Estrogen Is Absolutely Critical For Men

[Goobz]

Transexuals experience all sorts of problems, both medical and emotional. The rates of suicide are far higher among people who are transgender- Transgender Adolescent Suicide Behavior. I don't think the medicine practiced on them is in any way safe, nor do I think they are a good group to point to justify any medical practice.

I agree, which is why I found it surprising that at least one study found cardiovascular benefit, despite the fact that transexuals have all the issues you mentioned (which are usually associated with cardiovascular risk).

A very interesting study I saw was a MtF transexual with severe sleep apnea who had it completely dissappear with transdermal estradiol. This makes plenty of sense to me, given estradiols benefical effects on heme oxygenase, and metabolites of E2 being inhibitors of hypoxia inducible factor.

True, but it's a rare disease that has affected these men their whole life. Since estrogen is a hormone that signals growth, a deficiency during childhood and adolescence could dramatically alter growth. While interesting cases, it doesn't really suggest that adult men with high or "normal" estrogen wouldn't benefit from some strategy to lower it, whether that be through diet, supplementation, or through pharmaceuticals.

I mention them because theyre an interesting case - high testosterone, no estrogen, and a host of problems. You make a good point that this could be due to altered development though.

This is the huge mental problem in this forum. Of course you should choose what makes you feel good and healthy. Real life > (fake) studies.

Instead of listen to your body. You apply what studies says. Even if you feel like a mess.

I mean WTF? If I feel a mess why should I do it? I would go for what makes me feel good.

Anyway. You can do whatever you want.

Sure, but I did listen to my body - it just took time before i noticed the negative effects. I found out much later, that all these effects are standard and well documented effects of AIs.

To think estrogen is "bad for men", there is far too much other evidence for me to ignore - AIs cause lowered cognition, neurological disorders, women who have a hysterectomy have more than double risk of Alzheimers, that this risk goes away when given estradiol (with no progesterone), Parkinsons patients being treated with E2, various forms of estrogen dissolving the Lewy Bodies in that disease, I could go on and on.

This isn't evidence I went and searched for for some abstract academic reason - I had to go on the hunt to try to solve my health problems, after developing them. Believe me I didn't need to listen very hard to my body to find them.

Breast cancer patients frequently stop AIs because they simply can't tolerate the horrible side effects. And these patients have cancer.

 

[tankasnowgod]

To think estrogen is "bad for men", there is far too much other evidence for me to ignore - AIs cause lowered cognition, neurological disorders,

Do you have a studies or source for this claim? I'd be interested to review this evidence specifically, as it's something I would like to be aware of personally.

 

[Goobz]

Do you have a studies or source for this claim? I'd be interested to review this evidence specifically, as it's something I would like to be aware of personally.

When I went to see an endocrinologist he looked up his drug handbook and mentioned that neurological problems was a top side effect of the AI I took - Letrozole.

As for cognition, when I last checked it over a year ago, whilst battling my brain problems more strongly, it was listed as a side effect in the Wikipedia article - "patients on AIs show evidence of lower cognition" and it listed a study. It doesn't seem to be there now.

There was a study showing there was no increased risk of dementia with patients taking AIs... but only as compared to patients taking Tamoxifen, a SERM, which I believe also have been shown to cause cognitive problems. So I don't find that surprising.

A quick search then pulled up a 2019 study which seems to have found no link to dementia, and that may be why the line in the wiki article was removed. But if it's comparing to SERMs again, it's not much use IMO.

This is an old study, but one that resonated with me - patients on AI have impaired verbal ability, and impaired word finding is a symptom I still battle with today.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7781142_Cognitive_Impairment_Aromatase_Inhibitors_and_Age

But Ill see if I can find more evidence later on. I'd be happy if the evidence wasn't as damning as i think it is, given my history, but I doubt it.

It could definitely be a patient by patient thing, perhaps dependent on your APOE genetic status, but I certainly seem to have experienced it myself.

I understand this is a pretty lame response to your valid request for evidence backing up what I was saying, so I'll try to find my original sources later.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I’m on my second or third week of exemestane. I was doing 3mg and now I’m doing 6mg a day. I find it so far seems fine. I am taking pregnenolone, progesterone and DHEA. And metergoline.

I think exemestane is the safest AI. I think Dr.Peat was speaking of it as the least bad. I think it’s safe in low doses.

I may be running into a bit of sore joints, not sure, but it seems fine so far. I regularly take 200mg of pregnenolone with zero issues. I just feel good most of the time. Also increasing T3 so it’s hard to know if I am a little sore, what it is. Sometimes T3 in higher doses can cause muscle aches, for a short bit.

But mostly good so far.

 

[Hairlosssucks]

When I went to see an endocrinologist he looked up his drug handbook and mentioned that neurological problems was a top side effect of the AI I took - Letrozole.

As for cognition, when I last checked it over a year ago, whilst battling my brain problems more strongly, it was listed as a side effect in the Wikipedia article - "patients on AIs show evidence of lower cognition" and it listed a study. It doesn't seem to be there now.

There was a study showing there was no increased risk of dementia with patients taking AIs... but only as compared to patients taking Tamoxifen, a SERM, which I believe also have been shown to cause cognitive problems. So I don't find that surprising.

A quick search then pulled up a 2019 study which seems to have found no link to dementia, and that may be why the line in the wiki article was removed. But if it's comparing to SERMs again, it's not much use IMO.

This is an old study, but one that resonated with me - patients on AI have impaired verbal ability, and impaired word finding is a symptom I still battle with today.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7781142_Cognitive_Impairment_Aromatase_Inhibitors_and_Age

But Ill see if I can find more evidence later on. I'd be happy if the evidence wasn't as damning as i think it is, given my history, but I doubt it.

It could definitely be a patient by patient thing, perhaps dependent on your APOE genetic status, but I certainly seem to have experienced it myself.

I understand this is a pretty lame response to your valid request for evidence backing up what I was saying, so I'll try to find my original sources later.

serms raise estrogen by raising test but you feel like you have low e due to them blocking the receptors? Is that how it works?

 

[Hairlosssucks]

Yup, my GP said 'we don't test that, it's a woman's hormone'.

I don't know what to think - any estrogen lowering substances I've tried worsen libido which suggests E2 could be low but with my T/DHT/DHEA-S levels I'd expect to be leaner & sleep better.....

How’s the libido going?. I’m trying to get more calories and do more weightlifting and improve sleep.

I might consider proviron, to try and fix libido.

 

[Hans]

Lately, I've been feeling pain in my joints during my lifting session. Wrists and elbow especially. I've always had fragile joints, so not sure.

Red light can help. I used to get inflammation in my joints all the time when I was drinking a lot and eating too little.
Now my joint feel very solid and I just eat a good diet and use a bit of gelatin.
I've also noticed that faulty movement patterns causes me joint pains. For example I started getting chronic knee pain and realized it's most likely from having flat feet (collapsed bridge). I then realized the flat feet made me walk feet out a lot and I had instability in my knee and hip joint. Anyway, I fixed that and the pain went away.

 

[Hans]

Can Low estrongen alter ability to build muscle?
Can one test whether he is low estrogen without a blood test? Maybe eat a high PUFA meal to provoke a spike in estrogen, and if it's followed by a rise in libido, then you know you are low E.

I saw a study that men that used T with and AI gained more muscle that men without the AI. I'm not saying that E is not needed, but high estrogen might not be needed at all. Blocking estrogen with an AI drops estrogen to low to moderate levels, not even deficient levels, so there will still be more than enough estrogen in the body if it's really needed for muscle growth even while using an AI.
I've also seen a study, animal model, that inflammation or satellite cell activation was not needed for hypertrophy, making the action/benefit of estrogen unnecessary.

PUFA consumption should not immediately trigger a spike in estrogen, it happens over time. PUFAs increase LH in the short term but causes testicular atrophy in the long term. Inflammation, stress and hypothyroid is what majorly drives up aromatase and estrogen levels.

 

[baccheion]

I saw a study that men that used T with and AI gained more muscle that men without the AI. I'm not saying that E is not needed, but high estrogen might not be needed at all. Blocking estrogen with an AI drops estrogen to low to moderate levels, not even deficient levels, so there will still be more than enough estrogen in the body if it's really needed for muscle growth even while using an AI.
I've also seen a study, animal model, that inflammation or satellite cell activation was not needed for hypertrophy, making the action/benefit of estrogen unnecessary.

PUFA consumption should not immediately trigger a spike in estrogen, it happens over time. PUFAs increase LH in the short term but causes testicular atrophy in the long term. Inflammation, stress and hypothyroid is what majorly drives up aromatase and estrogen levels.

How does it cause atrophy?

 

[Hans]

How does it cause atrophy?

Probably inflammation through COX, LOX and peroxidation, which leads to energy deficiency and nercosis.

 

[tankasnowgod]

I saw a study that men that used T with and AI gained more muscle that men without the AI. I'm not saying that E is not needed, but high estrogen might not be needed at all. Blocking estrogen with an AI drops estrogen to low to moderate levels, not even deficient levels, so there will still be more than enough estrogen in the body if it's really needed for muscle growth even while using an AI.
I've also seen a study, animal model, that inflammation or satellite cell activation was not needed for hypertrophy, making the action/benefit of estrogen unnecessary.

PUFA consumption should not immediately trigger a spike in estrogen, it happens over time. PUFAs increase LH in the short term but causes testicular atrophy in the long term. Inflammation, stress and hypothyroid is what majorly drives up aromatase and estrogen levels.

If you are referring to the initial study listed in this thread, they started off by suppressing many hormones with goserilin acetate. That lowers T, E, DHT and other hormones to almost zero. It also lowers Progesterone (maybe as dramatically as as the other 3 mentioned), and DHEA by about 20%. The men receiving T in the non-Letrozole groups had lower estrogen than baseline in all but the highest T supplemented group, and in that group, Estrogen was about the same as baseline, with T being about 200-300 ng/dl higher, so better T:E ratio in that group.

 

[tankasnowgod]

I’m on my second or third week of exemestane. I was doing 3mg and now I’m doing 6mg a day. I find it so far seems fine. I am taking pregnenolone, progesterone and DHEA. And metergoline.

I think exemestane is the safest AI. I think Dr.Peat was speaking of it as the least bad. I think it’s safe in low doses.

I may be running into a bit of sore joints, not sure, but it seems fine so far. I regularly take 200mg of pregnenolone with zero issues. I just feel good most of the time. Also increasing T3 so it’s hard to know if I am a little sore, what it is. Sometimes T3 in higher doses can cause muscle aches, for a short bit.

But mostly good so far.

I'm on the second week doing a very similar protocol, and I am getting similar results. I've had some transient joint soreness, but most of that has disappeared, and as I mentioned before, I don't know if it was that different than baseline. All the joints that have had some soreness were joints that have previous issues (like sites of surgery on my ankles, for example) Some tiredness, but that seems to be fading too. I am noticing muscles seem fuller and tighter, and mood also seems to be improving.

Overall, very good for me too. I'm planning on doing a blood panel early in January.

 

[Spartan300]

How’s the libido going?. I’m trying to get more calories and do more weightlifting and improve sleep.

I might consider proviron, to try and fix libido.

I've not tried proviron but androsterone at only around 1mg/day worsened my libido and I tried a few times. My dht was just under top of ref range when tested.

Latest for me is two things :
1. I've stopped supplementing B vits (B1, b2 and occasional b3 and Biotin) &
2. I've used 0.5mg cypro the last two nights

Libido is best for some time. Whilst I'm certain cortisol is a big problem for me, maybe this means my issues are also seratonin related?

 

[Hans]

If you are referring to the initial study listed in this thread, they started off by suppressing many hormones with goserilin acetate. That lowers T, E, DHT and other hormones to almost zero. It also lowers Progesterone (maybe as dramatically as as the other 3 mentioned), and DHEA by about 20%. The men receiving T in the non-Letrozole groups had lower estrogen than baseline in all but the highest T supplemented group, and in that group, Estrogen was about the same as baseline, with T being about 200-300 ng/dl higher, so better T:E ratio in that group.

No I was referring to this study: Error - Cookies Turned Off
But I made a mistake, there was a testosterone group, AI group and a placebo group, (not a testosterone + AI group) but only the AI group made serious lean mass gains.
My comment on AI lowering estrogen to only low levels was based on other studies that show that AIs don't crush estrogen but lower is to moderate or low levels, so very rarely do people really get estrogen-deficient while using an AI.

 

[TheBeard]

No I was referring to this study: Error - Cookies Turned Off
But I made a mistake, there was a testosterone group, AI group and a placebo group, (not a testosterone + AI group) but only the AI group made serious lean mass gains.
My comment on AI lowering estrogen to only low levels was based on other studies that show that AIs don't crush estrogen but lower is to moderate or low levels, so very rarely do people really get estrogen-deficient while using an AI.

Unfortunately it did for me.
Exemestane tanked my e2 and it doesn't creep back up even months after discontinuation

 

[tankasnowgod]

Unfortunately it did for me.
Exemestane tanked my e2 and it doesn't creep back up even months after discontinuation

Did you do any blood tests during that time?

 

[TheBeard]

Did you do any blood tests during that time?

Before and after is enough to prove my point

 

[bdawg]

I'm on the second week doing a very similar protocol, and I am getting similar results. I've had some transient joint soreness, but most of that has disappeared, and as I mentioned before, I don't know if it was that different than baseline. All the joints that have had some soreness were joints that have previous issues (like sites of surgery on my ankles, for example) Some tiredness, but that seems to be fading too. I am noticing muscles seem fuller and tighter, and mood also seems to be improving.

Overall, very good for me too. I'm planning on doing a blood panel early in January.

ive been on aromasin for nearly 3 months daily - rotated from full dose to 1/4 daily now

i had a weird sensation of high intraocular pressure or something - sore eyes when i first started but its completely gone now

im sure bloods are probably top of the panel but i agree with @TheBeard, go with how you feel with bloods as a secondary factor

have i made massive lean mass gains - no, has my libido skyrocketed? - no its about the same to slightly worse possibly, has my workout recovery improved noticeably - no, have i got full balls daily - yes no matter what i throw at it - the last factor is why i stay on it but im not really sure if its the right thing to do or not

 

[bdawg]

I saw a study that men that used T with and AI gained more muscle that men without the AI. I'm not saying that E is not needed, but high estrogen might not be needed at all. Blocking estrogen with an AI drops estrogen to low to moderate levels, not even deficient levels, so there will still be more than enough estrogen in the body if it's really needed for muscle growth even while using an AI.
I've also seen a study, animal model, that inflammation or satellite cell activation was not needed for hypertrophy, making the action/benefit of estrogen unnecessary.

PUFA consumption should not immediately trigger a spike in estrogen, it happens over time. PUFAs increase LH in the short term but causes testicular atrophy in the long term. Inflammation, stress and hypothyroid is what majorly drives up aromatase and estrogen levels.

yep and adipose, if you have a tire-like tummy - your body made estrogen is way more likely to kill you than any AI

but i reckon goobz is probably right about Letrozole and the other non steroidal AIs they seem to wreak havoc - havent seen this in studies in regards to exemestane

exe actually has weak estrogenic (ER a) effects in assays

Characterization of the weak estrogen receptor α agonistic activity of exemestane

 

[Tarmander]

I found an interesting connection that has probably been mentioned here elsewhere but pertains to this discussion.

Choline and Acetylcholine: Everything You Need to Know About These Brain Essentials

I haven't listened to the entire podcast, but basically when fed a diet deficient in choline, people get fatty liver problems except one demographic, which is younger women.

Estrogen turns on a certain gene in the liver to produce more choline, and protects the liver from the choline deficient diet.

I wonder if those who have problems with low estrogen have genetics/epigenetics that make them poor choline producers/utilizers.