Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[Amazoniac]

Retinoid is not a misnomer:
- The Discovery of the Visual Function of Vitamin A
- George Wald - Research Gate

I had a former co-worker with a mutlicolor tattoo, and she happened to mention one day that the yellow part ALWAYS got sunburned when she went to the beach. I told her that actually makes sense, as certain color inks would absorb the opposite light, so the yellow part of her tat was likely absorbing more UV than other parts.

This is interesting, I never made the tattoo connection. I wonder how people who have almost their entire body covered are affected. But black means that everything is being absorbed, the problem is if it prevents light from passing through. Something about melanin allows red light to pass.

Grant mentions on his blog that a UV light can inspect areas for carotene.

- The Role of Carotenoids in Human Skin
- Oral Photoprotection: Effective Agents and Potential Candidates
Did he really use 'inspect'?

I'm starting to swap out those beta carotene foods (like orange juice)

Good reason to exclude oranges. According to Cron-o-meter, one cup of fresh orange juice provides 80 mcg of b-carotene, this means that [. . . Brewing provitamin A content of foods . . .] various vegetables and fruits are out of question, but maybe also some dairy products such as cheeses and ice creams, however you can source these from animals that weren't fed grass.

--
I forgot to include this:

The neurotoxic effects of vitamin A and retinoids

Spoiler: Figure Ein

 

[Steven Bussinger]

Yep. I think Peat also mentions that beta carotene can itself be problematic (while also recommending carrots to cleanse the bowel). The more I've been thinking about it, the more I can see several potential issues with Vitamin A, and levels even the "average" person gets, possibly being-

1. Straight up A Toxicity
2. Skewed D to A ratio
3. Other skewed cofactors (like k2)
4. Beta Carotene Toxicity
5. Toxic A metabolites, like Accuatne and Retin-A
6. Increased sensitivity to UV and/or blue light (again, maybe a carotene issue_
7. Lack of protective proteins (like RBP) for Retinyl Palmitate, in vitamins and fortification

Regarding how Peat's dietary recommendations play out, OJ is also a significant source of carotenes. And the raw carrot should be peeled, thus removing a lot of the beta carotene in the skin. However, the rest of the carrot is still clearly very orange.

I would add low thyroid to the list of conditions. As has been discussed several times in this thread, vitamin A competes with thyroid hormone for the same protein, and Peat has said how low thyroid people should not take large amounts of vitamin A, in either form.

 

[Steven Bussinger]

I havent even begun to read his books. I want to go through the literature myself because Im sure Grant got some stuff wrong. The stuff I'm seeing written by scientists I wish was talked about more by WAPF and the ray peat forum.

This will never get anywhere with the WAPF people unless the rhetoric and sensationalism is severely toned down. The concept that liver is a sacred food of the "primitive" peoples that Price studied is a cornerstone if not THE cornerstone of WAPF.

By providing more complex interactions (tankasnowgod's list), we don't have to place the blame 100% on vitamin A. Also, as I explained before, we have changed the vitamin A landscape. "The modern world is screwed up" is an easy sell to pretty much any alternative health demographic.

Grant doesn't have the perspective, humility, or curiosity, that many of us do here. He hasn't been slowly journeying through several different perspectives over the years. It sounds like he went from mainstream advice straight to demonizing vitamin A. There is definitely something to his theory, but if you want other people to understand you, you have to put it in their terms. Grant does not sound like the person who is going to do that.

 

[InChristAlone]

Expanding on the beta carotene idea a bit....

I had a former co-worker with a mutlicolor tattoo, and she happened to mention one day that the yellow part ALWAYS got sunburned when she went to the beach. I told her that actually makes sense, as certain color inks would absorb the opposite light, so the yellow part of her tat was likely absorbing more UV than other parts.

Since carotene can gather in callouses and such, it would make sense that it could be doing the same thing. In fact, Grant mentions on his blog that a UV light can inspect areas for carotene.

Personally, I'm starting to swap out those beta carotene foods (like orange juice) for red/purple/blue ones, like raspberries, grape juice, cherry cider, and such. I always remember hearing about how those purple potatoes were supposed to be really healthy (from the purple compounds) back in my paleo days. I think grapes and blackberries have the same compounds. It'd be real funny if those compounds were basically a natural methylene blue.

Yeah I swapped out orange juice for grape juice after my last big health crash. OJ gave me anxiety. I really really question carotenes especially when vitamin A stores are getting full.

And yeah I agree that there is more to the story than just A is toxic. Glyphosate could be another reason health problems are getting so much worse.

 

[Steven Bussinger]

I think in the Smith/Stone interview on 180D that Smith said stearic acid might be responsible for a lot of the mayhem. To him, the carotenes are more dangerous than retinol. He is really taking the theory and running with it. I need to re-listen to it now that I've read Grant's work.

 

[InChristAlone]

I have since completely cut out dairy, and started relying on gelatin and lean beef for protein. I get sugar from grape juice and coke. I also eat quite a bit of white bread and pasta as I cannot stand white rice.

It is srange, but it seems like this is the silver bullet for me. My seborrheic skin condition is clearing up. I also have an issue that I presume to be either bacterial or fungal in nature judging by my frequently coated tongue. This appears to be improving by the day. Not to be gross, but I noticed weird white strains in my stool, and whatever it is I'm glad my body's getting rid of it.

That is great your skin is better. It is my main reason for testing this out. Peeling scaly skin in my butt crack thats been there 3 yrs. And I know all the principles that could be a cause. The only thing that cleared it up for a time is using my UVB lamp everyday on it. Then it came back with a vengeance but I also was doing liver and even retinyl palmitate around that time.

 

[InChristAlone]

I think in the Smith/Stone interview on 180D that Smith said stearic acid might be responsible for a lot of the mayhem. To him, the carotenes are more dangerous than retinol. He is really taking the theory and running with it. I need to re-listen to it now that I've read Grant's work.

Yeah sounds like Smith wants to write a book eventually about this. I think he will do a much better job than Grant.

 

[Blossom]

I think it makes perfect sense that someone like Grant came up with such an outlandish theory. He’s scientifically oriented yet didn’t have much health or medical dogma to influence him.

Dr. Garrett Smith seems quite genuine. Admittedly I had initially thought that he might just be jumping on the bandwagon and seeing a way to make money but after reading his forum I’m impressed at the work he has put into the topic and made available for free to anyone who chooses to read it. It’s also very big of him to admit that he feels he was mistaken by recommending vitamin A to clients in the past. I think his background, open mindedness and years of clinical experience make him the perfect person to expand on Grant’s theory.

The vitamin A issue reminds me of what Peat has taught us about estrogen. Obviously it’s necessary at certain life stages but there’s definitely more to the story.

From reading one of the research papers that Dr. Smith posted it looks like it’s quite possible that there actually is a group of people who may have an inherited retinol intolerance.

 

[tankasnowgod]

I think it makes perfect sense that someone like Grant came up with such an outlandish theory. He’s scientifically oriented yet didn’t have much health or medical dogma to influence him.

Dr. Garrett Smith seems quite genuine. Admittedly I had initially thought that he might just be jumping on the bandwagon and seeing a way to make money but after reading his forum I’m impressed at the work he has put into the topic and made available for free to anyone who chooses to read it. It’s also very big of him to admit that he feels he was mistaken by recommending vitamin A to clients in the past. I think his background, open mindedness and years of clinical experience make him the perfect person to expand on Grant’s theory.

The vitamin A issue reminds me of what Peat has taught us about estrogen. Obviously it’s necessary at certain life stages but there’s definitely more to the story.

From reading one of the research papers that Dr. Smith posted it looks like it’s quite possible that there actually is a group of people who may have an inherited retinol intolerance.

I also understand the outlandish theory part. It's a double edged sword. That's why I first completely dismissed this thread, thinking that Grant was just floating a completely ridiculous idea. At the same time..... I don't know if he would have gotten near as much attention if he hadn't presented his idea in such an outlandish way. His blog doesn't seem to have that many readers (I think he even joked about the number going from 5 to 10 over a couple years), but it did get the idea discussed here and at 180 Degree Health.

 

[tankasnowgod]

In case anyone is interested, here's a collection of Ray Peat quotes about Beta Carotene on Functional PS-

Carotenemia & Hypothyroidism – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

 

[Blossom]

I also understand the outlandish theory part. It's a double edged sword. That's why I first completely dismissed this thread, thinking that Grant was just floating a completely ridiculous idea. At the same time..... I don't know if he would have gotten near as much attention if he hadn't presented his idea in such an outlandish way. His blog doesn't seem to have that many readers (I think he even joked about the number going from 5 to 10 over a couple years), but it did get the idea discussed here and at 180 Degree Health.

Yeah, I think the typical initial response is to completely dismiss the idea. I probably wouldn't have even read it myself if I hadn't felt obliged to check it out due to mod duties. I don't use the the word outlandish to imply that I think it's ridiculous or anything it's just something that seems completely foreign to common sense at first. I've actually been experimenting with low A myself for 4.5 months.
It seems Grant has no desire at all to be a health guru but sincerely just wants the theory to be explored further. Since no one in conventional medicine or science was really taking him seriously I guess the best way to get his theory out was writing the free ebooks.

 

[J C]

The makeup and structure of the eye is very similar across most species of mammals. The proteins of the eye are also not species specific. The primary nutrients found in, and making up the eye, are proteins, and the B and C vitamins. Of course, we’ve been bamboozled into thinking that only the human eye needs massive amounts of vitamin-A. That’s right, we are supposed to believe that after more than 100 million years of evolution on the planet we humans are the only species that need to supplement with vitamin A to prevent our eyes from self-disintegrating. That, in itself is just so absurd, that it’s almost laughable. Sadly, it’s not laughable because it is a big fat lie that’s at the root cause of our chronic diseases.

Bull****. A decade ago I found myself wondering why the world has lost its luster and color. Everything was becoming greyscale for me. I remembered that Vitamin A was good for the eyes, so I ordered some retinol, 25k IU iirc. I took 2 / day for a week, so 50,000 IU per day. What was greyscale became replaced with such vivid color that I thought I was tripping balls on acid. This psychedelic LSD-like experience continued for about a month, past which point I guess that I simply got used to the new vivid colorful world. I backed off the Vit A supplementation at some point during that, maybe 2 weeks in. Later added Vitamin D in balance.

That's an anecdote. Non-anecdotally isn't there a 'golden rice' GMO made specifically to have Vitamin A in it to avoid the whole "kids grow up blind" scenario? That said, usually, the way I understand it, things you need to grow up correctly may not be as important in adulthood. This means that while you won't lose your eyes outright, there is a difference between nutrition-to-build and nutrition-to-maintain.

I have never read about this whole greyscale thing I experienced re: retinol. Anyone else heard of this? I don't think I ever found a name for it, I guess outside of Vitamin A deficiency.

 

[MarcelZD]

That is great your skin is better. It is my main reason for testing this out. Peeling scaly skin in my butt crack thats been there 3 yrs. And I know all the principles that could be a cause. The only thing that cleared it up for a time is using my UVB lamp everyday on it. Then it came back with a vengeance but I also was doing liver and even retinyl palmitate around that time.

Incidentally the only thing that would significantly improve my skin condition used to be sunlight and tanning - that's why I held such high hopes for Vitamin D for the longest time, only to discover that it did nothing for me.

Grant would probably say that the very light sensitive retinol molecules accumulate in the sebaceous glands, and that UVA/UVB rays would destroy them.

An alternative non-Genereuxian explanation might simply be improved immunity due to melanocyte stimulation.

 

[MarcelZD]

This will never get anywhere with the WAPF people unless the rhetoric and sensationalism is severely toned down. The concept that liver is a sacred food of the "primitive" peoples that Price studied is a cornerstone if not THE cornerstone of WAPF.

How do WAPF people explain that liver tastes so bad unless it's processed beyond recognition?

 

[tankasnowgod]

How do WAPF people explain that liver tastes so bad unless it's processed beyond recognition?

This one really depends. There are times I have had regular beef liver, and it tasted amazing. Funny thing, after a few weeks of liver (only once a week)....... I would often start to dread it. I switched over to calf liver a few years ago. Again, it tasted great. Most of the time, in fact. I remember one time, I ate it, I didn't care for it much. Ended up waiting like a month or so, tried it again, and yep, pretty tasty. Recently, I had been dreading it again.

 

[tankasnowgod]

I've actually been experimenting with low A myself for 4.5 months.

Curious, how do you see this diet? As an experiment? A temporary intervention? Or as avoiding Vitamin A for the foreseeable future (extending several years)?

 

[Steven Bussinger]

This one really depends. There are times I have had regular beef liver, and it tasted amazing. Funny thing, after a few weeks of liver (only once a week)....... I would often start to dread it. I switched over to calf liver a few years ago. Again, it tasted great. Most of the time, in fact. I remember one time, I ate it, I didn't care for it much. Ended up waiting like a month or so, tried it again, and yep, pretty tasty. Recently, I had been dreading it again.

I've had similar experiences, but not very often. Usually for raw beef liver. People say chicken liver is relatively tame, but beef has always tasted better to me. I've had a fair amount of pork liver, but beef is easily the most palatable for me. I never ate liver as a child.

 

[Steven Bussinger]

I think Grant discussing the carnivores as unwitting subjects to prove his theory was aimed incorrectly.

Very few carnivores eat exclusively beef. Many eat eggs, fish, shellfish, and organs from time to time. And what do you think they cook in, canola oil? No, butter, tallow, and lard. Their average vitamin A intake is still probably lower than an average day on SAD/SWPL-SAD, though. No skim milk, OJ, or brightly colored veggies.

Rather, I think the carnivore/keto/paleo people are receiving protection by emulsifying the A. Water-soluble A is extremely problematic.

 

[somuch4food]

Rather, I think the carnivore/keto/paleo people are receiving protection by emulsifying the A. Water-soluble A is extremely problematic

He does mention fat offering a certain protection. He also mentions that those doing not so well on a carnivore diet might overdo A intake.

 

[Amazoniac]

It's the mess that Raj talks about when the metabolism drops:
- Digestive secretions are compromised and there's maldigestion of protein along with its B12
- Magnesium retention is poor
- Zinc is easily lost
- Niacin and riboflavin are deficient, both are consistently low when it drops
- Generalized stress depletes selenium and vitamins C and E
- Taurine production becomes insufficient
- Anemia of sickness appears (with various of these nutrients playing a role) with iron overload (is no longer eating iron the solution?)
- Cholesterol is high or low

Who knows what a prolonged functional vitamin A deficiency can do, but perhaps thyroid hormones have to be normalized first (Nique, 2013).