Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[raypeatclips]

Genereux has certainly done a good thing with his well researched work on this,

I disagree with the idea that Genereux has well researched vitamin A. He has written something like 3 ebooks now about vitamin A, so some might consider him somewhat of an expert, yet he has admittedly done little research into one of vitamin A's main antagonists, vitamin D. A true researcher would be looking at every angle of the thing he is writing a book about, to leave no stone unturned to make sure his work is the most solid he can be. When someone questions his theory by talking about one of its MAIN antagonists, he has nothing in response other than saying "it has nothing to do with vitamin D" with the evidence to back it up being he used to drink milk.

After I asked franko about the vitamin D connection, and to try explain to me why the issue wasn't simply an imbalance of excess vitamin A in comparison to a deficiency of vitamin D, he left the forum.

I completely agree with you that there is not just 1 factor that decides if someone has good or bad health, it is far too simplistic to think that.

 

[Diokine]

@raypeatclips


Can you provide some information on how vitamin D antagonizes the toxic effects of vitamin A?

Thank you.

 

[inthedark]

I disagree with the idea that Genereux has well researched vitamin A. He has written something like 3 ebooks now about vitamin A, so some might consider him somewhat of an expert, yet he has admittedly done little research into one of vitamin A's main antagonists, vitamin D. A true researcher would be looking at every angle of the thing he is writing a book about, to leave no stone unturned to make sure his work is the most solid he can be. When someone questions his theory by talking about one of its MAIN antagonists, he has nothing in response other than saying "it has nothing to do with vitamin D" with the evidence to back it up being he used to drink milk.

After I asked franko about the vitamin D connection, and to try explain to me why the issue wasn't simply an imbalance of excess vitamin A in comparison to a deficiency of vitamin D, he left the forum.

I completely agree with you that there is not just 1 factor that decides if someone has good or bad health, it is far too simplistic to think that.

Fair, I agree that's a glaring oversight in his work, I would've loved to see that question answered.

 

[raypeatclips]

@raypeatclips


Can you provide some information on how vitamin D antagonizes the toxic effects of vitamin A?

Thank you.

Sure. Franko posted this to me a few pages back, and I think it perfectly shows my theory that it is an imbalance of vitamin A to vitamin D, which is the underlying problem.

"...considerable amounts of vitamin D relieves the toxic effects caused by jewfish liver oil. When the unitage of vitamin D exceeded that of vitamin A, the combination was far more toxic than the same amount of vitamin A alone. But vitamin D was of distinct benefit when its dosage was somewhat less than that of vitamin A of jewfish oil."

This agrees with haidut and Peat, who I believe have both said a ratio of approximately 5:1 A to D might be good. It also agrees with my theory that the whole vitamin A issue is about an imbalance with vitamin D (possibly other vitamins.)

The fact that vitamin D causes problems in units over vitamin A would make me want to increase my vitamin D levels above the amount of vitamin A i'm eating, rather than Genereux's idea of dropping A to zero. Nobody is suggesting to get more vitamin D than A either, so this point is irrelevant, if not complementary to my theory (Which isn't even my theory as Peat has said it numerous times.)

To think simply one vitamin is the cause of so much disease and destruction is not seeing the forest for the trees. Especially on a forum based around Peat, who champions the view of seeing the body as one unit, as a whole organism working together in balance. Simply saying "Vitamin A" is the cause of this, this and this, while not taking into account the effects of other vitamins that are its MAIN ANTAGONISTS is narrow minded.

 

[raypeatclips]

Fair, I agree that's a glaring oversight in his work, I would've loved to see that question answered.

Me too. I have asked it from post #18 of this thread, because I am genuinely interested in the answer, and yet to receive one I thought made sense. I'm not just going to forget about the question when I haven't got an answer and the topic is still in discussion.

 

[raypeatclips]

I now see Matt Stone has written an article on vitamin A. I have asked him about vitamin D too, like I asked franko and Grant, and am awaiting his reply.

 

[inthedark]

This is neither here nor there but I'm not sure how I feel about Matt Stone dragging his 180d soapbox out of storage every six months to a year to blog about some random thing. Especially when he seems to be more concerned with selling e-books for the last three years after he hit a wall with his strategy of advising everyone to just hit McDonald's every day.

 

[Tarmander]

Interesting thread and theory. Couple thoughts:

•As someone with an autoimmune and who took Accutane, all this is very interesting. However, I read something similar to Grant's theory the other day with studies, logic, and a rational reason for why this particular substance was causing all these problems. This substance even made you MORE susceptible to other toxins, explaining Autism, autoimmune, increased cancer, etc. Literally all Americans test positive for varying amounts of this substance in their blood too. It is everywhere...Roundup! Way more convincing than Vitamin A.

•Matt Stone has been habitually wrong. Him taking interest in your theory is not a good sign for its longevity.

•The most interesting thing about this thread is @franko 's recovery. That is such great news that he has reversed years of degeneration. I am curious about what his state of health can handle now, if it is robust or fragile.

•I am not sure why franko or Grant has not tried taking a 20k IU vitamin A supplement and documenting the effects. Eating food that has vitamin A in it and commenting that it makes you sick is...well if you have been doing the health experimenting thing for awhile you know how little that shows. You need to use the pure substance.

•How again does getting off vitamin A now make you more sensitive to it? At what point are your reserves depleted and you can come back to the land of cheese?

I would love for this theory to be correct, but it sounds like going off the elimination diet lands you back in hell...so what has been solved?

 

[dbh25]

+1 to the comments on a Vitamin A/D relationship.

Summarizing from the MS blog, there has been an increase in Vit. A consumption/exposure, from fortified foods, multi-vitamins (or supplementing Vit. A), sunscreen and acne cream.
If you do eat fortified foods, use these creams or get supplemental Vit. A, I can see why you'd want a test to confirm a high level. But you can say this about iron, zinc, etc. any nutrient. There is an optimal range to be in. How many people are high in Vitamin A from eating unfortified foods and don't supplement Vit. A?

This a direct quote-
"The consumption of foods rich in plant-sourced vitamin A (as carotenoids) went wild! Global tomato consumption more than doubled. Year-round fresh fruit and vegetable availability increased dramatically."
What? Vit. A toxicity from overeating tomatoes or fruit?
franko made several wild claims/associations, and ignored each time it was questioned.
And the all meat diet that has been mentioned, it eliminates many potential issues/food allergies.

 

[raypeatclips]

Interesting thread and theory. Couple thoughts:

•As someone with an autoimmune and who took Accutane, all this is very interesting. However, I read something similar to Grant's theory the other day with studies, logic, and a rational reason for why this particular substance was causing all these problems. This substance even made you MORE susceptible to other toxins, explaining Autism, autoimmune, increased cancer, etc. Literally all Americans test positive for varying amounts of this substance in their blood too. It is everywhere...Roundup! Way more convincing than Vitamin A.

•Matt Stone has been habitually wrong. Him taking interest in your theory is not a good sign for its longevity.

•The most interesting thing about this thread is @franko 's recovery. That is such great news that he has reversed years of degeneration. I am curious about what his state of health can handle now, if it is robust or fragile.

•I am not sure why franko or Grant has not tried taking a 20k IU vitamin A supplement and documenting the effects. Eating food that has vitamin A in it and commenting that it makes you sick is...well if you have been doing the health experimenting thing for awhile you know how little that shows. You need to use the pure substance.

•How again does getting off vitamin A now make you more sensitive to it? At what point are your reserves depleted and you can come back to the land of cheese?

I would love for this theory to be correct, but it sounds like going off the elimination diet lands you back in hell...so what has been solved?

Very good points. I have asked the "How again does getting off vitamin A now make you more sensitive to it?" question before, and don't remember getting an answer.


For anyone interested, you can see my discussion chain with Matt Stone here. To save you a click, there are no new developments compared to what has been said in this thread.

Vitamin A: Vitamin or Villain? - 180 Degree Health

 

[Tarmander]

Very good points. I have asked the "How again does getting off vitamin A now make you more sensitive to it?" question before, and don't remember getting an answer.


For anyone interested, you can see my discussion chain with Matt Stone here. To save you a click, there are no new developments compared to what has been said in this thread.

Vitamin A: Vitamin or Villain? - 180 Degree Health

Yeah really curious about that. Sounds like there is a lot of fitting the past around this theory to make sense of it where you could do some experiments rather easily to see how this theory pans out. I liked the other idea about breeding gerbils for several generations without vitamin A and seeing what happens.

 

[Diokine]

@raypeatclips

Thanks for the information. I'm looking more for the metabolic explanation of vitamin A vs vitamin D, e.g. cyclical adrenoceptor sensitivity and PPARγ activity, glucocorticoid/HPA maintenance, etc.,.

So if vitamins A&D are antagonistic to each other, could we reliably expect vitamin A to be beneficial in the case of vitamin D excess? Certainly...

In these cases it is apparent that an excess of either vitamin is detrimental to proper growth, and that an extreme excess is detrimental to life. Antagonizing the excess appears to partially ameliorate the negative effects. I agree that the ratio is important, but is it more logical to reduce the intake of a potentially toxic substance? Or to increase the intake of a different potentially toxic substance? The most healthy and least pathological specimens were the ones that received no supplementation.

 

[raypeatclips]

@raypeatclips

Thanks for the information. I'm looking more for the metabolic explanation of vitamin A vs vitamin D, e.g. cyclical adrenoceptor sensitivity and PPARγ activity, glucocorticoid/HPA maintenance, etc.,.

So if vitamins A&D are antagonistic to each other, could we reliably expect vitamin A to be beneficial in the case of vitamin D excess? Certainly...

View attachment 10397

In these cases it is apparent that an excess of either vitamin is detrimental to proper growth, and that an extreme excess is detrimental to life. Antagonizing the excess appears to partially ameliorate the negative effects. I agree that the ratio is important, but is it more logical to reduce the intake of a potentially toxic substance? Or to increase the intake of a different potentially toxic substance? The most healthy and least pathological specimens were the ones that received no supplementation.

Thanks for the reply and the study.

This is another of my issues with Grant and this theory:
"I agree that the ratio is important, but is it more logical to reduce the intake of a potentially toxic substance? Or to increase the intake of a different potentially toxic substance? "

Are you guys completely ignoring the benefits of having adequate vitamin D? I don't know why the Vitamin A is bad movement presents vitamin D as simply a vitamin A antagonist.

From Ray Peat’s email exchanges alone, he has said that adequate levels of vitamin D benefits: testosterone/cortisol balance, protective hormones pregnenolone and progesterone, using calcium, mineral metabolism, lower PTH, bone metabolism, immunity problems, improving T4-T3 conversion, lowering LH, etc.

I am not suggesting any supplementation at all. Not once have I told anyone on this thread to take vitamin D supplements. I think getting vitamin D from sunlight, or uvb bulbs and tanning beds, while eating a normal diet, with a normal amount of vitamin A, is a very sensible way to live.

 

[Waynish]

Anyone have a list of molecules that are most similar to retinol?

 

[Blossom]

Urushiol - Wikipedia
This molecule from poison ivy is mentioned in the appendix of the book Extinguishing the Fires of Hell.
@Waynish

 

[mayweatherking]

Vitamin A: Vitamin or Villain? - 180 Degree Health

The theory is that excess accumulation of Vitamin A in the body is the primary cause of body-wide inflammation. This inflammation is invoking an immune response, and the immune response itself is doing even more damage on top of it (via autoimmunity, basically).

The increase in vitamin A consumption, however, is much more compelling. Right in line with the dramatic rise in illness was a dramatic rise in vitamin A consumption.

• Right around 1980 the U.S. started pumping supplemental vitamin A into milk, breakfast cereal, infant formula, margarine, and other foods. Other nations followed suit.
• The use of vitamin A-loaded multivitamins absolutely skyrocketed (over 50% of U.S. citizens take a vitamin A-laden multivitamin daily)
• The skin cancer scare started, and everyone began lathering themselves with sunscreen–rich in vitamin A palmitate.
• Acne creams chock full of vitamin A (I used to use prescription Retin-A) were squirted on every pimpled face, later followed by the notorious vitamin A-based Accutane

The theory put forward by Grant Genereux is that vitamin A, a fat soluble vitamin, is stored away in the liver. The liver does NOT have unlimited storage capacity for vitamin A, so when the liver becomes saturated with it, it gets stored as retinoic acid (a nasty, inflammation-inducing substance used for chemotherapy and acid peels and the like) all over the body–where it becomes a trigger for inflammation and a belligerent response from the immune system.


I wonder how you know when you reach "saturation" or if this is even remotely accurate. I've noticed negative symptoms to vitamin A, but I always looked at it from a less than stellar thyroid perspective.

Anyway, I don't really take matt stone too seriously, but I like to read what he is up to, although this sounds a little out there, but what do I know

 

[raypeatclips]

There's already a Grant Genereux thread.

 

[Endew]

Everytime I took a vitamin A or Iron supplement I got sick

 

[charlie]

This post below if from Matt over on his site:

Matt says: "Yeah the asthma was weird. Have had an asthmatic reaction to pet dander for 20 years, but last summer I got some exposure, had the typical couple days of wheezing, and then it just never cleared up like it always did in the past. I didn’t want to do anything about it really, so I fell into the temptation of using some inhalers. Within weeks the asthma became extremely severe, and I was literally dependent on inhalers to survive.

That’s when I was like “**** it,” and started resorting to extreme measures to clear it up. And I have. First with fruit (although I couldn’t eat much of anything with that fruit without flaring up, so I had to quit that), and now a zero vitamin A diet with beef as the centerpiece. 30 days in and I’m 95% asthma free, off the inhalers completely, and doing it all at a dry climate at 7,000 feet of elevation (which always made my asthma worse in the past).

So it’s cool. I miss pizza though, lol.

And yeah, amen on being skeptical of supplements. I’ve been very skeptical of all supplements, and that may have been my saving grace if this vitamin A story proves to be at least partially true."

 

[raypeatclips]

This post below if from Matt over on his site:

Matt says: "Yeah the asthma was weird. Have had an asthmatic reaction to pet dander for 20 years, but last summer I got some exposure, had the typical couple days of wheezing, and then it just never cleared up like it always did in the past. I didn’t want to do anything about it really, so I fell into the temptation of using some inhalers. Within weeks the asthma became extremely severe, and I was literally dependent on inhalers to survive.

That’s when I was like “**** it,” and started resorting to extreme measures to clear it up. And I have. First with fruit (although I couldn’t eat much of anything with that fruit without flaring up, so I had to quit that), and now a zero vitamin A diet with beef as the centerpiece. 30 days in and I’m 95% asthma free, off the inhalers completely, and doing it all at a dry climate at 7,000 feet of elevation (which always made my asthma worse in the past).

So it’s cool. I miss pizza though, lol.

And yeah, amen on being skeptical of supplements. I’ve been very skeptical of all supplements, and that may have been my saving grace if this vitamin A story proves to be at least partially true."

Interesting post, and I don't mean to keep banging the same drum, but Peat has said asthma and allergies are part of a vitamin D deficiency. He told me once I raised my vitamin D levels I would probably notice I didn't need to take anti histamines anymore. I think lowering vitamin A is masking a vitamin D deficiency. Id be interested to know if Matt has had any vitamin D blood tests recently to shut me up!