Estrogen Is Absolutely Critical For Men

[Hairlosssucks]

went on a night out, next day my libido is back for the day. Ffs by what mechanism is alcohol returning my libido.

 

[Spartan300]

Yup, I've found that a few drinks recently has helped a bit too - maybe lowered cortisol?

 

[Lokzo]

went on a night out, next day my libido is back for the day. Ffs by what mechanism is alcohol returning my libido.

"My symptoms after a binge (only binging induces alcohol afterglow for me):

• excess libido, anywhere, anytime
  
  
• extreme interest in everything and anyone, including euphoria from the smallest things imaginable
  
  
• increased mental and physical endurance
  

I put it down to nmda/dopamine rebound/synaptic plasticity, serotonin depletion, endorphin depletion (hence SEEKING OUT REWARD AND STIMULUS).

Also dont forget the NAD/NADH redox, dhea->testosterone conversion rebound.

What I have noticed is, I seem to get the rebound ONLY if I induce complete loss of inhibition with enough alcohol, just getting tipsy or decent drunk I do not get the special hangover at all.

Also, the more of a good time Im having, the better the afterglow.

Butttttt, even if id binge drink alone about 15 beers, id get the horny hangover, but the effect seems stronger with plenty of social stimulus during the binge-fest.

edit forgot to add: Some people seem to also get near similar 'afterglows' from GHB ( never tried it and wouldnt recommend it!!!!! )

Considering alcohol works on GABA ( as does GHB, obviously also on the GHB receptor ) and NMDA, shouldnt a strong GABA agonist + NMDA agonist somewhat be able to mimic the synaptic plasticity effect of alcohol afterglow? Because there are also stories on the internet of people using DXM (dextromethorphan around bedtime) and the next day they wake have somewhat similar hangover description as the alcohol afterglow.

Just looked it up on wikipedia, DXM aparantly has a halflife of 2-4hours on average, this would be ideal to take before bed(assuming you get 8hours of sleep, only a minor amount be left in your body when you wake up in the morning), let the upregulation/synaptic plasticity occur while sleeping and wake up feeling a million bucks? not sure if its sustainable (high unlikely imo) but worth a shot atleast for the shortterm."

Some clues may lie here bro.

 

[Lokzo]

Yup, I've found that a few drinks recently has helped a bit too - maybe lowered cortisol?

See my comment above :)

 

[Hairlosssucks]

"My symptoms after a binge (only binging induces alcohol afterglow for me):

• excess libido, anywhere, anytime
  
  
• extreme interest in everything and anyone, including euphoria from the smallest things imaginable
  
  
• increased mental and physical endurance

I put it down to nmda/dopamine rebound/synaptic plasticity, serotonin depletion, endorphin depletion (hence SEEKING OUT REWARD AND STIMULUS).

Also dont forget the NAD/NADH redox, dhea->testosterone conversion rebound.

What I have noticed is, I seem to get the rebound ONLY if I induce complete loss of inhibition with enough alcohol, just getting tipsy or decent drunk I do not get the special hangover at all.

Also, the more of a good time Im having, the better the afterglow.

Butttttt, even if id binge drink alone about 15 beers, id get the horny hangover, but the effect seems stronger with plenty of social stimulus during the binge-fest.

edit forgot to add: Some people seem to also get near similar 'afterglows' from GHB ( never tried it and wouldnt recommend it!!!!! )

Considering alcohol works on GABA ( as does GHB, obviously also on the GHB receptor ) and NMDA, shouldnt a strong GABA agonist + NMDA agonist somewhat be able to mimic the synaptic plasticity effect of alcohol afterglow? Because there are also stories on the internet of people using DXM (dextromethorphan around bedtime) and the next day they wake have somewhat similar hangover description as the alcohol afterglow.

Just looked it up on wikipedia, DXM aparantly has a halflife of 2-4hours on average, this would be ideal to take before bed(assuming you get 8hours of sleep, only a minor amount be left in your body when you wake up in the morning), let the upregulation/synaptic plasticity occur while sleeping and wake up feeling a million bucks? not sure if its sustainable (high unlikely imo) but worth a shot atleast for the shortterm."

Some clues may lie here bro.

I would agree with you but my problems are a bit more than libido. I have watery semen and brain fog and muscle pain. I must have a hormonal balance, it’s just figuring out what.

 

[Goobz]

Do you have a studies or source for this claim? I'd be interested to review this evidence specifically, as it's something I would like to be aware of personally.

Hey, I remembered this and had another very quick look which turned these up:

Adverse Effects of Aromatase Inhibition on the Brain and Behavior in a Nonhuman Primate

Cognitive Effects of Aromatase and Possible Role in Memory Disorders

These two show the negative effects. I've seen another study claiming no cognitive decline vs placebo over a 6 month period. However that's not all that long, and I heavily suspect drug company bias here as these are high selling anti cancer drugs. But in any case, it appears an unresolved issue and quite complicated. But my general approach is that for any common and widespread enzyme, how can it be possible that simply blocking it can only do good things.

That's my theoretical approach. My personal experience is much more clear cut, since taking letrozole had a mountain of negative effects on me, particularly cognitively. However there were obviously many other factors at play, and others would react differently.

 

[Lokzo]

, since taking letrozole had a mountain of negative effects on me, particularly cognitively.

Hey man, thanks for your input.

Could you please elaborate on these negative effects you're referring to?

 

[Goobz]

Hey man, thanks for your input.

Could you please elaborate on these negative effects you're referring to?

Hey no worries.

Basically, sleep problems such as OSA despite being lean, inability to tolerate stress or think clearly under pressure, neurological symptoms, particularly a decline in verbal ability, saying wrong, similar sounding words, etc. I won't go into them all, but suffice to say they're severe enough symptoms that I've been referred to a neurologist, who I go to have check ups with. I don't believe for a second that the AI is the only cause of this, but it seems to have contributed.

Then there was the obvious bone pain as soon as i took letrozole, which despite greatly reducing the dose, lead to some minor joint problems along with some injuries. Also, a bunch of skin problems, thinning skin, wrinkles, little campbell de morgan spots appearing. I was about 29 at the time. Some of these things would have been mixed up with other causes, such as living in a home I didn't know was mouldy at the time, for many years. But certainly the AI seemed to bring these problems on (I've read they are particularly bad for people with mould illness), and certainly the bone and joint stuff happened straight away, and the skin stuff seemed to as well.

My personality seemed very different on the AI, which at first seemed really great. I think this was the upsurge in testosterone. But it wasn't till later on that I ran into great problems. I noticed a definite decline in my memory. Even now, looking back at the time when I was on the AI, my memory of those 6 odd months is very, very poor.

I even remember having "hot flashes" when I was taking the high dose at the start. So that was very clearly the AI and not anything else.

Tbh its quite a long list of problems, with various causes, and I think i've been over it before on this forum. I may have written out my story in greater detail elsewhere on this forum. I may search for it later and see if I missed anything.

Actually as I remember, for fairness, I think the worst effects came when I was given Nasonex, a nasal steroid spray. I had taken it before and never liked how it made me feel, but one day whilst using the spray I had what felt like gyno pain. I had some letrozole lying around and i tried taking a tiny dose. For a few days I had excruciating bone pain. I remember barely being able to stand up, whilst out at a party. I think that particular combo was the worst. I never took the letro again after that, and luckily stopped the steroid spray a while after.

So perhaps the combo was mould exposure + infections in nose + AI + steroid spray, which has lead to the majority of my problems.

I remember looking up AIs on the internet at that point and finding forums full of the poor souls who had breast cancer, who had to take much higher doses of an AI than I did. They described them as drugs of torture, and some of them just flatly gave up on them because they couldn't tolerate the side effects. And these women had cancer.

 

[Goobz]

Just to put a more positive side to things - it's only been about a week so it's early days, but higher dose boron supplementation seems to be helping me a lot with the bone and joint problems. I think it could be a very helpful supplement for people who have taken AIs. It increases estradiol and other sex steroids when theyre low, helps retain calcium in bones.

 

[Spartan300]

Further update from me too. I have tried to be consistent for a few weeks with boron supplementation at 3 - 6mg/day.

I have definitely been struggling to tolerate stress and that may have improved a little as I have managed to put some stuff behind me that had been causing problems for some time. Sleep and libido also a little improved. Waking temps maybe marginally improved.

Skin still dry, particularly forehead close to hairline. That only started after adopting Peaty diet principals/supps.

 

[vulture]

Just use Estrofem for 3-4 days. See how it messes you up.

Estrogen is toxic for man. It might be good for women because of it's feminization effects. It's absolute toxic for me.

I'm on Letrozole and Proviron for a long time. My estrogen levels are probably undetectable. I feel great.

What about libido?

 

[GreekDemiGod]

What type of drinks are best? I've read that beer is highly estrogenic. And that hard drinks like vodka, whisky are more friendly on Testosterone levels.
With wine somewhere in between, but wine is bad for those with digestive issues.

I have found a drink that does not give me hangover. Dry gin, drank a full bottle of it one night, with tonic. And water in between every glass.
Next day, I had no headache, no hangover. Granted, I wasn't even drunk.

 

[Vegancrossfit]

It’s been pointed out in surprisingly few of those discussions that Neal Rouzier is mixing up pmol/L and pg/mL in his pompous lecture to Neil Campbell. Hours of “100+ is good! 20-30 is bad, not enough!” When they’re referring to studies that don’t use the same unit system.

how embarrassing.

of course Campbell takes it all at face value because he’s the typical biased wannabe androgenic male just like excel male (or any forum such as EM) hormone abusers. And now they all jump in and make those absolute claims of E2 being the bees knees.

An interesting phenomenon

 

[JDreamer]

What type of drinks are best? I've read that beer is highly estrogenic. And that hard drinks like vodka, whisky are more friendly on Testosterone levels.
With wine somewhere in between, but wine is bad for those with digestive issues.

I have found a drink that does not give me hangover. Dry gin, drank a full bottle of it one night, with tonic. And water in between every glass.
Next day, I had no headache, no hangover. Granted, I wasn't even drunk.

Beer gets a bad rap. It less estrogenic than wine and by a wide margin. The estrogenic part of beer is in the hops btw.

 

[MyUsernameHere]

I was on letrozole 2.5 mg for about 2 weeks over Xmas Holidays in an attempt to reduce gyno. My bones and joints were in agony, I had NO libido, mood was ***t. Couldn't do my usual hike without feeling like my legs would break apart. High estrogen is bad in other ways, water retention, burning nipples, again no libido, moodiness...It's almost like there is a sweet spot for everything in the body. Most things are a U-shaped curve.

People like to take a hormone, vilify it and run with that, even in the face of so much real world evidence to the contrary. So no, I'm not a believer that estrogen needs to be nuked, it's there for a reason. If you have obvious high estrogen symptoms, it needs to be controlled, if not, probably best leave it alone. I certainly didn't feel like any kind of superhuman, even when I was still on the up-taper and it wasn't completely gone, just 'low'. And before you say letrozole inhibits multiple enzymes, same or similar things happen even on 'clean' aromatase inhibitors like androsterone and 11-keto DHT. Too much of a good thing, and all that.

Now, PROLACTIN, on the other hand... yeah, you can nuke that bastard as far as I care, I'll agree with you it probably serves no decent purpose in a male body. Bring on the Cabaser.

 

[Vegancrossfit]

Meh, nuking prolactin makes me cum too early. Naturally very sensitive down there. Probably another reason why some guys get Deca d*ck and I don’t, when they combine it with testosterone and prolactin goes through the roof. Personal sweet prolactin spot: upper single digits

 

[Aries]

Now, PROLACTIN, on the other hand... yeah, you can nuke that bastard as far as I care, I'll agree with you it probably serves no decent purpose in a male body. Bring on the Cabaser.

Prolactin[emia] - Hypo- Can Be As Problematic As Hyper-

Meh, nuking prolactin makes me cum too early. Naturally very sensitive down there. Probably another reason why some guys get Deca d*ck and I don’t, when they combine it with testosterone and prolactin goes through the roof. Personal sweet prolactin spot: upper single digits

Is it dopamine receptor activation itself or endogenous dopamine converting to noradrenaline/adrenaline? Did you nuke it by dopamine agonists?

 

[Brandin]

While i switched the video off pretty swiftly, driving estrogen too low in men can have detrimental results. I naturally have low estrogen (i cannot for the life of me.gain weight on my legs or arse. I barely have an arse). And when i do too many things that keep estrogen suppressed--a lot of saturated fat, cheese, milk, sugar, nicotine, beef, creatine etc--i get joint pain, loss of muscle mass, poor libido and erection, slight anxiety, low strength. If i have some kind of PUFA food, even if it is bacon or pork, these symptoms reduce. I train for climbing 4-5 times a week so i am very sensitive to noticing how i feel strength and energy wise. Im not pro PUFA at all, ive had first hand experience of its detrimental effects. However, too low estrogen relative to T doesnt seem like a good thing. One thing that helps me is green olives/olive oil. I think the MUFA raises my sgbt so it keeps things in check and from becoming too imbalanced. Maybe getting some kind of mild natural phytoestrogen is the key to balance? Anyone know of any?

I take high dose arimistame (simillar to exemestane). Joint pain first day then after a couple days literally lower than baseline. Infact, its pretty much gone.

 

[Brandin]

But this perspective is akin to when people say it's just a detox reaction. Masking, detoxing... or actually creating a problem or imbalance.

Also, even if it is masking something... surely it is better to feel good and have a decent libido than feel like crap?

no. The fact could be that u feel the pain u have better. After a while the paint even dissapears because of the hightened androgens and lowered estrogen. This might make the problem dissapear.

 

[Brandin]

There is no way I would do TRT with Exemestane alone.

The doses that are effective at raising my T are enough to kill my joints as @ShotTrue mentioned.

The only times I had to visit a chiro for my neck were after taking exemestane, and climbing stairs would cause a sharp pain in the knee cap.


I see the benefit for someone whose natural E2 is 40 and above, but mine is naturally <20.
And even then, that >40 guy could lower it down by fixing diet before jumping on an AI

The pain was for me only right in the beginning. Have less pain than before.