Fish Oil/Omega-3

gretchen

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Nov 30, 2012
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As we all know, fish oil has become very popular since the 2000s. It's in the news constantly and people are encouraged if they don't take fish oil, to make sure they eat several servings of cold-water fish per week. I've read testimonials online of both people who have bad effects from taking fish oil and people who say all their symptoms come back if they stop taking it. Some insist it has made their hair, skin or nails healthy. Did you take fish oil or eat a lot of cold-water fish in the 2000s and if so, what were your results?
 

kettlebell

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Oct 14, 2012
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Hi Gretchen,

Yes I consumed large amounts of fish oil tablets. For a short time symptoms of inflammation decreased, but within months all symptoms were back again and worse + other "Metabolic issue" symptoms were appearing. I cannot say exactly what caused this as I was doing lots of "Healthy" things and adding new things all of the time although I know for certain it was adding to the issues as is clearly demonstrated by Dr Peat.

The biggest problem with fish oil is because it is supressive it does genuinely have short term anti inflammatory effects but at the expense of health but people don't know that so they keep taking it as the initial effect is noticeable.

In regards to the skin, hair improvements etc this is likely due to the short reprieve in inflammation systemically which allows some bodily functions to temporarily improve but as I said, this will only be temporary and at the expense of health.

You are trading short term "False" relief for long term systemic inflammation and increased risk of every disease linked to it.
 

charlie

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In one of Rays interviews he says it(fish oil) immediately suppresses the immune system and thats why inflammation goes down.
 

jyb

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Remind me, what is the mechanism by which the oil kills the immune system? Is it just because metabolism of most cells including immune ones is suppressed?
 

charlie

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In the latest KMUD interview he talks about this certain substance in omega 3, I could not understand the name of it, but he says it is super destructive.

My simple explanation jyb, is, it stops the energy process. The immune system needs a lot of energy, so, when energy production is low, the body shuts it down to self preservate. I know someone else can further expand on that.

Or better yet, this is what Ray Peat has to say about it, I would suggest reading the entire newsletter but I have pulled some quotes:

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/fishoil.shtml

Ray Peat said:
In declaring EPA and DHA to be safe, the FDA neglected to evaluate their antithyroid, immunosuppressive, lipid peroxidative (Song et al., 2000), light sensitizing, and antimitochondrial effects, their depression of glucose oxidation (Delarue et al., 2003), and their contribution to metastatic cancer (Klieveri, et al., 2000), lipofuscinosis and liver damage, among other problems.

Ray Peat said:
Despite the nutritional value of those vitamins, fish oils are generally much more immunosuppressive than the seed oils, and the early effects of fish oil on the "immune system" include the suppression of prostaglandin synthesis, because the more highly unsaturated long chain fats interfere with the conversion of linoleic acid into arachidonic acid and prostaglandins. The prostaglandins are so problematic that their suppression is helpful, whether the inhibition is caused by aspirin or vitamin E, or by fish oil.

Ray Peat said:
Some of the important antiinflammatory effects of fish oil result from the oxidized oils, rather than the unchanged oils (Sethi, 2002; Chaudhary, et al., 2004). These oils are so unstable that they begin to spontaneously oxidize even before they reach the bloodstream.

Ray Peat said:
When animals are fed fish oil and then exposed to bacteria, their immunosuppressed thymic (T) cells cause them to succumb to the infection more easily than animals fed coconut oil or a fat free diet. Natural killer cells, which eliminate cancer cells and virus infected cells, are decreased after eating fish oil, and T suppressor cells are often increased. More subtle interference with immunity is produced by the actions of PUFA on the "immune synapse," a contact between cells that permits the transmission of immunological information. The immunosuppressive effect of fish oil is recognized as a useful aid in preventing the rejection of transplanted organs, but some studies are showing that survival a year after transplantation isn't improved.

Ray Peat said:
Chan, et al., 1983, found that polyunsaturated fats caused brain swelling and increased blood vessel permeability. In 1988, Chan's group found that DHA and other polyunsaturated fatty acids added to cultured cells from the cerebral cortex produced free radicals and stimulated production of malondialdehyde and lactate, and inhibited the uptake of glutamic acid, which suggests that they would contribute to prolonged excitation of the nerves (Yu, et al., 1986). In brain slices, the polyunsaturated fatty acids caused the production of free radicals and swelling of the tissue, and the saturated fatty acids didn't (Chan and Fishman, 1980). The PUFA inhibited the respiration of mitochondria in brain cells (Hillered and Chan, 1988), and at a higher concentration, caused them to swell (Hillered and Chan, 1989), but saturated fatty acids didn't produce edema. Free radical activity was shown to cause the liberation of free fatty acids from the cellular structure (Chan, et al., 1982, 1984). The activation of lipases by free radicals and lipid peroxides, with the loss of potassium from the cells, suggests that excitation can become a self-stimulating process, leading to cellular destruction.
 

gretchen

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^^^ Yeah, the immunosuppressive & metabolic effects of omega-3 are just mind boggling. I personally didn't get colds and flus the first few "fish" years; my main symptom was the decline of my hormonal system-- ie early perimenopause symptoms, insomnia, etc. Later, I started having tons of colds and got wrinkles. Also, became tired and gained fat......... I couldn't eat anything without having a low blood sugar attack, so I gave up and started having pastries and wine.

Not sure why there aren't more negative omega-3 reports. I recently argued it on a skincare forum and many said they'd taken fish oil for years with good results. :?
 

RRT

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Jan 5, 2013
Messages
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I think immunosuppression from fish oil occurs via killing of thymocytes, increased oxidative stress, and thyroid suppression causing thymic shrinking.

Tumour Biol. 1988;9(5):225-32.
Modulation of cell-mediated immune response by steroids and free fatty acids in AIDS patients: a critical survey.
Nunez EA.

J Cell Physiol. 2010 Nov;225(3):829-36.
Role of calcium and ROS in cell death induced by polyunsaturated fatty acids in murine thymocytes.
Prasad A, Bloom MS, Carpenter DO.

Cell Tissue Res 1994 Sep;277(3):447-SS.
Involution of the rat thymus in experimentally induced hypothyroidism.
AbouRabia N, Kendall MD.

"In 1985, the lipid researcher Hugh Sinclair gave a pre-banquet speech on his seventy-fifth birthday before the Second International Congress on Essential Fatty Acids, Prostaglandins and Leukotrienes in London, in which he described the deleterious effects of one hundred days on an “Eskimo diet” of seal blubber and undeodorized mackerel oil. He went on the diet to measure his bleeding time because the weather during a recent trip with several colleagues to northwestern Greenland had curtailed him from measuring the bleeding times of real Eskimos. Despite a daily supplement of vitamin E, his blood and urine levels of malondialdehyde (MDA)—a product of the oxidative destruction of PUFA (see Figure 3d)—rose to fifty times the normal level. Although MDA causes birth defects, Sinclair was not worried about having “misshapen offspring” because his sperm had disappeared.31

Sinclair’s experience illustrates one of the unique dangers of all essential fatty acids, regardless of their class—their vulnerability to oxidative stress." -Chris Masterjohn, PhD

More:
Br J Nutr. 2003 Apr;89(4):523-31.
Influence of very low dietary intake of marine oil on some functional aspects of immune cells in healthy elderly people.
Bechoua S, Dubois M, Véricel E, Chapuy P, Lagarde M, Prigent AF.

Am J Clin Nutr. 2001 Mar;73(3):539-48.
Dietary supplementation with eicosapentaenoic acid, but not with other long-chain n-3 or n-6 polyunsaturated fatty acids, decreases natural killer cell activity in healthy subjects aged >55 y.
Thies F, Nebe-von-Caron G, Powell JR, Yaqoob P, Newsholme EA, Calder PC.

Clin Immunol Immunopathol. 1991 Nov;61(2 Pt 1):161-76.
Immunosuppressive effects of fish oil in normal human volunteers: correlation with the in vitro effects of eicosapentanoic acid on human lymphocytes.
Virella G, Fourspring K, Hyman B, Haskill-Stroud R, Long L, Virella I, La Via M, Gross AJ, Lopes-Virella M.

J Nutr. 2001 Jul;131(7):1918-27.
Dietary supplementation with gamma-linolenic acid or fish oil decreases T lymphocyte proliferation in healthy older humans.
Thies F, Nebe-von-Caron G, Powell JR, Yaqoob P, Newsholme EA, Calder PC.

Transplantation. 1989 Jul;48(1):98-102.
Enhancement of immunosuppression by substitution of fish oil for olive oil as a vehicle for cyclosporine.
Kelley VE, Kirkman RL, Bastos M, Barrett LV, Strom TB.
 

pepzorpdorp

Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2016
Messages
106
My fish oil contains 83 % RDA of Vitamin E. I can only consume like 20% each day. I know fish oil is PUFA, and I know it is not downright optimal, but the high amount of Vitamin E make me think it might not be all bad. What do you think?
 

lvysaur

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Joined
Mar 15, 2014
Messages
1,929
When I was taking krill oil, I developed spots on my hair line and scalp that I suspect were lipofuscin. They looked exactly like the liver spots that old people get.

They've faded with time. Omega 3s, not even once.
 

LeeLemonoil

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Joined
Sep 24, 2016
Messages
2,357
Eat Your Fish Oil and Digest it, Too (Unoxidized!) | DHA:EPA Ratio of 1:1 Minimizes Oxidation, Maximizes Uptake | Plus: Fishes that Come Close are Sardines, Rainbow Trout, ... - SuppVersity: Nutrition and Exercise Science for Everyone

No, I am not a fish oil fanboy, that's for sure. But how can you be if your chances to get already oxidized fish oil are 100% if you buy any of the US TOP-sellers (and assume that it's not different in Europe). Speaking of which: There's new research allowing us to add two new and potentially important criteria to the inofficial SuppVersity-"How to buy and use your fish oil" guide.

The corresponding research comes from an international team of researchers and was first published in 2017. It is thus not exactly revolutionarily new but in view of the fact that I haven't seen the results being addressed anywhere before still SuppVersity newsworthy (Dasilva 2017).
You can learn more about omega-3 & co. at the SuppVersity

Fish Oil Makes You Rancid?

POPs in Fish Oils are Toxic!

N3/N6 Ratio Doesn't Matter

MUFA & Fish Oil Don't Match

Fish Oil Doesn't Help Lose Weight

Rancid Fish Bad 4 Health
In the paper, the authors followed up on their own research showing that increasing the proportion of DHA in marine lipid supplements significantly reduces associated health benefits (in terms of lipidomic biomarkers of oxidative stress and inflammation) compared with balanced EPA:DHA supplementation (Dasilva 2015). In conjunction with evidence suggesting that these difference may be brought about during the digestive process, where the rate of oxidation and subsequently impaired uptake may be a function of the ratio of DHA:EPA.

The scientists starting hypothesis was thus that EPA and DHA molecules "might have differential resistance to oxidation during gastric digestion, and the oxidation level achieved could be inversely correlated with intestinal absorption and, hence, with the resultant health benefits"
 
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