Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[GorillaHead]

This.

I think this kind of thinking should be applied to all health related issues that are chronic or "uncurable".

The question is not if vitamin A is bad or good. The question is what are the variables under which one thrives or suffers from it and as you pointed out, what is the actual source of the problem? Why would the body be able to deal with it or even need it and why is it not able to now? Why is this one guy thriving on it and the other one suffers from it? I don't think it is the vitamin on its own, and genetics don't explain everything either.

We should be able to eat, even "non peaty" stuff, without having all hell break loose on us and our wellbeing.

Isolated pov's in chemicals, vitamins etc. in vitro is interesting, perhaps even in vivo we can make good observations but all the cofactors and mechanisms linked in an enormous chain of processes before and after its consumption/oxidation seems to be, as of now ... hard to figure out. So many variables in place, some we dont even know of yet.

Sorry i took my personal thought a little beyond in what you were saying or implying.

This is just like

magnesium/calcium
Copper/zinc
retinol/vitamin D

almost all issues and diseases ride on this

 

[Maljam]

This.

I think this kind of thinking should be applied to all health related issues that are chronic or "uncurable".

The question is not if vitamin A is bad or good. The question is what are the variables under which one thrives or suffers from it and as you pointed out, what is the actual source of the problem? Why would the body be able to deal with it or even need it and why is it not able to now? Why is this one guy thriving on it and the other one suffers from it? I don't think it is the vitamin on its own, and genetics don't explain everything either.

We should be able to eat, even "non peaty" stuff, without having all hell break loose on us and our wellbeing.

Isolated pov's in chemicals, vitamins etc. in vitro is interesting, perhaps even in vivo we can make good observations but all the cofactors and mechanisms linked in an enormous chain of processes before and after its consumption/oxidation seems to be, as of now ... hard to figure out. So many variables in place, some we dont even know of yet.

Sorry i took my personal thought a little beyond in what you were saying or implying.

Absolutely, people have been saying similar things since page 1 of this thread. Peat himself talks about everything being connected to everything else, the nuance of the body, the countless factors and variables involved. It is completely improbable that one thing can cause everything that the anti vitamin A crowd suggest... but here we are, 376 pages later.

 

[GorillaHead]

Simply meeting a deficiency, it's decreasing returns. Also if it is from liver, it's likely not the vitamin A being the main source of the "energy boost", but likely the minerals, b-vitamins and other co-factors and hormones in liver we don't know about.

i think i finally understand why retinol increases in bph tissue. It is most likely in response to high levels of calcium to magenisum.

 

[stargazer1111]

After overdosing on a vitamin A supplement (100,000 IU per day for about two months) in the winter of 2017 and paying dearly for it (ended up in the ER multiple times that summer), I went vitamin A-free for almost 4 years until recently. My diet consisted mostly of beef, skim milk with no vitamin fortification, soda, juice, and potatoes.

I noticed a few months ago that my eyes were getting tired very easily and, at the end of the day (even in bright light), I couldn't focus them at all. Everything looked blurry. Every time I incorporated a little vitamin A (on the order of 200 IU per day), the blurriness would improve though not entirely.

I recently had a blood test done (12/14/2020) that revealed I was in the severely deficient category for vitamin A with a blood level of 9.4 ug/dl. My eye site continued to deteriorate as I removed the little vitamin A I was getting because I thought I could not tolerate it. Every food I tried with vitamin A in it caused the same symptoms I had when I took the 100,000 IU overdose 4 years ago.

However, I remember in the several months prior to overdosing on the vitamin A supplement, that I felt the absolute best I had felt since I was 18 (I was 32 then and am 36 now). I "Peated" for those months with a diet consisting mostly of whole milk with tons of sugar and salt added, cheese, small amounts of meat, orange juice, and soda. It was the only time in the last 18 years that I did not have severe fatigue, muscle pain, and a host of other problems. I felt 18 again, actually. I only stopped that way of eating because everything collapsed after taking the vitamin A supplement and I was afraid of eating anything with vitamin A in it.

Recently, I decided that I feel so bad that it's worth the risk so I went back to a diet similar to that one with tons of sugared whole milk which is giving me 3,000-5,000 IU of vitamin A daily. The only time I have a return of "overdose" symptoms is if I combine this with foods I am intolerant to (mostly starchy and fibrous foods). Without those foods, the whole milk and vitamin A are actually making me feel better.

After about a week of incorporating the whole milk again, my eye sight reverted back to the way it was years ago. Zero blurriness, everything looks brighter, and I can focus on tiny, little points again like I used to with zero problem (even after hours of looking at screens).

The only thing that corrects my eye problems is vitamin A (but again it has to come from whole fat dairy and I have to be extremely careful not to eat fibrous or starchy foods).

I believe Grant is incorrect.

There is too much evidence in the literature of people going blind from vitamin A deficiency.

 

[mrchibbs]

@stargazer1111

Thanks for your perspective and your story, very appreciated, as we can always gain much insight from the experiences of others!

I think Grant is wrong as well in his focus on vitamin A being a toxin, but if anything he brought a greater awareness of the possibility of it having adverse effects, which is very real.

Moreover, in the winter, and for relatively sick people, even Ray recommends low-ish doses of vitamin A (<5000UI daily), and the requirements increase in states of high metabolic vitality, stimulation and light exposure.

I have a few paper highlighting it's fundamental role in mitochondrial function, and of course, it has long been known to be therapeutic in cases of eye problems.

Of course there is nuance here and interactions with other nutrients and minerals, because I think Grant made a case that it is possible to retain good eyesight without vitamin A, so context is important.

 

[GorillaHead]

After overdosing on a vitamin A supplement (100,000 IU per day for about two months) in the winter of 2017 and paying dearly for it (ended up in the ER multiple times that summer), I went vitamin A-free for almost 4 years until recently. My diet consisted mostly of beef, skim milk with no vitamin fortification, soda, juice, and potatoes.

I noticed a few months ago that my eyes were getting tired very easily and, at the end of the day (even in bright light), I couldn't focus them at all. Everything looked blurry. Every time I incorporated a little vitamin A (on the order of 200 IU per day), the blurriness would improve though not entirely.

I recently had a blood test done (12/14/2020) that revealed I was in the severely deficient category for vitamin A with a blood level of 9.4 ug/dl. My eye site continued to deteriorate as I removed the little vitamin A I was getting because I thought I could not tolerate it. Every food I tried with vitamin A in it caused the same symptoms I had when I took the 100,000 IU overdose 4 years ago.

However, I remember in the several months prior to overdosing on the vitamin A supplement, that I felt the absolute best I had felt since I was 18 (I was 32 then and am 36 now). I "Peated" for those months with a diet consisting mostly of whole milk with tons of sugar and salt added, cheese, small amounts of meat, orange juice, and soda. It was the only time in the last 18 years that I did not have severe fatigue, muscle pain, and a host of other problems. I felt 18 again, actually. I only stopped that way of eating because everything collapsed after taking the vitamin A supplement and I was afraid of eating anything with vitamin A in it.

Recently, I decided that I feel so bad that it's worth the risk so I went back to a diet similar to that one with tons of sugared whole milk which is giving me 3,000-5,000 IU of vitamin A daily. The only time I have a return of "overdose" symptoms is if I combine this with foods I am intolerant to (mostly starchy and fibrous foods). Without those foods, the whole milk and vitamin A are actually making me feel better.

After about a week of incorporating the whole milk again, my eye sight reverted back to the way it was years ago. Zero blurriness, everything looks brighter, and I can focus on tiny, little points again like I used to with zero problem (even after hours of looking at screens).

The only thing that corrects my eye problems is vitamin A (but again it has to come from whole fat dairy and I have to be extremely careful not to eat fibrous or starchy foods).

I believe Grant is incorrect.

There is too much evidence in the literature of people going blind from vitamin A deficiency.

What source of vitamin A are u getting. Have u thought about getting it from cartenoids. Might be more tolerable and less side effects as u let the body regulate the conversion rate

 

[mrchibbs]

What source of vitamin A are u getting. Have u thought about getting it from cartenoids. Might be more tolerable and less side effects as u let the body regulate the conversion rate

the conversion of carotenoids into useable vitamin A is rate-limited by thyroid hormone, and can be thyroid suppressive in itself (i.e. glasses of carrot juice). Gerson used thyroid supplements in his anti-cancer therapy using carrot juice.

 

[Blossom]

After overdosing on a vitamin A supplement (100,000 IU per day for about two months) in the winter of 2017 and paying dearly for it (ended up in the ER multiple times that summer), I went vitamin A-free for almost 4 years until recently. My diet consisted mostly of beef, skim milk with no vitamin fortification, soda, juice, and potatoes.

I noticed a few months ago that my eyes were getting tired very easily and, at the end of the day (even in bright light), I couldn't focus them at all. Everything looked blurry. Every time I incorporated a little vitamin A (on the order of 200 IU per day), the blurriness would improve though not entirely.

I recently had a blood test done (12/14/2020) that revealed I was in the severely deficient category for vitamin A with a blood level of 9.4 ug/dl. My eye site continued to deteriorate as I removed the little vitamin A I was getting because I thought I could not tolerate it. Every food I tried with vitamin A in it caused the same symptoms I had when I took the 100,000 IU overdose 4 years ago.

However, I remember in the several months prior to overdosing on the vitamin A supplement, that I felt the absolute best I had felt since I was 18 (I was 32 then and am 36 now). I "Peated" for those months with a diet consisting mostly of whole milk with tons of sugar and salt added, cheese, small amounts of meat, orange juice, and soda. It was the only time in the last 18 years that I did not have severe fatigue, muscle pain, and a host of other problems. I felt 18 again, actually. I only stopped that way of eating because everything collapsed after taking the vitamin A supplement and I was afraid of eating anything with vitamin A in it.

Recently, I decided that I feel so bad that it's worth the risk so I went back to a diet similar to that one with tons of sugared whole milk which is giving me 3,000-5,000 IU of vitamin A daily. The only time I have a return of "overdose" symptoms is if I combine this with foods I am intolerant to (mostly starchy and fibrous foods). Without those foods, the whole milk and vitamin A are actually making me feel better.

After about a week of incorporating the whole milk again, my eye sight reverted back to the way it was years ago. Zero blurriness, everything looks brighter, and I can focus on tiny, little points again like I used to with zero problem (even after hours of looking at screens).

The only thing that corrects my eye problems is vitamin A (but again it has to come from whole fat dairy and I have to be extremely careful not to eat fibrous or starchy foods).

I believe Grant is incorrect.

There is too much evidence in the literature of people going blind from vitamin A deficiency.

Thank you for the update. I’m glad you are doing well and shared your experience here.

 

[stargazer1111]

the conversion of carotenoids into useable vitamin A is rate-limited by thyroid hormone, and can be thyroid suppressive in itself (i.e. glasses of carrot juice). Gerson used thyroid supplements in his anti-cancer therapy using carrot juice.

Any source other than whole-fat (non-fortified) dairy causes severe side effects, including all beta-carotene sources.

I think the story with me is much more complicated than I originally thought.

There is evidence in the literature that vitamin A can be pro-inflammatory even in small doses under certain contexts. This may be a clue.

I am severely intolerant to all plant foods, particularly starchy and fibrous ones. It seems when I eat foods I am intolerant to, vitamin A goes down the pro-inflammatory route (possibly via immune reactions to the foods). Whole fat dairy causes the opposite reaction and vitamin A from this single source actually makes me feel better (but only at limited doses).

Vitamin A makes me sick but only if I consume it in or with foods that my body can't tolerate. Probably because it enhances the immune response to them.

My story just gets more and more complicated the more time passes. It's truly bizarre.

 

[Ronald1919]

How do people even believe in grant so much. It's literally N=1. I remember years ago he kept postponing his hormonal panel because he didn't want to pay. Bro you put all this effort writing these books but you are going to be cheap over that it's pathetic. And his hormonal panel is minimal we need way more information. People shouldn't change their entire diet because of one person wild theory but of course I fell for that because I was vulnerable and had a skin issue.

Grant eczema wasn't even a big deal. I had it on my hand and it goes away even without treatment has zero to do with vitamin A. Last time I was on his blog it was a cult with no one healing and everyone saying they needed few more years lmao.

Biggest regret I have in life is wasting one year on this diet when I could have enjoyed so much food and not been paranoid over a sprinkle of pepper. It's so retarded even thinking about it pisses me off. The guy is a complete charlatan no different than delusional carnivore dieters. One look at him and I see a puffy man looking like a middle aged woman. Don't even get me started on his hamster experiment where he killed those poor things. His books are a joke and you have to be in a very desperate mindset to buy into it.

I don't believe he even follows his diet. This is not a normal diet and goes against everything my ancestors ate he literally tries to rewrite history. He could be lying about everything because he's so invested in his theory. His sidekick 'Dr. Waston' is even worse and more despicable.

 

[Orion]

Grant eczema wasn't even a big deal. I had it on my hand and it goes away even without treatment has zero to do with vitamin A. Last time I was on his blog it was a cult with no one healing and everyone saying they needed few more years lmao.

He was stage 4 kidney disease, and reversed it going low VA.

I'm over 2yrs low VA now, and still continually progress in positive path, almost all on the blog are reporting progress, dumping VA from the liver is a lengthy process.

 

[redsun]

How do people even believe in grant so much. It's literally N=1. I remember years ago he kept postponing his hormonal panel because he didn't want to pay. Bro you put all this effort writing these books but you are going to be cheap over that it's pathetic. And his hormonal panel is minimal we need way more information. People shouldn't change their entire diet because of one person wild theory but of course I fell for that because I was vulnerable and had a skin issue.

Grant eczema wasn't even a big deal. I had it on my hand and it goes away even without treatment has zero to do with vitamin A. Last time I was on his blog it was a cult with no one healing and everyone saying they needed few more years lmao.

Biggest regret I have in life is wasting one year on this diet when I could have enjoyed so much food and not been paranoid over a sprinkle of pepper. It's so retarded even thinking about it pisses me off. The guy is a complete charlatan no different than delusional carnivore dieters. One look at him and I see a puffy man looking like a middle aged woman. Don't even get me started on his hamster experiment where he killed those poor things. His books are a joke and you have to be in a very desperate mindset to buy into it.

I don't believe he even follows his diet. This is not a normal diet and goes against everything my ancestors ate he literally tries to rewrite history. He could be lying about everything because he's so invested in his theory. His sidekick 'Dr. Waston' is even worse and more despicable.

Great post I agree. Probably vitamin A is "toxic" without enough copper or zinc, niacinamide, and other cofactors but any nutrient is toxic in that case. But its not that vitamin

People who **** themselves up from too much liver is likely due to excess copper and not A. But this can be remedied by more zinc and possibly more iron. and B vitamins without more A. Or ridiculous amounts of A without much vitamin D or E could be problematic. But it does not mean A itself is toxic. I get androgenic effects from taking A still if my intake has been low for awhile.

 

[Ronald1919]

He was stage 4 kidney disease, and reversed it going low VA.

I'm over 2yrs low VA now, and still continually progress in positive path, almost all on the blog are reporting progress, dumping VA from the liver is a lengthy process.

Yes we know bro
There is anecdotes of a hundred cures for any given disease but you choose to believe some random engineer thinking he's sherlock.

 

[winter]

I was doing low VA diet for 19 months and saw some improvements initially, probably because it was low PUFA, low carotenoids and low fructose.
Overall my health kept deteriorating after a short while. I think it caused me pretty bad vitamins and minerals deficiencies including VA.
I think my main issue is aldolase b deficiency, like tca300.
I added back whole milk about a week ago and saw some improvements. I'm planning to work my way up to at least 5 liters.
The heat I'm getting from milk is incredible, I was freezing no matter how much rice, beans and beef I ate.

 

[Maljam]

I think there should be a low vitamin a diet negative testimonials thread at this point, all you guys are just going to get buried.

 

[tim333]

Vitamin A is a vitamin. Don't follow a very low vitamin A diet for four years without checking your serum retinol people... This is not rocket science.

Also, aside from dairy being optional follow a balanced diet that includes all food groups. None of us are as smart about nutrition as we may think.

Most people that are sick and looking for answers do not try to understand the science of their problem and that's normal. Most are just looking to find an expert that can help. When allopathic medicine fails to help them they look elsewhere. Yes blindly following Grant's advice is very unwise but countless gurus online including Ray Peat are just as problematic. It's a shame this thread exists on the Ray Peat forum since Ray Peat followers while providing some good input incessantly feel the need to give their opinion through their Peat inspired lens of perception. We need an unbiased forum that is strictly about Hypervitaminosis A, carotenoid allergies and Accutane that doesn't deny vitamin A is a vitamin.

For anyone new or lurking subclinical Hypervitaminosis A is very real and a number of studies have been presented showing that Hypervitaminosis A is common in the population. It is well understood in medical science that Hypervitaminosis A causes disease and a plethora of symptoms. Retinoic acid is a HORMONE. It is highly toxic in excess and most people get too much of it. Most of the world's population consumes a fraction of the RDA, for example Mexicans get about 1/5 of the RDA while Americans get about 2x the RDA. It gets even more interesting: A lot of VAD in poor countries is not likely due to VAD but due to other deficiencies like zinc and riboflavin. Hypervitaminosis A is not even rare in many African nations.

 

[stargazer1111]

He was stage 4 kidney disease, and reversed it going low VA.

I'm over 2yrs low VA now, and still continually progress in positive path, almost all on the blog are reporting progress, dumping VA from the liver is a lengthy process.

You should get your blood levels tested. It can take years for them to drop into the deficient range.

The reason Grant hasn't had vision problems yet is likely because he had a very large store and his blood level hasn't dropped low enough yet.

I am suspicious of him because he has yet to post a blood test. If he posted a blood test showing him to be in the severely deficient range while having no vision (or other) issues, I would be more inclined to take him seriously.

For now, it's all anecdotal and circumstantial and the bulk of the scientific evidence refutes his hypothesis that vitamin A is not needed for vision.

 

[stargazer1111]

I was doing low VA diet for 19 months and saw some improvements initially, probably because it was low PUFA, low carotenoids and low fructose.
Overall my health kept deteriorating after a short while. I think it caused me pretty bad vitamins and minerals deficiencies including VA.
I think my main issue is aldolase b deficiency, like tca300.
I added back whole milk about a week ago and saw some improvements. I'm planning to work my way up to at least 5 liters.
The heat I'm getting from milk is incredible, I was freezing no matter how much rice, beans and beef I ate.

The only diet that has ever made me feel really good is the Danny Roddy-style diet of mostly sugared, whole milk, full-fat cheese, small amounts of meat, tons of juice and soda. The only thing I don't do is the carrot salad because I can't tolerate fiber or vinegar in any amount.

I'm sticking with it this time because it reverses my severe fatigue and muscle pain and it's the only thing that does.

 

[stargazer1111]

Great post I agree. Probably vitamin A is "toxic" without enough copper or zinc, niacinamide, and other cofactors but any nutrient is toxic in that case. But its not that vitamin

People who **** themselves up from too much liver is likely due to excess copper and not A. But this can be remedied by more zinc and possibly more iron. and B vitamins without more A. Or ridiculous amounts of A without much vitamin D or E could be problematic. But it does not mean A itself is toxic. I get androgenic effects from taking A still if my intake has been low for awhile.

Excess vitamin A is definitely toxic and it can come from eating too much liver. This has been demonstrated in the literature well.

Vitamin A should be kept in a very tight range. Not too little, not too much.

 

[winter]

The only diet that has ever made me feel really good is the Danny Roddy-style diet of mostly sugared, whole milk, full-fat cheese, small amounts of meat, tons of juice and soda. The only thing I don't do is the carrot salad because I can't tolerate fiber or vinegar in any amount.

I'm sticking with it this time because it reverses my severe fatigue and muscle pain and it's the only thing that does.

Great that you found what works for you.
I can't tolerate juice. I have a severe reaction to fructose, even 1 gram, that can last between weeks to months.
I also can't tolerate fiber, starch and carotenoids, lutein is the worst for me.
Trying to base my diet on mostly whole milk and small amounts of meat.