Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[somuch4food]

@GorillaHead Did you see this study I posted? Retinoic Acid Is Elevated in the Mucosa of Patients With Active Ulcerative Colitis and Displays a Proinflammatory Role by Augmenting IL-17 and IFNγ Production - PubMed

It's another argument for your case.

In his books, Grant does the same with other modern illnesses. Linking maps of vitamin A consumption compared with autoimmune/chronic disease incidences.

The fact that retinoic acid is used as a chemical peel on external skin makes sense that it would irritate the gut (our internal skin).

 

[GorillaHead]

@GorillaHead Did you see this study I posted? Retinoic Acid Is Elevated in the Mucosa of Patients With Active Ulcerative Colitis and Displays a Proinflammatory Role by Augmenting IL-17 and IFNγ Production - PubMed

It's another argument for your case.

In his books, Grant does the same with other modern illnesses. Linking maps of vitamin A consumption compared with autoimmune/chronic disease incidences.

The fact that retinoic acid is used as a chemical peel on external skin makes sense that it would irritate the gut (our internal skin).

wow. This basically is saying perforated vitamin A is toxic to the gut and probably other parts of the body. No one should be consuming perforated vitamin A.

its funny i used to believe liver was good and a year ago i was arguing with 2 doctors saying that liver was good and they kept telling me i am wrong. And now i do beleive I am wrong.

there is a reason cartoneoids dont convert well to A.

(PDF) Serum Carotenoids Are Inversely Associated with RBP4 and Other Inflammatory Markers in Middle-Aged and Elderly Adults

PDF | (1) Background: Carotenoids may be inversely associated with inflammatory markers (i.e., TNF-α, IL-6, IL-1β). However, data are scarce on retinol... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

Less rbp4 is good

High dose vitamin C therapy may be able to ameloriate these toxic affects to a degree

 

[mrchibbs]

@somuch4food

You may be right, but I have a different take re: ulcerative colitis.

I think if retinoic acids are elevated it's an adaptive response highlighting vitamin A's role in repair and wound healing:

''It plays an important role in all stages of wound healing. Vitamin A is known for its ability to stimulate epithelial growth, fibroblasts, granulation tissue, angiogenesis, collagen synthesis, epithelialization, and fibroplasia.'' - Zinder et al. (2019)

So basically I think the elevated vitamin A is a sign that the intestine is trying to heal itself, and not a part of the pathology.

I may be wrong though, that's just my take on it.

 

[ursidae]

i do want to point out that today i feel warmer than usual which is nice. So unless its an off chance incident retinol may provide energy and perhaps we should be getting it through carotenoids

I don't think it's a coincidence I have been shivering for over a month and after only 1200 iu I no longer needed to wear several layers of clothes to feel normal

 

[GorillaHead]

I think those who are anti vitamin a and for it can come to a compromise and that the issue is vitamin A dysregulation.

bph too much vitamin A in the tissue

Hairloss issues too much vitamin A in local tissue

to me whatever regulates where vitamin A goes is getting messed up.

rbp4 interestingly enough is elevared in many diseases.

they found an inverse relationship with the kidney. Whenever creatine was too high. Rbp4 went up.

 

[mrchibbs]

I think those who are anti vitamin a and for it can come to a compromise and that the issue is vitamin A dysregulation.

bph too much vitamin A in the tissue

Hairloss issues too much vitamin A in local tissue

to me whatever regulates where vitamin A goes is getting messed up.

rbp4 interestingly enough is elevared in many diseases.

they found an inverse relationship with the kidney. Whenever creatine was too high. Rbp4 went up.

That makes sense. Clearly vitamin A (used an umbrella term for retinoids) can oxidize and cause problems.
My understanding is that when there's ''too much'' vitamin A in the tissues, it's because it's allowed to accumulate in a context of hypothyroidism.
Hyperthyroidism quickly depletes vitamin A.

 

[GorillaHead]

That makes sense. Clearly vitamin A (used an umbrella term for retinoids) can oxidize and cause problems.
My understanding is that when there's ''too much'' vitamin A in the tissues, it's because it's allowed to accumulate in a context of hypothyroidism.
Hyperthyroidism quickly depletes vitamin A.

Interesting alot of my research showing vitamin a causing issues is related to the kidney. Oddly enough good kidney function is directly tied to good thyroid function

 

[mrchibbs]

Interesting alot of my research showing vitamin a causing issues is related to the kidney. Oddly enough good kidney function is directly tied to good thyroid function

That makes sense, although I would think thyroid hormone affects the function of all organs, tissues and enzymes to a certain extent.

 

[somuch4food]

@mrchibbs I agree that vitamin A can probably be a good or a bad nutrient depending on context. The study I linked to seems to indicate that in presence of inflammation vit A can potentiate said inflammation and prevent the healing vitamin A is supposed to help with,

From a more physical point of view, applying retinoic acid on the skin makes it peel. It forces the body to shed part of its skin and renew it, thus seemingly heal it. I don't think it's too farfetched to apply the same principle to the gut. If your body is already breaking down on its own, adding vit A on top will only cause more injury. I see vit A as a kind of stress put on the body to help rejuvenating old cells with new ones. In our modern days, we have lost many ways to excrete excess vit A since we are sedentary and we have added more stress with technologies and pollutants, thus I would think our requirements for it have to be lower than they were before.

I'm not too verse scientifically. So, if what I say seems outrageously wrong, please explain why.

 

[somuch4food]

I don't think it's a coincidence I have been shivering for over a month and after only 1200 iu I no longer needed to wear several layers of clothes to feel normal

I've also been particularly prone to cold extremities. Proteins seem to help, but I could try a bit more carotenoids and see. I'm off dairy and I don't have liver on hand. I associated my adverse effects with vit A, but I recently discovered amines and salicylates as possible plant compounds that could cause the same issues.

 

[lampofred]

I think vit A is like calcium. It's involved when anything is wrong and magnifies the problem but isn't itself the source of the problem.

 

[gaze]

I now believe vitamin A causes Ulcerative colitis.

Check these charts out. One is prevalence of UC and the other is prevalence of considered vitamin a deficiency.

studies shows UC is related to tretinoin use and in fact there are hundred of people claiming that after they got on accutane they developed some gut issue or disease

There reason i brough this up is because i was diagnosed with UC.

i have been symptom free for 3 years with no drugs until yesterday when I consumed 10k iu of retinol acetate. 4-5 hours later gas.

next day symptoms in my stool.

When i developed UC i was pounding 1-2 mass gainers a day. Today i checked the nutrient profile apparently each serving has 4000iu of vitamin A.

the reason the body doesnt convert much carotenoids to retinol is probably because in high levels it is toxic and perhaps the levels that are considred RDA are way too much.

Just look at japan. 2nd highest average life span. Low vitamin A consumption.

literally the countries that consume the most vitamin A. Have the highest prevalence of autoimmune diseases.

megadosing vitamin C. Vitamin D and Naicin right now. I theorize this should put me back in remission within a day

i do want to point out that today i feel warmer than usual which is nice. So unless its an off chance incident retinol may provide energy and perhaps we should be getting it through carotenoids

these charts prove nothing. that correlation is extremely weak. your ignoring pufas, added iron, artificial gums, vaccines, plastics, chemicals, starch additives, undercooked/drycooked starch like breakfast cereal, that are higher in the countries with high UC. and why would you consume retinol acetate? ray doesnt reccomend vitamin A supplements, he cautions against them in fact.

 

[mrchibbs]

@mrchibbs I agree that vitamin A can probably be a good or a bad nutrient depending on context. The study I linked to seems to indicate that in presence of inflammation vit A can potentiate said inflammation and prevent the healing vitamin A is supposed to help with,

From a more physical point of view, applying retinoic acid on the skin makes it peel. It forces the body to shed part of its skin and renew it, thus seemingly heal it. I don't think it's too farfetched to apply the same principle to the gut. If your body is already breaking down on its own, adding vit A on top will only cause more injury. I see vit A as a kind of stress put on the body to help rejuvenating old cells with new ones. In our modern days, we have lost many ways to excrete excess vit A since we are sedentary and we have added more stress with technologies and pollutants, thus I would think our requirements for it have to be lower than they were before.

I'm not too verse scientifically. So, if what I say seems outrageously wrong, please explain why.

@somuch4food

Your point is valuable, and this is a very interesting and subtle topic to discuss, but I think it's helpful to think of vitamin A as part of proteolytic or phagocytic-like processes under the direction of thyroid hormone.

We need to shed old tissues and cells for renewal to take place.

What seems to happen is that under stress, and/or presence of PUFAs, thyroid hormone is suppressed and vitamin A loses its purpose, and moreover, is not metabolized into the protective steroid hormones and can accumulate and oxidize in tissues.

This is where vitamin C and E can be helpful because they prevent the oxidation of vitamin A. In hypothyroid people with a history of a vitamin A diet, and symptoms of "vitamin A toxicity", supraphysiological doses of C and E are therapeutic, no question about it.

As @lampofred mentioned, virtually every substance can be found to be elevated in a context of a particular physiological state, but that doesn't mean it is the root cause of the pathology.

I think you're very right to underline the inflammatory effects of vitamin A if it accumulates in the tissues. As Polcz & Barbul (2019) mention, it plays a physiological role in the "inflammatory" or initial part of the healing process. Like estrogen I don't think it's meant to stay chronically elevated, but instead should be transiently metabolized as needed.

"Retinoids have the unique ability to reverse the inhibitory effects of anti-inflammatory steroids on wound healing. In addition to its role in the inflammatory phase of wound healing, retinoic acid has been demonstrated to enhance production of extracellular matrix components such as collagen type I and fibronectin, increase proliferation of keratinocytes and fibroblasts, and decrease levels of degrading matrix metalloproteinases." - Polcz & Barbul (2019)

 

[GorillaHead]

Okay my gut is coming back to normal. I swear I have a great hold over my ulcerative colitis. I am symptomless now.

Is it normal to feel tons fo energy from vitamin A ? Or is this some placebo?

 

[mrchibbs]

Okay my gut is coming back to normal. I swear I have a great hold over my ulcerative colitis. I am symptomless now.

Is it normal to feel tons fo energy from vitamin A ? Or is this some placebo?

A lot of people report great energy at first, but this subsides quickly.

I think this is the part to be careful about, in linking vitamin A with metabolic needs very closely.

 

[GorillaHead]

A lot of people report great energy at first, but this subsides quickly.

I think this is the part to be careful about, in linking vitamin A with metabolic needs very closely.

How do u think retinol builds up in bph tissue. Is it possible inflamation occurs and retinol comes in as a response and its response results in the enlargement of the tissue but also the mediation of the inflamation?

 

[GorillaHead]

A lot of people report great energy at first, but this subsides quickly.

I think this is the part to be careful about, in linking vitamin A with metabolic needs very closely.

Why is it shortlived. I feel so much stronger. But at the same time my skin is itchy a bit

 

[mrchibbs]

Why is it shortlived. I feel so much stronger. But at the same time my skin is itchy a bit

Simply meeting a deficiency, it's decreasing returns. Also if it is from liver, it's likely not the vitamin A being the main source of the "energy boost", but likely the minerals, b-vitamins and other co-factors and hormones in liver we don't know about.

 

[mrchibbs]

How do u think retinol builds up in bph tissue. Is it possible inflamation occurs and retinol comes in as a response and its response results in the enlargement of the tissue but also the mediation of the inflamation?

PUFAs and all other stressors, and ensuing hypothyroidism prevents clearance of vitamin A in my limited understanding.

 

[Ben.]

I think vit A is like calcium. It's involved when anything is wrong and magnifies the problem but isn't itself the source of the problem.

This.

I think this kind of thinking should be applied to all health related issues that are chronic or "uncurable".

The question is not if vitamin A is bad or good. The question is what are the variables under which one thrives or suffers from it and as you pointed out, what is the actual source of the problem? Why would the body be able to deal with it or even need it and why is it not able to now? Why is this one guy thriving on it and the other one suffers from it? I don't think it is the vitamin on its own, and genetics don't explain everything either.

We should be able to eat, even "non peaty" stuff, without having all hell break loose on us and our wellbeing.

Isolated pov's in chemicals, vitamins etc. in vitro is interesting, perhaps even in vivo we can make good observations but all the cofactors and mechanisms linked in an enormous chain of processes before and after its consumption/oxidation seems to be, as of now ... hard to figure out. So many variables in place, some we dont even know of yet.

Sorry i took my personal thought a little beyond in what you were saying or implying.