Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[mrchibbs]

Grant's staples are rice, brown rice, black beans, lean ruminant meat, peeled apples.

If he does includes apples nowadays, then that’s not a terrible diet. I eat a lot of applesauce myself. Simple and probably well digested. And he doesn’t get any pufas. The only thing that’s missing would be more gelatinous cuts of meat like oxtail.

 

[mrchibbs]

this debate should have ended once grant stated his cholesterol is 110 and heart rate is 50. Thats not health, that sounds more like an entire hormonal shutdown

I think Grant’s contribution are valid in the sense that he allowed us to refine our understanding of vitamin A. But at the same time, it’s pretty clear that it is not a toxin in the strict sense, and seeing it as such is pretty reductionist. I share your perspective, I suspect Grant is probably not producing much of the protective steroids anymore, but simultaneously he maybe benefiting from low endotoxins and low PUFAs in his system.

 

[mrchibbs]

Thank you mrchibbs. Yes I think you are spot on. It is a vicious cycle, hypothyroidism encourages Hypervitaminosis A and vice versa. People's liver and serum retinol increases with age while thyroid function declines. When thyroid function is optimal, my understanding also is that both beta-carotene and retinol is metabolized much faster.

Pretty every much other vitamin is depleted by Hypervitaminosis A: thiamin, riboflavin, pantothenic acid, folate, biotin, choline, C, D, E, K2. I haven't tried megadoses of E but I haven't found supplementation of thiamin, riboflavin, C, choline or D to be helpful. At the moment I take tiny amounts of both taurine (couple of cans of Red Bull per week) and D. Taurine helps with actual excretion. With Hypervitaminosis A we don't want to stimulate the dehydrogenase enzymes that convert retinol to retinoic acid in my opinion, we just want to optimize the physiology responsible for actually excreting retinoids.

With increasing thyroid function are you thinking along the lines of glandular supplementation?

Yeah, I think glandular supplements are ideal, and very safe. Ray recently talked about a lady who took a whopping 15 grains daily for awhile to get better, but that’s a little ridiculous. To truly get to a state of high thyroid, it probably requires other interventions as well, like drinking more coffee and taking aspirin, shining red light on the thyroid gland, going to bed earlier, avoiding fluoride in water etc.

 

[Tarmander]

He is the true incarnation of the Anti-Peat.

I have thought about this a bit

One thing a strict Peat's diet seems to do is slow the flow of bile and increase its reabsorption. The fat soluble supplementation, especially vit D, will do that

Beans, as anti peat as they are, do a good job of getting bile moving.

Grant/Garrett has definitely opened my eyes to beans, basically the same way Peat did for sugar. For all their anti-metabolic effects, if someone is trapped in a hypervitaminosis state and beans can get that moving, their benefit may outweigh their cost.

This may be especially true for those who are overweight on a Peat diet and find it hard to lose weight. Obesity and slow bile flow go hand in hand, and drugs like cholestyramine that have been around forever help people lose weight in part by stimulating bile flow and getting rid of the old and gunky bile.

 

[mrchibbs]

I have thought about this a bit

One thing a strict Peat's diet seems to do is slow the flow of bile and increase its reabsorption. The fat soluble supplementation, especially vit D, will do that

Beans, as anti peat as they are, do a good job of getting bile moving.

Grant/Garrett has definitely opened my eyes to beans, basically the same way Peat did for sugar. For all their anti-metabolic effects, if someone is trapped in a hypervitaminosis state and beans can get that moving, their benefit may outweigh their cost.

This may be especially true for those who are overweight on a Peat diet and find it hard to lose weight. Obesity and slow bile flow go hand in hand, and drugs like cholestyramine that have been around forever help people lose weight in part by stimulating bile flow and getting rid of the old and gunky bile.

Don’t you think it would be better to sprout the beans before cooking them? I personally think they’re probably fine when sprouted and cooked

 

[Tarmander]

Don’t you think it would be better to sprout the beans before cooking them? I personally think they’re probably fine when sprouted and cooked

sure if you have the time sprouting is great, but it would probably be marginal

 

[mrchibbs]

sure if you have the time sprouting is great, but it would probably be marginal

I disagree with you there, I think sprouting, much like the lime preparation of corn, is anything but marginal. But it's fine to disagree :)

 

[tim333]

but a grain and legume based died is extremely high in iron?

Non heme iron plus phytates? Heme iron is normally what gives people iron overload as far as I know. If someone has iron anemia do you think consuming whole grain will help?

 

[Kvothe]

I have thought about this a bit

One thing a strict Peat's diet seems to do is slow the flow of bile and increase its reabsorption. The fat soluble supplementation, especially vit D, will do that

Beans, as anti peat as they are, do a good job of getting bile moving.

Grant/Garrett has definitely opened my eyes to beans, basically the same way Peat did for sugar. For all their anti-metabolic effects, if someone is trapped in a hypervitaminosis state and beans can get that moving, their benefit may outweigh their cost.

This may be especially true for those who are overweight on a Peat diet and find it hard to lose weight. Obesity and slow bile flow go hand in hand, and drugs like cholestyramine that have been around forever help people lose weight in part by stimulating bile flow and getting rid of the old and gunky bile.

I think the hypocholesterolemic effect of beans seen in some studies is nothing to get positively excited about. All fibers can bind or "drag along" bile acids, and thereby result in greater conversion of cholesterol into new bile acids, so this is not a special effect of beans. Studies looking at the microbiome of rats fed different protein sources usually find that bean protein produces the worst dysbiosis, it's even worse than fishmeal. For a healthy person, the occasional extra fiber from beans might not be something to worry about, or have some positive aspects, but for a person with constipation and already existing dysbiosis, a bean diet would probably be a catastrophe.

 

[tim333]

I think the hypocholesterolemic effect of beans seen in some studies is nothing to get positively excited about. All fibers can bind or "drag along" bile acids, and thereby result in greater conversion of cholesterol into new bile acids, so this is not a special effect of beans. Studies looking at the microbiome of rats fed different protein sources usually find that bean protein produces the worst dysbiosis, it's even worse than fishmeal. For a healthy person, the occasional extra fiber from beans might not be something to worry about, or have some positive aspects, but for a person with constipation and already existing dysbiosis, a bean diet would probably be a catastrophe.

Correct, whole grains and mushrooms can do the same thing. I couldn't eat beans when I had dysbiosis, after resolving the dysbiosis I now eat beans every day without issue. I don't go overboard with beans though, despite the fact that they are the only food group proven to improve health and reduce mortality. I started eating beans because they are a rich source of thiamin, folate and molybdenum not for their fibre content. The primary soluble fibre in beans is pectin which converts into methanol, beta-glucan in mushrooms and oats absorbs bile and doesn't have the methanol issue. I eat mushrooms daily for their riboflavin content, I only found out recently that they are one of the best foods for bile absorption.

 

[charlie]

Correct, whole grains and mushrooms can do the same thing. I couldn't eat beans when I had dysbiosis, after resolving the dysbiosis I now eat beans every day without issue. I don't go overboard with beans though, despite the fact that they are the only food group proven to improve health and reduce mortality. I started eating beans because they are a rich source of thiamin, folate and molybdenum not for their fibre content. The primary soluble fibre in beans is pectin which converts into methanol, beta-glucan in mushrooms and oats absorbs bile and doesn't have the methanol issue. I eat mushrooms daily for their riboflavin content, I only found out recently that they are one of the best foods for bile absorption.

Hi @tim333, what beans are you eating?

 

[tim333]

Hi @tim333, what beans are you eating?

Hi @charlie, just canned baked beans (navy beans), I drain most of the sauce out first. I saute some chopped bacon, onion and mushrooms then add the beans. I like lentils but don't have them often due to preparation time.

One thing I forgot to mention about beans is that their protein content helps to reduce protein requirements from meat which allows one to reduce their oxysterol intake.

 

[Tarmander]

Correct, whole grains and mushrooms can do the same thing. I couldn't eat beans when I had dysbiosis, after resolving the dysbiosis I now eat beans every day without issue. I don't go overboard with beans though, despite the fact that they are the only food group proven to improve health and reduce mortality. I started eating beans because they are a rich source of thiamin, folate and molybdenum not for their fibre content. The primary soluble fibre in beans is pectin which converts into methanol, beta-glucan in mushrooms and oats absorbs bile and doesn't have the methanol issue. I eat mushrooms daily for their riboflavin content, I only found out recently that they are one of the best foods for bile absorption.

that is one nice thing about beans that apples and other fiber does not have, their extra nutrients feed right into the dehydrogenase pathway for VA

 

[tim333]

that is one nice thing about beans that apples and other fiber does not have, their extra nutrients feed right into the dehydrogenase pathway for VA

Re that interview you've got a good radio voice/manner.

Because it's relevant to what you just said this is my feedback I posted on Grant's forum on what Smith said in the interview, I'm not very enthusiastic about it...

"The only part of this interview that I liked and agreed with was the discussion about Hypervitaminosis A being an epidemic.

I found many problems with the rest of what he said.

He's so confused about dehydrogenase enzymes and vA. Firstly retinol has its own set of enzymes, alcohol dehydrogenases are not needed for retinol metabolism. Because of this misunderstanding he claims Asians have trouble metabolizing vA because of alcohol dehydrogenase deficiencies. He thinks alcohol dehydrogenases are important to detox and then goes on to discuss that it is these enzymes that create retinoic acid (excess retinoic acid being the main cause of toxicity in Hypervitaminosis A)...

Anything that up-regulates alcohol and retinol dehydrogenase will lead to even more retinoic acid and more toxicity. The key to vA detox is time and also increasing the excretion of retinoic acid, not the creation of it...

An example of an enzyme that is involved in retinoid excretion is UDP-glucuronyltransferase/UDP-glucuronosyltransferase that metabolizes retinoic acid into retinyl beta-glucuronide."

 

[Tarmander]

Re that interview you've got a good radio voice/manner

thanks

 

[LLight]

One thing I forgot to mention about beans is that their protein content helps to reduce protein requirements from meat which allows one to reduce their oxysterol intake

Genuine question, what's bad with oxysterols?
I've read that they (maybe not all) activate the Liver X Receptor (LXR) which seems to be involved in bile production and glucuronidation.

 

[tim333]

Genuine question, what's bad with oxysterols?
I've read that they (maybe not all) activate the Liver X Receptor (LXR) which seems to be involved in bile production and glucuronidation.

Do they do that incidentally or by design? My understanding is they are always undesirable and are a major cause of arteriosclerosis. I'm not saying cooked animal products are the main cause of heart disease, they may play a decent role but oxidized pufa creates endogenous oxysterols too, excess sugar in raising ldl does too I think. Starch seems to be the cleanest form of energy from the perspective of the development of arteriosclerosis.

 

[Kvothe]

they are the only food group proven to improve health and reduce mortality.

 

[tim333]

One other thought about oxysterols:

I'm don't like dairy, when you look at its components one gets the clear impression it's not a great food. Lactose, galactose, casein, bcm7... yuck. I don't completely avoid it and I think it may be helpful as a minor component of the diet, some genetically adapted individuals may even benefit from significant amounts of it but I certainly don't do well on it. However I can't ignore the fact that some long lived communities around the world include significant amounts of raw dairy products in their diet. I think it's likely that their longevity is due to raw dairy replacing cooked meat and animal fat to an extent and reducing their total intake of oxysterols as a result.

 

[tim333]