Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[postman]

Clinical Impression of the participating physicians,i read only parts of the study though.

What line in particular?

 

[Tarmander]

Do you have the original paper? I've been trying to look for it but all I could find was the name and journal number. Please help me find it, It would be interesting to see exactly what he ate.

Ocular complications of self-induced vitamin A deficiency. - PubMed - NCBI

Ocular complications of self-induced vitamin A deficiency.
Trans Ophthalmol Soc U K. 1970;89:221-8.

I checked Sci Hub. No luck

 

[postman]

I checked Sci Hub. No luck

Yea it seems like it was published in some smaller sister journal, than the second study

 

[Louise]

Louise said: ↑
Chapter 6 starting on page 132.

The guy got rid of his epilepsy while on the diet. Also Grant says that the oil, not the A in the oil was helpful as was the vitamin D he took when the doctors intervened. He discussed elsewhere in the book, maybe chapter 1, about the same kind of thing- fats were helping people/kids with their skin/eyes, not the vitamin A. Not sure if this is in the book but the guy was probably taking gold salts during his vitamin A depletion diet (his skin was a gray/blue a tell tale sig). I guess taking gold salts was somewhat of a fad back then. There are way too many unanswered questions that the article Tarmander posted does not answer or address. Sharman was one of the men resposible for reporting the case and he was very biased about vitamin A. Here is another article that might be of interest - Failure of massive single oral dose of vitamin A to prevent deficiency The children developed problems after the high vitamin A dose.

The guy with the elimination diet in the 1970 and ocular damage did not get rid of epilepsy.
Also."Failure of massive single oral dose of vitamin A to prevent deficiency":
"The load had no clinical or biochemical advantage
for children on a moderate carotene diet.
The findings are in accordance with previous
experience, when a load of 100,000 ,ug vitamin A
was unable to maintain adequate serum levels
beyond 15 to 19 weeks when given to depleted
children."

It seems to me that Vitamin A Dosing in Crisis-Zones have to be surrounded by Zinc Dosing concomitantly.

Also:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2475981/pdf/bullwho00612-0037.pdf

Some Case studies.

What is your source that his epilepsy did not recover? Also, in the Failure of massive...... paper it states that none of the children at the beginning of the study had any signs of vitamin A deficiency but at the end of the study a significant number had developed problems. It was a short term study. If they continued observations they would likely have seen more damage. Sometimes giving vitamin A suppresses negative outcomes in the short term. These ideas have been discussed in many posts in this thread.

 

[postman]

Clinical Impression of the participating physicians,i read only parts of the study though.

The guy definitely cured his epilepsy or at least successfully treated his epilepsy with his very low VA diet. He was literally going blind yet still wanted to stay away from retinol because he had no epilepsy no more.

Here is Sherman himself writing about this exact case: Unusual Case of Self-Imposed Vitamin A Deficiency

 

[postman]

I checked Sci Hub. No luck

Yeah it's not there, it doesn't seem to be anywhere.

Does anyone have third study? The one Grant talks about in that same chapter? I can find it here with the name, authors, journal name and edition and year. Vitamin A and epilepsy: a dietary contretemps. - Abstract - Europe PMC
But when I go to read it on the journal websit, which seems to have online access to all their articles all the way back to the 1940's, it's nowhere to be found. Proceedings of the Nutrition Society | All issues | Cambridge Core.

Here is what Grant wrote:

Nonetheless, the material fact here is that he cured his epilepsy with a vitamin-A deplete diet. This fact did indeed spark at least some interest from a few folks in the medical community. After all, curing one’s epilepsy is no minor accomplishment. There is a small follow-up study conducted with eight other people with epilepsy, and they are all placed on vitamin-A deplete diets. There are two remarkable findings from this follow-up study. Firstly, all eight people recover from their epilepsy. That’s an astonishing 100% success rate. Is there any medical drug that has anywhere near a 100% success rate in treating a disease such as epilepsy? The second very noticeable observation made in this experiment is that all eight of these people quickly lose significant amounts of body fat. Therefore, I believe this is pretty clear evidence that vitamin-A consumption is causing the body to retain fat

 

[Tristan Loscha]

The numbers of cases are so low..need that small-follow-up study which increases confidence so much.The Curing (absence from apparent disease-activity is NO CURE,taking Benzodiazepines or Carbamates arent Cures for Epilepsy) of his epilepsy also wasnt documented.A lot of Epileptics develop superstition and outright
Psychosis as a consequence of this severe disease.I read a lot about Vitamin A (Retinol) in my life, i cant remember it proper,but convulsions are a exceptionally rare occurence or in complete absence from talk around Vitamin A,even the more
toxic metabolites and artifical ones like adapalenes etcetc.My hunch is that he depleted himself from carotenes and
established through that newfound Retinol-order in his tissues.There can be the possibility in this World that a subset of epilepsy has imperfect Retinol-handling and Profits from abstinence.But its more an Carotene-inverse-Agonist that is at play,than true Healing.There do exist very rare Retinol Retention Disease,in which those subjected cant handle even small
amounts of it,but it isnt allowed to have one anecdote question severely the utility of Vitamin A biology.We need more than that.

 

[Tristan Loscha]

Yeah it's not there, it doesn't seem to be anywhere.

Does anyone have third study? The one Grant talks about in that same chapter? I can find it here with the name, authors, journal name and edition and year. Vitamin A and epilepsy: a dietary contretemps. - Abstract - Europe PMC
But when I go to read it on the journal websit, which seems to have online access to all their articles all the way back to the 1940's, it's nowhere to be found. Proceedings of the Nutrition Society | All issues | Cambridge Core.

Here is what Grant wrote:

Nonetheless, the material fact here is that he cured his epilepsy with a vitamin-A deplete diet. This fact did indeed spark at least some interest from a few folks in the medical community. After all, curing one’s epilepsy is no minor accomplishment. There is a small follow-up study conducted with eight other people with epilepsy, and they are all placed on vitamin-A deplete diets. There are two remarkable findings from this follow-up study. Firstly, all eight people recover from their epilepsy. That’s an astonishing 100% success rate. Is there any medical drug that has anywhere near a 100% success rate in treating a disease such as epilepsy? The second very noticeable observation made in this experiment is that all eight of these people quickly lose significant amounts of body fat. Therefore, I believe this is pretty clear evidence that vitamin-A consumption is causing the body to retain fat

"There is a small follow-up study conducted with eight other people with epilepsy, and they are all placed on vitamin-A deplete diets. There are two remarkable findings from this follow-up study. Firstly, all eight people recover from their epilepsy."


I need to see that study,sounds absolute remarkable to me.does he quote the source of this highly important paper?

 

[postman]

"There is a small follow-up study conducted with eight other people with epilepsy, and they are all placed on vitamin-A deplete diets. There are two remarkable findings from this follow-up study. Firstly, all eight people recover from their epilepsy."


I need to see that study,sounds absolute remarkable to me.does he quote the source of this highly important paper?

It's the one I spoke about in the post you quoted, "the third study". The links are in the post you quoted. It seems to have been scraped from their archives. I wonder why.

Anyways a meta review briefly mentiond it. Experimental Induction of Vitamin A Deficiency in Humans

"In order to investigate further apossible connection between vitamin A and epilepsy, Shar-man (30) then studied 8 epileptic patients given a vitaminA-depleted diet for 2 years. No cases of night blindness wereobserved. When their plasma retinol level had reached 230IU/L, they were given a vitamin A supplement. Although thepatients reported fewerfits during the depletion period, therewas no increase in thefits during repletion. The author (30)called his experiment a“dietary contretemps."

The numbers of cases are so low..need that small-follow-up study which increases confidence so much.The Curing (absence from apparent disease-activity is NO CURE,taking Benzodiazepines or Carbamates arent Cures for Epilepsy) of his epilepsy also wasnt documented.A lot of Epileptics develop superstition and outright
Psychosis as a consequence of this severe disease.I read a lot about Vitamin A (Retinol) in my life, i cant remember it proper,but convulsions are a exceptionally rare occurence or in complete absence from talk around Vitamin A,even the more
toxic metabolites and artifical ones like adapalenes etcetc.My hunch is that he depleted himself from carotenes and
established through that newfound Retinol-order in his tissues.There can be the possibility in this World that a subset of epilepsy has imperfect Retinol-handling and Profits from abstinence.But its more an Carotene-inverse-Agonist that is at play,than true Healing.There do exist very rare Retinol Retention Disease,in which those subjected cant handle even small
amounts of it,but it isnt allowed to have one anecdote question severely the utility of Vitamin A biology.We need more than that.

Could you please read the relevant studies before you write assumptions about them. He depleted himself of both retinol and carotene, he had the lowest blood levels of retinol ever recorded in Britain.

 

[Tristan Loscha]

It's the one I spoke about in the post you quoted, "the third study". The links are in the post you quoted. It seems to have been scraped from their archives. I wonder why.

Anyways a meta review briefly mentiond it. Experimental Induction of Vitamin A Deficiency in Humans

"In order to investigate further apossible connection between vitamin A and epilepsy, Shar-man (30) then studied 8 epileptic patients given a vitaminA-depleted diet for 2 years. No cases of night blindness wereobserved. When their plasma retinol level had reached 230IU/L, they were given a vitamin A supplement. Although thepatients reported fewerfits during the depletion period, therewas no increase in thefits during repletion. The author (30)called his experiment a“dietary contretemps."


Could you please read the relevant studies before you write assumptions about them. He depleted himself of both retinol and carotene, he had the lowest blood levels of retinol ever recorded in Britain.

That is fair.The utility of Retinol and/or Carotene depletion in epilepsy is to be
investigated,at least cursory.
Still no proof of Poisonous A in sight, i know i do not have convulsions or epilepsy

even after Hi-Dose Retinol.
Interesting mention,leading me to believe of anti Retinol-action:

"In order to investigate further apossible connection between vitamin A and epilepsy,

Shar-man (30) then studied 8 epileptic patients given a vitaminA-depleted diet for 2

years. No cases of night blindness wereobserved. When their plasma retinol level had

reached 230IU/L, they were given a vitamin A supplement. Although thepatients reported

fewerfits during the depletion period, therewas no increase in thefits during

repletion. The author (30)called his experiment a“dietary contretemps."


Depletion: -(˅)Retinol- -(˅)Inverse-Agonist-Carotenes-
Repletion: -(˄)Retinol- -(˂˅˃)Inverse-Agonist-Carotenes-

no increase of the fits during repletion.Retinol again ruling by repletion,leaving

lame duck Carotene in the dust?

 

[postman]

That is fair.The utility of Retinol and/or Carotene depletion in epilepsy is to be
investigated,at least cursory.
Still no proof of Poisonous A in sight, i know i do not have convulsions or epilepsy

even after Hi-Dose Retinol.
Interesting mention,leading me to believe of anti Retinol-action:

"In order to investigate further apossible connection between vitamin A and epilepsy,

Shar-man (30) then studied 8 epileptic patients given a vitaminA-depleted diet for 2

years. No cases of night blindness wereobserved. When their plasma retinol level had

reached 230IU/L, they were given a vitamin A supplement. Although thepatients reported

fewerfits during the depletion period, therewas no increase in thefits during

repletion. The author (30)called his experiment a“dietary contretemps."


Depletion: -(˅)Retinol- -(˅)Inverse-Agonist-Carotenes-
Repletion: -(˄)Retinol- -(˂˅˃)Inverse-Agonist-Carotenes-

no increase of the fits during repletion.Retinol again ruling by repletion,leaving

lame duck Carotene in the dust?

I doubt the study followed the patients for long enough to see any illness symptoms returning. If you haven't had any vitamin A for 2 years it's probably going to take a while before your liver gets full and you get toxicity symptoms again. We don't know how much retinol they were given or for how long they were being given retinol.

Seeing as how the study seems to have been censored off the internet I guess we will never know.

 

[postman]

Ok so I managed to get the study, it was really disappointing though. Last page of this document https://www.cambridge.org/core/serv...73000303a.pdf/abstracts_of_communications.pdf

He did a 2 year long dietary study on epilepsy patients and the patients reported that they felt better and had fewer fits. He didn't report what they ate, their blood tests result, the level of relief they had, how much retinol he gave them or for how long, or any results at all really. Just that they stopped eating retinol for 2 whole years, had fewer fits, then he gave them retinol, and the fits didn't immediately come back thus obviously retinol had nothing to do with it. He was probably too embarassed to show any data. A single one page report for a seemingly successful treatment of epilepsy.


At least it gives us a follow up on the man who avoided retinol in the previouys study:

"During a period of 4 years he had only one minor attack of epilepsy but complications including progressive bilateral corneal xerosis and severe retinal damage resulted (Bors & Fells, 1971). These disabilities were, however, reversed by vitamin A therapy but a further fit ensued."

 

[Tarmander]

Ok so I managed to get the study, it was really disappointing though. Last page of this document https://www.cambridge.org/core/serv...73000303a.pdf/abstracts_of_communications.pdf

He did a 2 year long dietary study on epilepsy patients and the patients reported that they felt better and had fewer fits. He didn't report what they ate, their blood tests result, the level of relief they had, how much retinol he gave them or for how long, or any results at all really. Just that they stopped eating retinol for 2 whole years, had fewer fits, then he gave them retinol, and the fits didn't immediately come back thus obviously retinol had nothing to do with it. He was probably too embarassed to show any data. A single one page report for a seemingly successful treatment of epilepsy.


At least it gives us a follow up on the man who avoided retinol in the previouys study:

"During a period of 4 years he had only one minor attack of epilepsy but complications including progressive bilateral corneal xerosis and severe retinal damage resulted (Bors & Fells, 1971). These disabilities were, however, reversed by vitamin A therapy but a further fit ensued."

I love that they did this study in response to this crazy guy's experiment. Real science!

How did you find the study?

Really not much info given sadly. But the pattern of VA restriction, and then reintroduction with no return of said problems fits what the other women talked about in the link I posted above.

Also interesting that their blood levels of VA were very low with no indications of any problems. Again, VA deficiency only showing up in really extreme cases.

 

[Tristan Loscha]

I love that they did this study in response to this crazy guy's experiment. Real science!

How did you find the study?

Really not much info given sadly. But the pattern of VA restriction, and then reintroduction with no return of said problems fits what the other women talked about in the link I posted above.

Also interesting that their blood levels of VA were very low with no indications of any problems. Again, VA deficiency only showing up in really extreme cases.

True.but we cant know if there were no problems though.Just lack of overt symptomatology.
You can not often find something,if you do not search for it.
Retinol is so basic that the general tendency of accelerated decay with insufficiency would go unnoticed for the
inexperienced observer.These Physicians were not trained Vitamin A scholars.

 

[Tarmander]

True.but we cant know if there were no problems though.Just lack of overt symptomatology.
You can not often find something,if you do not search for it.
Retinol is so basic that the general tendency of accelerated decay with insufficiency would go unnoticed for the
inexperienced observer.These Physicians were not trained Vitamin A scholars.

Yes incomplete

 

[Amazoniac]

Garret made a post on his membership forum 3 days ago with some new recommendations. Apparently onions and coffee are the new enemies now. Going as far as to say that that the research he uncovered on alliums is akin to the research he uncovered on VA.

I bet that it's related to enzymatic competition for molybdenum based on Grant's latest post. The next may be manganese, then selenium, copper, choline, inositol, and so on. We can antecipate that those guys will inadvertently arrive on a comprehensive nutritional approach. What they're doing is getting people on an elementary diet that's the least demanding/challenging, and lowering of poison A will also serve to make the immune system docile, less reactiveness is a relief when it's chronically-activated, the sparing effect leaves an opportunity to recover through conservation.

Ok so I managed to get the study, it was really disappointing though. Last page of this document https://www.cambridge.org/core/serv...73000303a.pdf/abstracts_of_communications.pdf

He did a 2 year long dietary study on epilepsy patients and the patients reported that they felt better and had fewer fits. He didn't report what they ate, their blood tests result, the level of relief they had, how much retinol he gave them or for how long, or any results at all really. Just that they stopped eating retinol for 2 whole years, had fewer fits, then he gave them retinol, and the fits didn't immediately come back thus obviously retinol had nothing to do with it. He was probably too embarassed to show any data. A single one page report for a seemingly successful treatment of epilepsy.


At least it gives us a follow up on the man who avoided retinol in the previouys study:

"During a period of 4 years he had only one minor attack of epilepsy but complications including progressive bilateral corneal xerosis and severe retinal damage resulted (Bors & Fells, 1971). These disabilities were, however, reversed by vitamin A therapy but a further fit ensued."

I think that those are abstracts, Grant might have it.

 

[InChristAlone]

I bet that it's related to enzymatic competition for molybdenum based on Grant's latest post. The next may be manganese, then selenium, copper, choline, inositol, and so on. We can antecipate that those guys will inadvertently arrive on a comprehensive nutritional approach. What they're doing is getting people on an elementary diet that's the least demanding/challenging, and lowering of poison A will also serve to make the immune system docile, less reactiveness is a relief when it's chronically-activated, the sparing effect leaves an opportunity to recover through conservation.

I think that those are abstracts, Grant might have it.

It's a good explanation for why the diet seems to work for some people with auto-immune problems, but if it was the case that it's just elemental, then you would also get better on a true elemental diet, with all broken down nutrients, with retinol included. If it wasn't vitamin A you could also heal on a low immunogenic diet with liver included as most people are not sensitive to beef though some are so you someone could try chicken liver too. Then that's basically the carnivore diet, but some are not having so much success and one of the reasons given was the retinoic acid.

 

[Amazoniac]

It's a good explanation for why the diet seems to work for some people with auto-immune problems, but if it was the case that it's just elemental, then you would also get better on a true elemental diet, with all broken down nutrients, with retinol included. If it wasn't vitamin A you could also heal on a low immunogenic diet with liver included as most people are not sensitive to beef though some are so you someone could try chicken liver too. Then that's basically the carnivore diet, but some are not having so much success and one of the reasons given was the retinoic acid.

There's no doubt that eliminating dietary poisons is at the core of this approach, but if it was this simple, there wouldn't be much left to do. The odds are favorable because stores are vast, otherwise it would be evident earlier that it's a systemic problem.

--
- Hepatic and pancreatic stellate cells in focus

 

[InChristAlone]

There's no doubt that eliminating dietary poisons is at the core of this approach, but if it was this simple, there wouldn't be much left to do. The odds are favorable because stores are vast, otherwise it would be evident earlier that it's a systemic problem.

--
- Hepatic and pancreatic stellate cells in focus

Yeah I definitely think stores are vast which goes back to what most are saying here that we are getting too much. Our diets are too rich.

 

[postman]

I bet that it's related to enzymatic competition for molybdenum based on Grant's latest post. The next may be manganese, then selenium, copper, choline, inositol, and so on. We can antecipate that those guys will inadvertently arrive on a comprehensive nutritional approach. What they're doing is getting people on an elementary diet that's the least demanding/challenging, and lowering of poison A will also serve to make the immune system docile, less reactiveness is a relief when it's chronically-activated, the sparing effect leaves an opportunity to recover through conservation.

I think that those are abstracts, Grant might have it.

That is all that was ever published about it from what I can tell. A conference abstract. He probably didn't want to show extensive results.

It doesn't seem comprehensive to me, seems more like whatever interesting papers Garret read that month becomes basis for the next developments in his diet. I also suspect that his whole rationale about how detox symptoms are to be avoided, that he now seemingly has gotten Grant to believe in as well, is misguided and wrong.