Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[Tarmander]

Basically everyone is using Peats overall framework, whether they like it or not.

Yeah if you define everything as Peatism because he has mentioned most everything at some point or another, then you always get to be right in some way.

Everyone has their own framework and experiences, and I am telling you the ones that I have seen work in my ~8 years of experience.

If someone comes up to me and says "tarmander I am so sick what do I do," I tell them about EMF, Mold, the microbiome, and sunlight. Things they can change right now. If they are a health nut/vegan who is super into carrot juice I tell them about Low VA and meat.

I can't imagine leading with Peat. I can't imagine leading with "hey have you seen this amazing framework for metabolism and stress that will guide your life choices towards metabolism?" I am not an evangelist, I want to help people right then and there.

The only time I mention Peat is when someone is down some Keto rabbit hole, their health is deteriorating, and they are going down with the ship. Peat is great for breaking the stigma around sugar and waking people up from orthorexia. His writings helped me tremendously with that. But that is rare to come across.

 

[tallglass13]

@commas ,
No one is preaching about low vitamin A being the best. At least I don't think I've read anybody saying that. I think we all have to remember that there is no debate that vitamin A has a toxicity issue. That's in the medical literature, Ray Peat has confirmed it which is why I posted my email. a lot of people have felt wonderful and so many improvements in health by experimenting with this diet. There are even other websites of people that have healed hashimoto's very quickly using this way of eating. I just don't see how anyone can challenge anything that has anything to do with the positive effects of the vitamin A elimination way of eating. People either see results or they don't. We wanted Ray diet to work, I've spent a lot of money on raw milk and cheeses, thinking that would be the best diet for me. If anything there should have been a placebo effect which there may have been that one time. I've used Retin-A and vitamin A supplements in the past lots of cod liver oil, vitamin A serum topically... I know my liver has enough vitamin A and I am feeling great these days cutting vitamin A down, some days really really great ,and the vision is just so crisp. Thank goodness for Grant and his work. And thank goodness for Ray and all his work I'm still a humongous fan of him.
Again, it's beginning to become humorous when people challenge someone just because they're seeing positive results with something. I would like to think that people would congratulate the person, and if they're really interested in it, try it for themselves.
Vitamin A toxicity is a real issue and you can't take that away or dismiss it. It is not just a theory, it is an absolute fact. Now saying it's an absolute poison is still up for debate, but the toxicity issue is as real as it gets. Great work @Orion , @Tarmander , @tim333 , @Blossom , and our favorite devil's advocate, @mrchibbs , haha... If I left anyone out you too.

 

[InChristAlone]

I wanted to share some really great quotes from this article as I don't think most people understand vitamin A besides what Peat has said. There is so much juicy info in this article I encourage everyone interested in learning about vitamin A and D to read it!

"The symptoms of influenza are similar to those of retinoid toxicity; supplementary and/or pharmacological concentrations of retinoids induce influenza-like symptoms; viral activity is regulated in part by retinoids; and retinoids influence the mechanisms that both inhibit and contribute to influenza pathogenesis."

"Low concentrations of retinoic acid are essential growth factors for certain types of cells, but higher concentrations inhibit cell growth and are cytotoxic, mutagenic, and teratogenic. Exogenous vitamin A toxicity can occur due to excessive dietary consumption or from treatment with retinoids. Although vitamin A toxicity from provitamin A plant carotenoid sources has never been reported, the absorption and hepatic storage of preformed vitamin A from animal foods, fortified foods, and supplements in the form of retinyl esters can result in hypervitaminosis A. An endogenous form of retinoid intoxication can also occur naturally during cholestasis, when vitamin A metabolites are refluxed into the circulation from the liver in bile acids [75]. A variety of environmental factors can interact with endogenous sources of vitamin A to induce localized forms of retinoid toxicity or overexpression, as reviewed in this paper."

"An acute increase in the concentration of other retinoids, for example, retinoic acid, a 40-fold more potent teratogen than retinol [77] occurs after ingesting a large amount of vitamin A."

"Case reports of hypervitaminosis A often show serum retinol concentrations within normal limits, indicating that serum retinol is not a valid measure of vitamin A status during toxicity."

"A high intake of retinol also completely abolished the protective effect of vitamin D on distal colorectal adenoma, women in the highest quintile of vitamin D intake ingested about 10,000 IU/day of retinol, and there was a strong correlation overall between dietary intakes of vitamins A and D."

"Thus, rising temperatures and greater sunlight in the summer months could catabolize tissue concentrations of vitamin A to such a degree that it would prevent influenza viruses from making use of it to replicate. Conversely, the seasonal increase in influenza during the winter months may occur partly from the fact that vitamin A remains available for the virus to replicate in cooler temperatures."

"In an unusual case report, the symptoms of influenza A infection were described as being perfectly mimicked by the retinoic acid syndrome."

"Headache, a common symptom of influenza [117], is also a major feature of retinoid toxicity [118]. Conjunctivitis and photophobia are also common during acute seasonal influenza infection, especially in avian influenza A infections in humans [119]. An oculorespiratory syndrome (ORS) consisting of red eyes, photophobia, blurred vision, palpebral edema, ocular pain and itching, and conjunctival secretions is reported after influenza vaccination [120]. A similar pattern of ocular side effects has been described in diet-induced hypervitaminosis A and secondary to isotretinoin use."

"Vitamin A supplementation has not been shown to improve recovery during acute pneumonia in most human clinical trials. In a double-blind, placebo-controlled trial of vitamin A supplementation on childhood morbidity in Haiti, 11,124 children ages 6–83 months were sequentially assigned by household units to receive either a capsule containing 200,000 IU of vitamin A and 40.6 mg vitamin E or a capsule containing only 40.6 mg vitamin E (placebo) every 4 months. Indicators of childhood morbidity were studied 2–8 weeks after each administration of vitamin A and placebo capsules. At 2 weeks after supplementation the vitamin A group had an increased prevalence of all symptoms and signs of childhood morbidity, including diarrhea, rhinitis, cold/flu symptoms, cough, and rapid breathing. The risk of morbidity was highest 8–17 weeks after receiving the megadose of vitamin A. The study showed an increased 2-week prevalence of diarrhoea and the symptoms of respiratory infections after vitamin A supplementation, although mortality rates of the 2 groups were similar [123]. A meta-analysis of vitamin A supplementation trials concluded that when given alone, vitamin A slightly increased the incidence of respiratory tract infections [124]."

"Production of RA during EBV infection may enhance viral replication by promoting keratinocyte differentiation."

"It is suggested that influenza-induced liver involvement worsens the outcome of infection via the hepatic release of unbound retinyl esters and retinoic acids which are transported to and damage the lung as well as other organs, thereby contributing to the development of pneumonia, heart and kidney failure, and sepsis."

"Given the toxicity of retinoids and the fact that retinoid stores in the liver are sufficient to last the average adult for about two years [79], the presumably high quantity of retinoids spilled into the circulation in cholestatic conditions, including influenza, has the potential to cause considerable tissue damage.

(4) The mechanisms of tissue damage following the release of retinoids from the liver in influenza infection also could be due to the hepatic release of the enzyme xanthine oxidase (XO), which affects vitamin A metabolism."

"Reduced but not necessarily deficient background retinoid concentrations (i.e., a high vitamin D : A ratio) could have the opposite effect of reducing disease susceptibility, lowering disease severity, and improving disease outcomes. These hypotheses have implications for the prevention and treatment of influenza virus infections."

"Retinoid receptor overexpression may thus contribute to the pathogenesis of influenza and related viral infections, causing an endogenous form of hypervitaminosis A that manifests itself in the symptoms of the disease."

 

[somuch4food]

@sugarbabe Thank you for this. Seeing articles from people other than Grant or Garrett Smith helps bring more validity to all of this.

I'm personally seeing a big tolerance difference between seasons and that can explain why I can cheat more in summer, but in winter I need to be very careful.

 

[InChristAlone]

@sugarbabe Thank you for this. Seeing articles from people other than Grant or Garrett Smith helps bring more validity to all of this.

I'm personally seeing a big tolerance difference between seasons and that can explain why I can cheat more in summer, but in winter I need to be very careful.

You're welcome! I was really surprised by how in your face the paper was about retinoid toxicity! They really believe vitamin D will protect against it. Which is something that was suggested here but I never saw any paper talking about it. Either way it explains why since me and my family continued to go to the beach yr round this past yr none of us got sick. Whereas we were getting sick up North. And vitamin C didn't seem to make a difference though did speed up the illness. I think this paper sheds light on something very important for viruses!!

 

[maillol]

Interesting old study - Excess vitamin A ingestion, thyroid size and energy metabolism

Excess vitamin A ingestion, thyroid size and energy metabolism - PubMed

Summary
1. Heavy vitamin A medication, while allowing normal growth of the rats, depressed their basal metabolism and reduced the weight of their thyroids. The excess vitamin A also depressed the thyroid size of thiouracil-treated rats.
2. Heavy vitamin A medication tends to neutralize the increased metabolic effect of thyroxine injection.
3. While potassium iodide decreased somewhat the metabolic rate of contro1 rats, it did not decrease the metabolism of the thyroxine-treated rats.
4. Partly oxidized-but not fully oxidized-vitamin A reduced the thyroid size.
5. Several theories are suggested for the observed effects of excess vitamin A ingestion in depressing the metabolic rate and thyroid size; the simplest is that the thyroxine iodine is taken up by the double bond of the vitamin A. This reaction removes the metabolism-stimulating effects of thyroxine and the resulting iodinated vitamin A, like thyroxine, depresses pituitary thyrotrophic hormone secretion, thereby reducing the thyroid size.

 

[Lollipop2]

Well I think maybe it comes down to interpretation but I think environment changes like increasing light, removing EMF, mold-exposure and finding stimulating activities are just if not more important in Ray's mind, at least the way I understand it from all the interviews and his entire corpus.

I think the sugar, aspirin, caffeine etc. are ''adaptogens'' or punctual crutches which can be used by people in terrible environments. They're not miracle cures, and do not completely offset what's wrong with one's situation. And clearly, there are pitfalls to their uses (e.g. I need to take baking soda, and lots of glycine for aspirin to work in my situation).

Morever, a careful reading of Ray's work would reveal that many times he's warned about the dangers of over stimulation, and instead encouraging people to focus on protective inhibition (progesterone, cyproheptadine, GABA system stuff) as opposed to raising metabolism, especially early on in the recovery.

I think at the end of the day, Ray's work and this stuff we talk about here is very subtle, and completely dependent on context. I know it sounds like a cop out, but I believe it is true. If I just look at my own process with this stuff, when I first heard about Ray and Danny Roddy, I thought it was horseshit, and then, like many jumped on what I believed to be the ''RP diet'', and that wasn't exactly successful, but I don't think that is surprising in hindsight.

It takes a lot of finetuning, and I will admit, maybe I'm just being guilty of confirmation bias, but I try hard not to. I try to accumulate evidence for everything I'm dealing with, and I do my best to do my independent research and not rely on what Ray says. But he is a great source of inspiration, and possibly even more so the more I learn.

We all seem to agree on the ''Perceive, Think, Act'' approach, so that's all that matters in the end.

I am thoroughly enjoying your posts on this thread. Similar thoughts to myself and better said. My husband and I actually tried low A for about a year. We thought it was helping especially my husband who took accutane, but in the end, reducing stress was a greater factor as well as eating more homemade food - with low PUFA and watching calcium to phosphorus ratio - having milk when eating red meat. We eat all macros and cover the micros and both are doing better. Also, reducing PUFA from the tissues has allowed the NDT to work well. About 2 months ago, I upped from one grain to two grains and everything fell into place for me. Lost weight without trying, all the extra I put on while my body was healing - gone! I could fit into jeans that I hadn’t been able to wear for 5 years.

 

[Lollipop2]

@Tarmander

With all due respect, if you truly feel like I am espousing a religious dogmatic mindset, from all my contributions on this forum, you have me really wrong.

It's frankly quite demeaning, but hey maybe I'm not expressing myself correctly.

You are expressing yourself well and with a open mind. I love @Tarmander but he is definitely down on Peat for some time and constantly criticizes him. It shows up in most posts. Not a problem actually but just keep that in mind when assessing comments. I love that Tarmander experiments and has found some great help for himself. But just remember low Vit a is not for everyone just like Peat is not for everyone.

Peat has rocked my world. I explored low Vit A and low Oxalates. These both made some contribution, but nowhere near what Peat has done for me. A godsend really.

 

[Lollipop2]

Almost all things that make one feel better are either lowering stress or improving thyroid. Even trying to build a better career is a pro-thyroid activity because problem solving can be therapeutic to chronic stress. Basically everyone is using Peats overall framework, whether they like it or not. Even people who eat pufas and feel better, because the low metabolic rate spares vitamins and minerals which reduces stress. But that's only one end of the equation, there also has to be an improvement of thyroid for longevity and avoiding cancer, which the PUFAs will simply make harder and in the long run create more stress.

Well said.

 

[mrchibbs]

You are expressing yourself well and with a open mind. I love @Tarmander but he is definitely down on Peat for some time and constantly criticizes him. It shows up in most posts. Not a problem actually but just keep that in mind when assessing comments. I love that Tarmander experiments and has found some great help for himself. But just remember low Vit a is not for everyone just like Peat is not for everyone.

Peat has rocked my world. I explored low Vit A and low Oxalates. These both made some contribution, but nowhere near what Peat has done for me. A godsend really.

Thanks for being so supportive! I absolutely admire Ray especially for his way of thinking about the organism, and I'm fairly certain he has to be wrong about a few things, for instance I think there is more to the fatty acids story than he's alluded to, but overall I don't think I'll come across someone as influential as he's been in regards to my understanding of life.

 

[Tarmander]

You are expressing yourself well and with a open mind. I love @Tarmander but he is definitely down on Peat for some time and constantly criticizes him. It shows up in most posts. Not a problem actually but just keep that in mind when assessing comments. I love that Tarmander experiments and has found some great help for himself. But just remember low Vit a is not for everyone just like Peat is not for everyone.

Peat has rocked my world. I explored low Vit A and low Oxalates. These both made some contribution, but nowhere near what Peat has done for me. A godsend really.

I definitely have been criticizing him for awhile, and a big reason is that his stuff doesn't work for me. When he came out as pro-stalin/communism, that also hit his credibility for me pretty hard. I hope I don't come across as totally against his work, because there is some real value there. A big part of his appeal is he makes you feel better and relaxed about being relaxed. I just hate to see people pushing the Peat button that is obviously not working for them because they love the rationality and completeness of his framework.

 

[mrchibbs]

It's a matter of difference of perspective, isn't it. For what it's worth, I think it's difficult to bring much nuance with written posts like these, sometimes it does seem like you've discarded and dismissive much of Ray's ideas. Maybe it doesn't come across the way you intend.

I don't mind his favorable outlook on communism. He makes me question things, and for instance I've long believed WWII was largely won because of the Soviets, not the US. It's not popular to say, but I think it's very easy to argue. There is some darkness in the Stalinian era, for sure, but I think that goes for any regime.

Obviously, it's fine and even healthy to question and have a critical perspective on some of the popular ideas of this community, but sometimes it feels to be like you're using strawman arguments or generalizations to dismiss Ray's work.

But I like your openness to engage in dialogue more than anything else.

 

[Tarmander]

It's a matter of difference of perspective, isn't it. For what it's worth, I think it's difficult to bring much nuance with written posts like these, sometimes it does seem like you've discarded and dismissive much of Ray's ideas. Maybe it doesn't come across the way you intend.

I don't mind his favorable outlook on communism. He makes me question things, and for instance I've long believed WWII was largely won because of the Soviets, not the US. It's not popular to say, but I think it's very easy to argue. There is some darkness in the Stalinian era, for sure, but I think that goes for any regime.

Obviously, it's fine and even healthy to question and have a critical perspective on some of the popular ideas of this community, but sometimes it feels to be like you're using strawman arguments or generalizations to dismiss Ray's work.

But I like your openness to engage in dialogue more than anything else.

I do agree with Peat on many things, especially his criticisms of the medical establishment.

When I joined this forum, many of Peat's ideas had not been tested. No one had the old vitamin E that he was talking about being so much better than the modern vitamin E. Haidut put it together and now we can experience it. Is it that much better than the modern stuff? Yeah it is a bit better, no doubt, but it was still a bit disappointing if you were going from what Peat said.

What I noticed overtime as we tested more of Peat's theories out is that his writing and the results often do not match up. There is a real undercurrent of immortality and utopia that runs through his writing, hence the religiosity I was talking about. From my perspective, his stuff works so so. If you go through threads of experimentation or logs, some people will say it really helped them, and some not so much. It isn't all that special. Most health experiments have around a 50/50 success rate over a 3-6 month time line.

I WANT Peat to be right. Please show me threads with 80% success rates and I will be there cheering. Show me where giving a hormone for some problem didn't eventually cause imbalances for many people.

But people get hooked on the "if my metabolism is strong, I can slow, maybe even halt aging!" So I call it as I see it.

re WW2. I think 6/7 people who died against Germany were Soviet. So I agree it was the Soviets who took the German punch and broke it. WW2 seems like it was a battle against national vs global socialism and global won. Hayek has a great quote "Few recognize that the rise of fascism and Marxism was not a reaction against the socialist trends of the preceding period but a necessary outcome of those tendencies."

 

[Lollipop2]

I definitely have been criticizing him for awhile, and a big reason is that his stuff doesn't work for me. When he came out as pro-stalin/communism, that also hit his credibility for me pretty hard. I hope I don't come across as totally against his work, because there is some real value there. A big part of his appeal is he makes you feel better and relaxed about being relaxed. I just hate to see people pushing the Peat button that is obviously not working for them because they love the rationality and completeness of his framework.

I agree with hating to see people pushing something that isn’t working. That is partly why I admire you so much, willing to explore and pivot. You have been pretty harsh lately in your posts, go back through and read them. That said you are perfectly okay to post how you feel. I just want others to understand so they do not take it personally. I also do not find everything Peat says works for me and I totally ignore the political aspect, but overall I think he is more right than wrong. @mrchibbs

 

[gaze]

I do agree with Peat on many things, especially his criticisms of the medical establishment.

When I joined this forum, many of Peat's ideas had not been tested. No one had the old vitamin E that he was talking about being so much better than the modern vitamin E. Haidut put it together and now we can experience it. Is it that much better than the modern stuff? Yeah it is a bit better, no doubt, but it was still a bit disappointing if you were going from what Peat said.

What I noticed overtime as we tested more of Peat's theories out is that his writing and the results often do not match up. There is a real undercurrent of immortality and utopia that runs through his writing, hence the religiosity I was talking about. From my perspective, his stuff works so so. If you go through threads of experimentation or logs, some people will say it really helped them, and some not so much. It isn't all that special. Most health experiments have around a 50/50 success rate over a 3-6 month time line.

I WANT Peat to be right. Please show me threads with 80% success rates and I will be there cheering. Show me where giving a hormone for some problem didn't eventually cause imbalances for many people.

But people get hooked on the "if my metabolism is strong, I can slow, maybe even halt aging!" So I call it as I see it.

re WW2. I think 6/7 people who died against Germany were Soviet. So I agree it was the Soviets who took the German punch and broke it. WW2 seems like it was a battle against national vs global socialism and global won. Hayek has a great quote "Few recognize that the rise of fascism and Marxism was not a reaction against the socialist trends of the preceding period but a necessary outcome of those tendencies."

This is probably not the thread for it, but if you look at the modern problems of America, I.e. fillers in our food, low production quality, GMO corn and soy, thousands of unregulated endocrine disruptors, asbestos, lead, iron fortification, pufa, stressful working conditions, all of these are a result of capital profit being priority number one for all human interaction. Russians and people like Lysenko were pro-life in their science. If you read Lysenko's works, he talks about how cattle need to be treated very well to produce good quality milk, how chemical pesticides should be banned because they damage the quality, and their research on drugs was also based on what maximizes human life and quality, no matter the cost. Rays perspective is not the typical facist vs freedom mentality, its from a recognition that Russians wanted to maximize human life quality, while capitalists treat the induvial as being genetically predetermined, so poor quality food, environment, jobs don't matter because the "strong" genes induvial will rise up no matter what. Ray's entire work is an empathetic view of the common man, something which is not seen from the CEOs and the politicians who are after capital and capital first and foremost in every scenerio.

 

[InChristAlone]

This is probably not the thread for it, but if you look at the modern problems of America, I.e. fillers in our food, low production quality, GMO corn and soy, thousands of unregulated endocrine disruptors, asbestos, lead, iron fortification, pufa, stressful working conditions, all of these are a result of capital profit being priority number one for all human interaction. Russians and people like Lysenko were pro-life in their science. If you read Lysenko's works, he talks about how cattle need to be treated very well to produce good quality milk, how chemical pesticides should be banned because they damage the quality, and their research on drugs was also based on what maximizes human life and quality, no matter the cost. Rays perspective is not the typical facist vs freedom mentality, its from a recognition that Russians wanted to maximize human life quality, while capitalists treat the induvial as being genetically predetermined, so poor quality food, environment, jobs don't matter because the "strong" genes induvial will rise up no matter what. Ray's entire work is an empathetic view of the common man, something which is not seen from the CEOs and the politicians who are after capital and capital first and foremost in every scenerio.

When you say it like that it sounds extemely idealistic! And it was for a time. Problem is when all the power is given to a few people it never ends well. And some people would rather have the freedom than be forced into a certain way of living 'for the common good'.

 

[Tarmander]

I agree with hating to see people pushing something that isn’t working. That is partly why I admire you so much, willing to explore and pivot. You have been pretty harsh lately in your posts, go back through and read them. That said you are perfectly okay to post how you feel. I just want others to understand so they do not take it personally. I also do not find everything Peat says works for me and I totally ignore the political aspect, but overall I think he is more right than wrong. @mrchibbs

I do not want to criticize Peat so much that I take away from the real contributions he does have. Thank you for pointing that out.

This is probably not the thread for it, but if you look at the modern problems of America, I.e. fillers in our food, low production quality, GMO corn and soy, thousands of unregulated endocrine disruptors, asbestos, lead, iron fortification, pufa, stressful working conditions, all of these are a result of capital profit being priority number one for all human interaction. Russians and people like Lysenko were pro-life in their science. If you read Lysenko's works, he talks about how cattle need to be treated very well to produce good quality milk, how chemical pesticides should be banned because they damage the quality, and their research on drugs was also based on what maximizes human life and quality, no matter the cost. Rays perspective is not the typical facist vs freedom mentality, its from a recognition that Russians wanted to maximize human life quality, while capitalists treat the induvial as being genetically predetermined, so poor quality food, environment, jobs don't matter because the "strong" genes induvial will rise up no matter what. Ray's entire work is an empathetic view of the common man, something which is not seen from the CEOs and the politicians who are after capital and capital first and foremost in every scenerio.

Yeah I don't really agree with your perspective but like you said, another thread. I will say that "all of these are a result of capital profit being priority number one" is probably too simplistic of an explanation for what you describe. I too dislike pufa, iron fortification, etc

 

[gaze]

When you say it like that it sounds extemely idealistic! And it was for a time. Problem is when all the power is given to a few people it never ends well. And some people would rather have the freedom than be forced into a certain way of living 'for the common good'.

Would you consider Americans to be free? Try publishing a scientific article opposing vaccines, you’d be fired and blacklisted from all of academia for the rest of your life. Look at the food, the milk, everything is corporate owned subsidized by the government. Governmental control in America is extremely strong, but the decisions that the government makes is to incentivize profit with the bare minimum consideration of human health, cause the higher ups in government and business are one and the same. At this point right now, it is physically impossible to find any food in a supermarket that isn’t altered in a negative way. Americans are free to choose, but the choices they have are garbage.

I do not want to criticize Peat so much that I take away from the real contributions he does have. Thank you for pointing that out.


Yeah I don't really agree with your perspective but like you said, another thread. I will say that "all of these are a result of capital profit being priority number one" is probably too simplistic of an explanation for what you describe. I too dislike pufa, iron fortification, etc

understandable. I would recommend you watch the movie “dark waters”, came out last year about how DuPont poisoned the world pretty much for 50 years, and still going on. Not sure how anyone can ever defend unregulated capitalism after watching that.

 

[Lollipop2]

I do not want to criticize Peat so much that I take away from the real contributions he does have. Thank you for pointing that out.

This is exactly why I adore you and your radio show. Balanced

 

[InChristAlone]

Would you consider Americans to be free? Try publishing a scientific article opposing vaccines, you’d be fired and blacklisted from all of academia for the rest of your life. Look at the food, the milk, everything is corporate owned subsidized by the government. Governmental control in America is extremely strong, but the decisions that the government makes is to incentivize profit with the bare minimum consideration of human health, cause the higher ups in government and business are one and the same. At this point right now, it is physically impossible to find any food in a supermarket that isn’t altered in a negative way. Americans are free to choose, but the choices they have are garbage.



understandable. I would recommend you watch the movie “dark waters”, came out last year about how DuPont poisoned the world pretty much for 50 years, and still going on. Not sure how anyone can ever defend unregulated capitalism after watching that.

The things you mentioned are the result of the gov't being involved. In a free market society you wouldn't have huge CAFOs and big Ag that are subsidized. Also it is the gov't that allows for big corporations that poison the environment. I am new to voluntaryist/anarcho-capitalism, but they have an answer to all the problems you brought up. Communism almost always causes food shortage. I'd rather have cafo milk than nothing on the shelf.