between vitamins A, D, E, and K
Nutritional Adjuncts to the Fat-Soluble Vitamins

Summary
• Vitamins A, D, and K2 interact synergistically to support immune health, provide for adequate growth, support strong bones and teeth, and protect soft tissues from calcification.
• Magnesium is required for the production of all proteins, including those that interact with vitamins A and D.
• Vitamins A and D support the absorption of zinc and zinc supports the absorption of all the fat-soluble vitamins.
• Many of the proteins involved in vitamin A metabolism and the receptors for both vitamins A and D only function correctly in the presence of zinc.
• Dietary fat is necessary for the absorption of fat-soluble vitamins.
• Vitamin K2 activates proteins by adding carbon dioxide to them. We can increase carbon dioxide production by consuming carbohydrates, exercising, and maintaining robust thyroid status.
• The fat-soluble vitamins thus interact not only with each other, but with other nutrients and metabolic factors as well. This level of complexity should urge us to exercise caution when interpreting scientific research, and to cooperate with the wisdom of nature by obtaining vitamins through nutrient-dense foods.

Throughout the twentieth century, we viewed the fat-soluble vitamins in isolation from one another. Researchers relegated vitamin K to blood coagulation, and ignored vitamin K2 entirely because it is present in such small quantities in the diet. Vitamins A and D each fell in and out of favour, the popularity of one always rising at the expense of the other. Ignoring the forest to study one tree at a time, the concept of synergy eluded us.

In order to truly understand the fat-soluble vitamins, however, we must understand that vitamins A, D, and K cooperate synergistically not only with each other, but also with essential minerals like magnesium and zinc, with dietary fat, and with key metabolic factors like carbon dioxide and thyroid hormone.

Link: bone remodeling and modeling (role of cells osteoclasts for resorption; cells osteoblasts have the role to remodel new bones to repair damage)

View: https://youtu.be/Ux7xsXihQnY

 

[Jonk]

so should the ratio of magnesium to calcium be higher? I noticed even after my 400mg magnesium dose I still have a heavy chest, hard to take in breath. My stiffness in back is the huge sore point. I am curious if I should just forgo the calcium for now and just take Vitamin D and then magnesium. Somehow I want to incorporate Vitamin K but I only have K1 on hand.

I mostly go by feel and my symptoms tell me I need magnesium when taking either calcium or vitamin D. And I need to take the magnesium at the same time or before.

I don't think magnesium and calcium negates each other completely but they might effect each others absorption, so who knows how much of each I'm actually absorbing... I also take them with food. The ratio is also individual and I think experimenting yourself is key. People react differently to different sources, for example some people swear by mag oxide while others think it's useless. Also make sure you don't have any bad excipients in the supplement. I like pure magnesium carbonate powder, it's cheap and relatively high amounts of elemental magnesium (~32 %). Mag glycinate only have about 14.1 % elemental magnesium so the 400 mg is only about 56 mg actual magnesium. I take about 2 grams magnesium carbonate which comes to 640 mg actual magnesium.

 

[LucH]

I take about 2 grams magnesium carbonate which comes to 640 mg actual magnesium.

whatever the amount of magnesium element, if the bioavailability is weak!. Carbonate Mg is 40% Mg element >< Bisglycinate Mg is 16% Mg bioavailable.
But bioavailable doesn't mean you're going to assimilate the whole stuff, and where you need it.

Which Mg is the more bioavailable?
Some examples of the best forms of magnesium:
• Associated magnesium and taurine bisglycinate
• Association of malic, taurine and magnesium acid
https://www.julienvenesson.fr/comment-le-magnesium-controle-niveaux-de-vitamin-D/

Form	Mg content​	Biodisponibility & assimilation​	Comment
Mg bisglycinate Mg glycerophosphate Mg citrate Mg chloride Mg carbonate Mg hydroxide Mg oxide Mg Malate	16 % 12,4 % 16 % 12 % 40 % 41,5 % 60,3 % 15.42 %	Very high High Very high High *1 Weak Weak Weak Very good	Preference Second choice (kidneys!) Free timing. Lithiasis prevention Acidifying. Laxative. Free timing - Known as from marine origin. Laxative Fibro; moderate laxative effect.

*1 Nigari is mg chloride. Acidifying.
To facilitate the assimilation of Mg, there is often “a cofactor”: taurine serves as a carrier, vitamin B6 fixes the Mg inside the cell.

Which form?
In 1st position, a chelated shape, preferably Mg's bisglycinate (versus glycerophosphate). Then the magnesium citrate which is well assimilated by the body. The magnesium bisglycinate is an excellent choice for a food supplement, it has a high magnesium content (16%). The glycine magnesium link (amino acid) allows it to be much better assimilated to the intestinal mucosa. In addition, this form is very well tolerated by the body and makes it possible to avoid the side effects of other forms on intestinal transit (diarrhea). In addition, glycine is a calming neurotransmitter amino acid, which strengthens the "anti-stress" effect of magnesium bisglycinate.
Source:
Comment choisir le bon Magnésium ? - Physionorm™

 

[Jonk]

whatever the amount of magnesium element, if the bioavailability is weak!. Carbonate Mg is 40% Mg element >< Bisglycinate Mg is 16% Mg bioavailable.
But bioavailable doesn't mean you're going to assimilate the whole stuff, and where you need it.

Which Mg is the more bioavailable?
Some examples of the best forms of magnesium:
• Associated magnesium and taurine bisglycinate
• Association of malic, taurine and magnesium acid
https://www.julienvenesson.fr/comment-le-magnesium-controle-niveaux-de-vitamin-D/

Form	Mg content​	Biodisponibility & assimilation​	Comment
Mg bisglycinate Mg glycerophosphate Mg citrate Mg chloride Mg carbonate Mg hydroxide Mg oxide Mg Malate	16 % 12,4 % 16 % 12 % 40 % 41,5 % 60,3 % 15.42 %	Very high High Very high High *1 Weak Weak Weak Very good	Preference Second choice (kidneys!) Free timing. Lithiasis prevention Acidifying. Laxative. Free timing - Known as from marine origin. Laxative Fibro; moderate laxative effect.

*1 Nigari is mg chloride. Acidifying.
To facilitate the assimilation of Mg, there is often “a cofactor”: taurine serves as a carrier, vitamin B6 fixes the Mg inside the cell.

Which form?
In 1st position, a chelated shape, preferably Mg's bisglycinate (versus glycerophosphate). Then the magnesium citrate which is well assimilated by the body. The magnesium bisglycinate is an excellent choice for a food supplement, it has a high magnesium content (16%). The glycine magnesium link (amino acid) allows it to be much better assimilated to the intestinal mucosa. In addition, this form is very well tolerated by the body and makes it possible to avoid the side effects of other forms on intestinal transit (diarrhea). In addition, glycine is a calming neurotransmitter amino acid, which strengthens the "anti-stress" effect of magnesium bisglycinate.
Source:
Comment choisir le bon Magnésium ? - Physionorm™

You might be right! But I have read there can be some differences among people. One case study showed a woman only raising her levels with magnesium oxide. They can also be absorbed along the intestines even if slower.

 

[LucH]

One case study showed a woman only raising her levels with magnesium oxide. They can also be absorbed along the intestines ...

Yes, indeed. I Know that.
Magnesium oxide is mostly indicated in the treatment of migraines, but studies suggest that it is badly absorbed, proportionally. But it's cheaper to produce.
Mg oxide binds to hydrochloric acid of the stomach to form magnesium identical to Nigari (Mg chloride). Nigari is 60 % acid (a strong acid) and 40 % basifying (Mg).
Oxyde de magnésium : Bienfaits, Efficacité, Utilisation et Danger (in French)
Note: At the end of the process, Mg oxide is well absorbed but only 12% of the whole taken amount.
So 60.3 % Mg element is a illusion.

 

[June]

So this got even worse. I took magnesium glycinate and it made my bleeding thinner. I stopped the Vitamin D+Calcium supplement day before I tried Magnesium. Stopped after one dose of Magnesium due to change in blood consistency.
Stupidly thought I’d try A2 milk to get my calcium in. While it did help my bleeding and coagulation (from calcium or progesterone in milk?), I noticed after each cup, i’d find it hard to breathe. Like clock work, half an hour after drinking and then lasting for hours until my next cup at night. I did this for last 2 days and the chest heaviness became so unbearable, I skipped last nights cup. I thought it would dissipate but im still struggling to breathe this morning. I looked at the back label of the A2 milk and it lists Vitamin D. I dont do well on the Vitamin D+ calcium combo. Why is this happening? My test results don’t indicate I have a hypercalcemia issue….

Parathyroid Hormone [PTH] Intact 4.3 1.6 - 6.9 pmol/L

Calcium 2.35 2.15-2.60 mmol/L

Is my issue needing K2? Or is it beyond that? Why does Vitamin D have this effect on me? Which food item will give me a generous amount of magnesium so I can test without supplementing? Orange juice? Need to focus on undoing this breathing issue without aggravating my bleeding/thin blood. I was thinking of trying cheese instead to avoid the Vit D added in milk?

@LucH which MK4 drops do you use? I cannot find them in drops. They mostly come in capsules from what I see.

 

[June]

According to Dr.Berg high calcium can cause Asthma symptoms..


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wFjuHpnCrZA

 

[BearWithMe]

Have you tried taking calcium and magnesium together? Same with vitamin D. If you're low in vitamin D your thyroid probably isn't working properly -> low co2/magnesium wasting -> stiffness. I literally have to take them at the same time since I probably can't retain magnesium at all. I also need very high doses magnesium (1 gram mag carbonate at a time).

I take about 2 grams magnesium carbonate which comes to 640 mg actual magnesium.

This is super interesting, thanks for sharing!

What is your total daily magnesium intake, including food sources? Any side effects from so much magnesium?

 

[Jonk]

This is super interesting, thanks for sharing!

What is your total daily magnesium intake, including food sources? Any side effects from so much magnesium?

Thanks, I don't track what I eat at the moment so I'm not sure, and I'm sort of in a mix between being restrictive and trying out eating more freely so it varies a lot. I think I get a lot of magnesium from wheat bran but I have no idea if that's absorbed or not.

No side effects, only one time where I ate way too little that day and I think the magnesium made me even more jittery. I feel like it's making my heart beat faster but it's with zero anxiety and only feels good.

 

[BearWithMe]

Thanks, I don't track what I eat at the moment so I'm not sure, and I'm sort of in a mix between being restrictive and trying out eating more freely so it varies a lot. I think I get a lot of magnesium from wheat bran but I have no idea if that's absorbed or not.

No side effects, only one time where I ate way too little that day and I think the magnesium made me even more jittery. I feel like it's making my heart beat faster but it's with zero anxiety and only feels good.

I started taking 3g of calcium carbonate and 2g of magnesium carbonate daily, mixed together, divided into smaller doses, spread troughout the day. It is the most delicious thing I ever tasted, I must be very deficient I guess? The most significant effect so far is that it makes me calm and happy. But not manic-happy, it is inner happiness with outward calmness. Calcium alone always made me constipated, but magnesium seems to balance out the constipating effect of calcium, so my transit time is actually better than before.

On the first days of supplementation, I was getting some muscle cramps. Increased salt intake fixed the problem.

I'm experimenting with milk-free diet, so I have no significant source of calcium in my diet at the moment. I would not take so much calcium carbonate if I had other sources of calcium in my diet.

 

[Jonk]

I started taking 3g of calcium carbonate and 2g of magnesium carbonate daily, mixed together, divided into smaller doses, spread troughout the day. It is the most delicious thing I ever tasted, I must be very deficient I guess? The most significant effect so far is that it makes me calm and happy. But not manic-happy, it is inner happiness with outward calmness. Calcium alone always made me constipated, but magnesium seems to balance out the constipating effect of calcium, so my transit time is actually better than before.

On the first days of supplementation, I was getting some muscle cramps. Increased salt intake fixed the problem.

I'm experimenting with milk-free diet, so I have no significant source of calcium in my diet at the moment. I would not take so much calcium carbonate if I had other sources of calcium in my diet.

That's great! Seems to parallell my experience with the two. Salt is also a great tool. If I have excessive mental chatter a teaspoon of salt in some water makes my mind calm and relaxed.

 

[BearWithMe]

So this got even worse. I took magnesium glycinate and it made my bleeding thinner. I stopped the Vitamin D+Calcium supplement day before I tried Magnesium. Stopped after one dose of Magnesium due to change in blood consistency.
Stupidly thought I’d try A2 milk to get my calcium in. While it did help my bleeding and coagulation (from calcium or progesterone in milk?), I noticed after each cup, i’d find it hard to breathe. Like clock work, half an hour after drinking and then lasting for hours until my next cup at night. I did this for last 2 days and the chest heaviness became so unbearable, I skipped last nights cup. I thought it would dissipate but im still struggling to breathe this morning. I looked at the back label of the A2 milk and it lists Vitamin D. I dont do well on the Vitamin D+ calcium combo. Why is this happening? My test results don’t indicate I have a hypercalcemia issue….

Parathyroid Hormone [PTH] Intact 4.3 1.6 - 6.9 pmol/L

Calcium 2.35 2.15-2.60 mmol/L

Is my issue needing K2? Or is it beyond that? Why does Vitamin D have this effect on me? Which food item will give me a generous amount of magnesium so I can test without supplementing? Orange juice? Need to focus on undoing this breathing issue without aggravating my bleeding/thin blood. I was thinking of trying cheese instead to avoid the Vit D added in milk?

@LucH which MK4 drops do you use? I cannot find them in drops. They mostly come in capsules from what I see.

IdeaLabs have a product called Kuinone.

Parmigiano Reggiano is one of the foods highest in vitamin K2, contains bioavailable calcium balanced with other nutrients, and no toxic additives.