Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[InChristAlone]

Hey guys been a while since I had any updates. I have been going through severe TMD on my right side. Been on ibuprofen twice a day for two months. And can't chew very easily as I'm now missing a chewing molar on the other side. So it's been extremely difficult to go low vitamin A. My main foods are full fat Greek yogurt for the calories and nutrition, bananas, ice cream, some cheese, pasta, and mashed potatoes. I'm also drinking some coffee lately. Wellllllll TMJ is still very very sore and I'm running out of ideas. It is worse at the end of my cycle. Progesterone flared it up to a level 9 when I took it for pregnancy prevention one day so I haven't taken that at all. Other than that I'm doing very well. But I think the Greek yogurt is not helping. What could I eat that is lower in vitamin A that isn't tough to chew? Ground beef is completely out of the equation unless it's Taco Bell type processed. Anything I make at home flares me up quite severely as it's using the chewing muscles too much.

 

[BigChad]

I´m 4 months into the low vitamin A diet now and I am doing great. All of my previous health problems are gone.I no longer need antibiotics to keep my asthma and infections away. I was taking both doxycycline and azithromycine to combat my severe asthma and recurring respiratory infections. My experience is exactly the same as the OP Franko. My health was progressively getting worse each year when I was peating, to the point I needed antibiotics to survive. My skin was burning and flaking off everyday, I was having all the symptoms of being vitamin A toxic. It wasn´t until 4 months ago that I completely stopped peating and began eating the low vitamin A diet that my health started to turn around. My skin is very smooth now. I have no more eczema and am not using any medications, steroids, thyroid or antibiotics. I actually got a job since I am able to work again. I have been super busy lately so not much time to be active on the RPF. I am finally able to enjoy life. I haven´t eaten any dairy or any peat/approved foods like oranges or gelatin. I feel fine and have all the indications of having good testosterone levels.

How much vitamin A are you eatinv now, vs before.
I dont get it, isnt vitamin A essential for thyroid function? Is there an issue with supplemental vitamin A being toxic, or were you getting over 5000IU vitamin A daily?

 

[Dolomite]

@sugarbabe how about egg whites for protein? I don’t have any advice for TMJ. It is painful.

 

[postman]

Hey guys been a while since I had any updates. I have been going through severe TMD on my right side. Been on ibuprofen twice a day for two months. And can't chew very easily as I'm now missing a chewing molar on the other side. So it's been extremely difficult to go low vitamin A. My main foods are full fat Greek yogurt for the calories and nutrition, bananas, ice cream, some cheese, pasta, and mashed potatoes. I'm also drinking some coffee lately. Wellllllll TMJ is still very very sore and I'm running out of ideas. It is worse at the end of my cycle. Progesterone flared it up to a level 9 when I took it for pregnancy prevention one day so I haven't taken that at all. Other than that I'm doing very well. But I think the Greek yogurt is not helping. What could I eat that is lower in vitamin A that isn't tough to chew? Ground beef is completely out of the equation unless it's Taco Bell type processed. Anything I make at home flares me up quite severely as it's using the chewing muscles too much.

If you're not too averse to raw meat you could just cut up some raw meat into small cubes and swallow them whole, it wont cause an obstruction in your guts or stomach pain if its raw. If you have a juicer you could make juice from pears or something like that. You could buy lychee juice from asian supermarkets. Maybe you could cook up a really soft soup with potatoes and white vegetables and mash it all together. Some meat stores sell tallow, that has a similair consistency as greek yoghurt but not nearly as much VA. With a food processor you can turn pretty much any kind of food into a wet mush.

 

[BigChad]

Dr. Peat has said that sugar causes brain growth + speeding of metabolism and that fat and protein act the same way that stress and anxiety do on the brain but are necessary for full functioning. Vit A is probably the same, since it is a nutrient that slows metabolism, like Vitamin D, but unlike B Vitamins or Vitamin E.

Reducing stress/anxiety in other areas of life (I think mental rumination, isolation, alcohol, oversleeping, etc. are stressful in the same way that fat and protein are) would probably reduce sensitivity to the "stressful" aspect of fat, protein, and vitamin A.

I don't understand. Doesnt vitamin D raise metabolism not lower it? The b vitamins dont seem to raise metabolism, they promote zinc magnesium retention while promoting copper, iron and calcium excretion. Over time high doses of bs could mess your metabolism

 

[lampofred]

I don't understand. Doesnt vitamin D raise metabolism not lower it? The b vitamins dont seem to raise metabolism, they promote zinc magnesium retention while promoting copper, iron and calcium excretion. Over time high doses of bs could mess your metabolism

I think Vitamin D does slow metabolism, that's why it lowers cortisol and increases serotonin in the brain (in nature it comes with sunlight, which raises metabolism, so the slowing metabolism probably might balance out that way). But it's not a degenerative slowing of metabolism like what PUFA does, which slows your system and raises cortisol at the same time.

I'm not sure about all the B-vitamins but I think at least some of them do raise metabolism such as B3 for example, since it eliminates FFA from your bloodstream and makes you run on sugar.

Also I think zinc & magnesium are retained when CO2/metabolism is high, & copper/iron/calcium are retained when CO2 is low/estrogen is high.

 

[InChristAlone]

@sugarbabe how about egg whites for protein? I don’t have any advice for TMJ. It is painful.

I tend to avoid eggs but I could try them.

If you're not too averse to raw meat you could just cut up some raw meat into small cubes and swallow them whole, it wont cause an obstruction in your guts or stomach pain if its raw. If you have a juicer you could make juice from pears or something like that. You could buy lychee juice from asian supermarkets. Maybe you could cook up a really soft soup with potatoes and white vegetables and mash it all together. Some meat stores sell tallow, that has a similair consistency as greek yoghurt but not nearly as much VA. With a food processor you can turn pretty much any kind of food into a wet mush.

Yeah I'm not sure how much raw meat I could get down haha. Reminds me of when I'd take raw liver 'pills' just held my nose and washed it down. Yeah I could grind up my food more. Thanks.

 

[postman]

I tend to avoid eggs but I could try them.


Yeah I'm not sure how much raw meat I could get down haha. Reminds me of when I'd take raw liver 'pills' just held my nose and washed it down. Yeah I could grind up my food more. Thanks.

It's quite unappetizing when served cold but I promise, it's way more palatable if you let it rest outside of the fridge for a couple of hours and let it get to room temperature. By the way it's easy to make meat paté in a food processor, raw or cooked haha.

 

[BigChad]

I think Vitamin D does slow metabolism, that's why it lowers cortisol and increases serotonin in the brain (in nature it comes with sunlight, which raises metabolism, so the slowing metabolism probably might balance out that way). But it's not a degenerative slowing of metabolism like what PUFA does, which slows your system and raises cortisol at the same time.

I'm not sure about all the B-vitamins but I think at least some of them do raise metabolism such as B3 for example, since it eliminates FFA from your bloodstream and makes you run on sugar.

Also I think zinc & magnesium are retained when CO2/metabolism is high, & copper/iron/calcium are retained when CO2 is low/estrogen is high.

How about vitamin k, the 4 types and vitamin e tocopherols and tocotrienols. How do they affect metabolism.
Have you read natural supremacys article on vitamin d? It seems to lower myostatin, increase muscle growth, fat loss, etc. It seems very pro metabolic. This is the first ive heard supplemental D raising serotonin. Vitamin A ive heard competes with thyroid hormone etc.

Ive gone into a low metabolism state due to zma and vitamin c depleting copper, iron and possibly calcium levels. I guess without zma i already had enough zinc magnesium so adding zma became counter productive

 

[Tarmander]

Hey guys been a while since I had any updates. I have been going through severe TMD on my right side. Been on ibuprofen twice a day for two months. And can't chew very easily as I'm now missing a chewing molar on the other side. So it's been extremely difficult to go low vitamin A. My main foods are full fat Greek yogurt for the calories and nutrition, bananas, ice cream, some cheese, pasta, and mashed potatoes. I'm also drinking some coffee lately. Wellllllll TMJ is still very very sore and I'm running out of ideas. It is worse at the end of my cycle. Progesterone flared it up to a level 9 when I took it for pregnancy prevention one day so I haven't taken that at all. Other than that I'm doing very well. But I think the Greek yogurt is not helping. What could I eat that is lower in vitamin A that isn't tough to chew? Ground beef is completely out of the equation unless it's Taco Bell type processed. Anything I make at home flares me up quite severely as it's using the chewing muscles too much.

Why not make mashed potatoes a staple? They are for me and don't need much chewing.

 

[Vinero]

How much vitamin A are you eatinv now, vs before.
I dont get it, isnt vitamin A essential for thyroid function? Is there an issue with supplemental vitamin A being toxic, or were you getting over 5000IU vitamin A daily?

Nope, vitamin A isn't required for thyroid function. In fact it lowers it. Vitamin A also increase aromatase, which results in decreased testosterone and increased estrogen. Retinol isn't considered a vitamin anymore, it's simply a plant poison. It doesn't matter if it comes from food or supplements, since the end result is the production of accutane (chemical peel) inside your body.
Check out the work of Grant Genereux and Dr Garret Smith if you want to know more.
START HERE...Summary, Grant's books, the "rules", the misconceptions, the falsehoods

 

[InChristAlone]

Why not make mashed potatoes a staple? They are for me and don't need much chewing.

I have tried eating quite a lot of potatoes, they are just so satiating! And then I feel like I still need dairy. Hard to get out of the mindset dairy covers my bases.

 

[BigChad]

Nope, vitamin A isn't required for thyroid function. In fact it lowers it. Vitamin A also increase aromatase, which results in decreased testosterone and increased estrogen. Retinol isn't considered a vitamin anymore, it's simply a plant poison. It doesn't matter if it comes from food or supplements, since the end result is the production of accutane (chemical peel) inside your body.
Check out the work of Grant Genereux and Dr Garret Smith if you want to know more.
START HERE...Summary, Grant's books, the "rules", the misconceptions, the falsehoods

This is confirmed? It goes against much of what ray said? He said limit it to 5000IU or less when hypo? And he advised eating carrots. Is beta carotene less harmful than retinyl palmitate/acetate

 

[Tarmander]

I have tried eating quite a lot of potatoes, they are just so satiating! And then I feel like I still need dairy. Hard to get out of the mindset dairy covers my bases.

You can basically live on potatoes alone...maybe not well but potatoes cover your bases too.

 

[BigChad]

@sugarbabe @Tarmander isnt this still being debated or its confirmed vitamin A should be completely avoided? What if you intake double supplemental vitamin d3 relative to A.
Also, non fat greek yogurt says it has 0% vitamin A. Does non fat greek yogurt have retinoic acid or some kind of hidden vitamin A?

People like haidut, hans, ray peat still advise vitamin A intakes right. Supposedly with no vitamin A you can get glaucoma? Please explain...

 

[gaze]

@sugarbabe @Tarmander isnt this still being debated or its confirmed vitamin A should be completely avoided? What if you intake double supplemental vitamin d3 relative to A.
Also, non fat greek yogurt says it has 0% vitamin A. Does non fat greek yogurt have retinoic acid or some kind of hidden vitamin A?

People like haidut, hans, ray peat still advise vitamin A intakes right. Supposedly with no vitamin A you can get glaucoma? Please explain...

nothings ever confirmed in nutrition. it’s a point of a view, which happens to disagree with Rays point of view. Everyone should do their own research and experiment on their own body to find their own point of view, rather then blindly follow others.

And for the yogurt, I think pasteurized non fat yogurt loses retinol binding protein, so it does have retinoic acid

 

[BigChad]

nothings ever confirmed in nutrition. it’s a point of a view, which happens to disagree with Rays point of view. Everyone should do their own research and experiment on their own body to find their own point of view, rather then blindly follow others.

And for the yogurt, I think pasteurized non fat yogurt loses retinol binding protein, so it does have retinoic acid

Im talking about costcos Kirkland brand organic non fat greek yogurt. Do you know if that has vitamin a, and how much it would have IU wise.
Does milk have vitamin A beyond the % listed on the label?

Btw do lutein and lycopene have the same effect as vitamin a or beta carotene.

 

[InChristAlone]

Yeah I think potatoes are very nutritious just hard to get enough of for me. Just had almost 2 cups of mashed with some butter and even with a huge bowl of greek yogurt with sugar, another of noodles, a banana and a cheese stick I'm still down by like 300 calories and very low protein.

If dairy is to be consumed I think the fat is protective.

 

[Tarmander]

Yeah I think potatoes are very nutritious just hard to get enough of for me. Just had almost 2 cups of mashed with some butter and even with a huge bowl of greek yogurt with sugar, another of noodles, a banana and a cheese stick I'm still down by like 300 calories and very low protein.

If dairy is to be consumed I think the fat is protective.

I consume about 2.5 pounds of potatoes per day. It was hard at first, and that is still just around 1000 calories, so I hear ya. I do not find them that filling actually.

 

[CLASH]

@CLASH,

This source documents 7 cases of liver damage caused by a total cumulative intake of only 20 000 000 IU, works out to about 55 000 IU/ day for a year, or 15 000 IU/day for 4 years. https://www.gastrojournal.org/article/0016-5085(91)90672-8/pdf

While most cases of liver damage indeed involve pre-formed Vitamin A, there is in most reported cases also a high intake of other caretenoids in the picture. Actually there is a case where a guy developed elevated liver enzymes by only consuming the equivalent of 2 large carrots per day. Carrot man: a case of excessive beta-carotene ingestion. - PubMed - NCBI

Another case study of liver damage where the vast majority of Vitamin A came from carotenoids.
Vitamin A toxicity secondary to excessive intake of yellow-green vegetables, liver and laver. - PubMed - NCBI

Which populations actually have a documented high consumption of Vitamin A? Can you point me to a study? If we take China as an example, it has one of the highest per-capita consumption of sweet potatoes in the world, yet the average estimated intake of Vitamin A is a paltry 1000 IU/day (Dietary vitamin a intake among Chinese adults: findings from CNTCS2015).

The first link is interesting in the cumulative effect, it makes me question the monthly consumption of liver. The caveat is in that study, people where using supplemental vit A to induce thier hypervotaminosis A, as far as i understood. I don think the researchers looked at the supplemental plus the food intake. I do appreciate the link tho.

The caretenoid links arent very strong evidence in my mind. In the first one that guy was eating 5-7lbs of carrots a week, his liver issues could be a function of a few things with that issue, including the fact that he was constipated. The doctors theorizes a vit A excess but didnt confirm it, atleast from what I read.

The second case study, it mentions the girl was eating liver and had a parasitic infection of the liver, plus she was eating massive quantities of high carotene foods like pumpkin.

My hesitations dont mean I think caretenoids are a good thing, rather I think that moderate intakes are unavoidable on a good diet and being too restrictive may be an issue.

As far as high vit a intake, i dont think looking at a study like the one you posted on chinese people is helpful considering the variation in diet over the country and the change in diet since the industrial revolution overall. If I was to look at the kitavan studies, or some of the other indigenous group studies like tokelau, considering thier diets, I would estimate thier caretenoid intake is high by this forum threads standards.

With all this said, I agree that high retinol intake seems to be an issue, especially in supplemental form and in concentrated forms like liver. Also, high caretenoid intake is an issue, although i dont think its the same as a high retinol intake. I myself avoid orange carrots for the most part because they turned me orange and made me feel wierd. What I dont think makes much sense is the amount of restriction going on around caretenoids here. I think it makes the diet extremely limited, on an already limited dietary template. Plus, I dont think peoples problems are being solved because they are avoiding vit a per say. I think the restriction in other dietary components are whats helpful. I think its a large leap to sit here and say “i stopped drinking milk and my eczema went away, must have been the vit a”. Milk has been known to produce allergies for many people including eczema; I highly doubt its from the vit A.... Furthermore, in the absence of ridiculous dietary strategies like WAPF, i think that most people arent overdosing on vit A in the modern world. Many people dont eat liver, most people dont even eat eggs now because of cholesterol and even then the vit a content in eggs is relatively low. If people are drinking milk, which many arent because of these diet crazes like vegetarianism and the introduction of almond milk, soy milk etc. they are often drinking low fat or skim milk and not in enough quantities to give them huge issues (most people put it in thier cereal and have a glass before bed). Also the low fat aspect impairs the absorption. So minus a few extreme groups, including peatarians, I dont think vit A intake is such a huge issue. Furthermore the sympoms that most people describe healing are symptoms that many heal going on restrictive anti-allergy diets, to say its the vit A is questionable, especially if this person didnt come from a peat, paleo, or WAPF dietary template (the extreme minority of people in the western world).

I agree that vit a can be an issue, i just question the amount of restriction going on and if its actually whats causing most peoples issues in this thread. I’d wager its not the direct cause. Many people have an issue with a peat diet, especially the 1 gallon of milk, granulate sugar and orange juice diet that gets popularized, i dont think its mainly the vit a.