Endotoxin And Fat Consumption

[lindsay]

@lindsay

Would Ox bile be a good sub for insufficient bile production?

Yes. I think so. I was recently out of the country and did not take my Ox Bile for a couple of days. The result was nausea and vomiting on day two. The Ox Bile really seems to aid digestion of both proteins and fats and keeps things moving along - this might be controversial, but it does help with constipation and digestion. However, I still toy with doses, as too much can cause stomach grumbling and too little is not as effective. I buy 500 mg capsules and divide them up because it's cheaper than the 125 mg capsules. Though I think a 125 mg capsule twice a day with meals would help and cause very little stomach distress. It's very individual though. Some meals require me to take two tablets (one before and one after). It's worth a try, either way.

 

[EIRE24]

Yes. I think so. I was recently out of the country and did not take my Ox Bile for a couple of days. The result was nausea and vomiting on day two. The Ox Bile really seems to aid digestion of both proteins and fats and keeps things moving along - this might be controversial, but it does help with constipation and digestion. However, I still toy with doses, as too much can cause stomach grumbling and too little is not as effective. I buy 500 mg capsules and divide them up because it's cheaper than the 125 mg capsules. Though I think a 125 mg capsule twice a day with meals would help and cause very little stomach distress. It's very individual though. Some meals require me to take two tablets (one before and one after). It's worth a try, either way.

Wow, I find this really interesting. Have you tried digestive enzymes and you find this better?

 

[lindsay]

Wow, I find this really interesting. Have you tried digestive enzymes and you find this better?

I've tried Betaine HCl in the past and noticed nothing from it really - maybe I should experiment with it again. I don't have a gallbladder though, so the Ox bile is a very important part of my daily routine.

 

[Agent207]

Still have been reading some stuff though. Most recently, and potentially relevant to this thread, is this stupidly long and detailed article about DNA methylation -- Aging, health and disease – view from the DNA Methylome | AGINGSCIENCES™ – Anti-Aging Firewalls™

I saw this article this morning, I use to check the site lately becasue theres a fish oil related article to be posted soon (next on the "inflammation series").

I wonder what herbal extracts are in that liposomal preparation he talks at the end of the article. I would bet for willow bark, ashwagandha, gingseng, and maybe rhodiola :)

 

[tyw]

I saw this article this morning, I use to check the site lately becasue theres a fish oil related article to be posted soon (next on the "inflammation series").

I wonder what herbal extracts are in that liposomal preparation he talks at the end of the article. I would bet for willow bark, ashwagandha, gingseng, and maybe rhodiola :)

I dunno. I don't like using things that are exclusively "anti-inflammatory".

I will agree with the case for Global Hypomethylation and Selective Hypermethylation of CpGs being an environment for aging and cancer.

However, I fundamentally disagree with the statement:

We discussed this further in Item 1 of Section C and specifically talked about how the inflammatory cytokine IL-6 “drives” age-related epigenetic hypermethylation, As I have often written, we know that chronic inflammation is at the heart of essentially all killer diseases related to aging.​

I have mentioned many times that I view "inflammation" (in the mainstream sense of inflammatory particles) as nothing but a signal for damage that has occurred.

The signal cannot be held accountable for the damage.
The signal CAN be held accountable for raising false alarms and diverting resources away from other critical tasks.

"Chronic Inflammation" is a sign of chronic damage. Anti-inflammatories aimed at reducing signalling capacity do not generally help with dealing with the damage.

NOTE: I only claim that these do not generally help, because there are clearly cases where the entire body is completely overridden by inflammatory signals, that it needs to be forced to calm down. However, this is often not the case for chronic illness, where some chronic stressor is fundamentally at play.​

I will wait and see what this herbal preparation ends up being.

.....

 

[SB4]

Would elevated faecal calprotectin indicate high endotoxin?

 

[Rivka]

None! I still do the 10 digestive enzymes a few days a week at night before sleep. If you look at that site I linked, it talks about how they clean up inflammation, cancer, virus, etc etc. I see it as a potential benefit and will stay on for a while (2-3 months) for "cleanse" of sorts. Good Stuff. No side effects except right in beginning I had a day or two of loose stools as it cleaned out my gut.

How many of each of these do you take to make up the 10?

 

[lollipop]

How many of each of these do you take to make up the 10?

Here is what I take:

Digest Gold™

10 on empty stomach.

Does that answer your question? I want to make sure I understood correctly

 

[Amazoniac]

People that move backwards;
Integral;

Most of the studies use intravenous administration of the toxins, large doses, and without previous accustomation; which is a different scenario than what happens in practice.

I'm not quoting this to suggest that endotoxins are harmless, far from it, but to stress the importance of finding stuff that actually have (more) practical relevance.
http://ar.iiarjournals.org/content/31/7/2431.full.pdf
"Oral administration of LPS demonstrates completely different results when compared to parenteral administration. Oketani et al. stated that oral administration of LPS is not harmful to animals (13). Schryvers et al. found no evidence of LPS toxicity with 20 μg/ml intake after 40 days in mice (14). Illyés et al. reported that repeated oral administration of high doses of Escherichia coli LPS had no demonstrable effect on small intestinal structure and cell proliferation in rats (15). We found that high doses of single oral administration of Pantoea agglomerans LPS (600 mg/kg) had no side-effects in rats (16). Moreover, oral administration of 300 mg/kg of this LPS, which was almost 30,000 times more than the recommended amount of LPS (10 μg/kg) in animals (human, chicken and fish), for 28 days showed no evidence of hepatotoxicity, nephrotoxicity, inflammation, or weight decrease in rats. These findings demonstrate that oral administrations of LPS are quite safe for animals.
Biological responses evoked because of oral administration of LPS have been reported. Murakami et al. reported that B-1 cells derived from the lamina propria in gut and peritoneal cavity were activated by oral administration of Salmonella LPS (100 μg/mouse) after 7 days in normal C57BL/6 mice (17). B-1 cells are thought to be a kind of phagocyte because of their ability to uptake apoptotic thymocytes and E. coli both in vitro and in vivo (18), and they possess differentiating potential similar to phagocytes (19)."

Reduced response to intravenous endotoxin injections following repeated oral administration of endotoxin in the pig. - PubMed - NCBI

It seems that the real issues are slow transit time and impaired intestinal barrier. In a lot of materials related to endotoxin they suggest that the critical and more vulnerable place for its absorption is right before the large intestine: the barrier is more delicate but the number of bacteria starts to be significant, especially when the transit time is diminished. When ingested orally, the situation might be different, once again the context..

 

[keith]

Hi @EIRE24 - I can tell you what I did for me and my husband to heal our guts after long suffering - trying everything else and it not working. It is not a Ray Peat recommendation so take it as you will.

High high doses on empty stomach of digestive enzymes (see photo - large bottle) - like 10 twice daily (one just before bed). My husband's gut was not as bad as mine. I only gave him 10 once a day at night.

AND used the combo (see photo) of all three with each meal.

The research behind it is on this site:

Enzyme Dosing Guidelines

Worked like a charm! Within one week of high dosing on empty stomach between food - my gut was 85 % better. Within a month totally healed. Why I bring this up is it also healed my husband's facial and scalp acne. I also put tea tree oil on the red bumps morning and night. The two together worked like a charm.

My memory serves me that Ray has suggested enzymes when all else failed. Don't quote me on that one.

Hi Lisa, I don't see, on that site, that it suggests 10 capsules once or twice per day on an empty stomach. Was that something you figured out from trial and error? Also, did you have some significant improvement from just taking the enzymes with meals? I'm interested in giving it a try for a variety of skins issues, acne has improved doing other things, but not resolved, and I have eczema, and lately seem to be developing some sort of psoriasis on my scalp

 

[EIRE24]

Hi Lisa, I don't see, on that site, that it suggests 10 capsules once or twice per day on an empty stomach. Was that something you figured out from trial and error? Also, did you have some significant improvement from just taking the enzymes with meals? I'm interested in giving it a try for a variety of skins issues, acne has improved doing other things, but not resolved, and I have eczema, and lately seem to be developing some sort of psoriasis on my scalp

I know this is purely regurgitating what others say on here but have you tried vitamin A and liver? Or even oysters for the zinc? I have done both and it hasn't helped my skin much at all but I know it does help everyone else on here with skin issues.

 

[keith]

I know this is purely regurgitating what others say on here but have you tried vitamin A and liver? Or even oysters for the zinc? I have done both and it hasn't helped my skin much at all but I know it does help everyone else on here with skin issues.

I have tried vitamin a and zinc, and they helped quite a bit for acne, but did not completely eliminate it. Lately though, I seem to have developed psoriasis on my scalp, with a lot of resulting dandruff, and think I may have overdone the vitamin a as I was taking very large amounts (about 280,000 iu daily). I've been off it (and zinc) for 5 days now with no improvement, but the vit a is fat soluble, so may take a while to move out of my system, if that really is the cause (I'm just guessing). My scalp has been really oily too. I've always had skin issues, though, very sensitive skin, eczema, etc, so would like to find the cause and cure.

 

[EIRE24]

I have tried vitamin a and zinc, and they helped quite a bit for acne, but did not completely eliminate it. Lately though, I seem to have developed psoriasis on my scalp, with a lot of resulting dandruff, and think I may have overdone the vitamin a as I was taking very large amounts (about 280,000 iu daily). I've been off it (and zinc) for 5 days now with no improvement, but the vit a is fat soluble, so may take a while to move out of my system, if that really is the cause (I'm just guessing). My scalp has been really oily too. I've always had skin issues, though, very sensitive skin, eczema, etc, so would like to find the cause and cure.

Ah, I understand. You say the vitamin A helped your acne a lot, was there a specific amount or dose where you saw it help? I never did more than 50'000 IU but it never helped me at all

 

[lollipop]

Hi Lisa, I don't see, on that site, that it suggests 10 capsules once or twice per day on an empty stomach. Was that something you figured out from trial and error? Also, did you have some significant improvement from just taking the enzymes with meals? I'm interested in giving it a try for a variety of skins issues, acne has improved doing other things, but not resolved, and I have eczema, and lately seem to be developing some sort of psoriasis on my scalp

Hi @keith!

A lot of research led me to that number and financial concerns of 2 people taking higher doses. If I was alone, I would take 10 on empty stomach two times a day. Research showed people noticing a difference from between 9-12 capsules a day. I will post below a few more links for you to explore. You can also research the massive research projects done by Wobenzyme in Europe.

I gathered from watching and knowing my husband's history that two things aggrevated his scalp:

*HIGH stress. We are teaching him to manage stress better and to relieve that internal/biochemical habit of living, working from driving stress mechanisms. It takes time to re-educate system. Lapodin used occasionally from Idealabs helps.

*Gut stress and endotoxin problems.

Both measures in combination have made a huge difference: a) retraining stress axis AND healing gut - enzymes were pretty fast and effective though we also combined with raw carrot - alone raw carrot did not provide fast enough relief. @scarlettsmum on another thread seemed to have great success with high high doses of activated charcoal. Did not work for us though tbt we never gave the high dose a go.

Here are those links:

SUPPLEMENTAL DIGESTIVE ENZYMES: GENERALITIES

Food Intolerance: A Result of Enzyme Insufficiency or Deficiency

SERRATIOPEPTIDASE: An agent of inflammation control and pain management

As a final note, with meals helps to digest foods and this keep gut stress from inflaming. As our guts have improved, we only need when eating out and cannot control food. Again, everyone is different so need to explore if you head down this path. I think in the beginning taking with each meal was helpful for us.

Hope this helps.

 

[keith]

Ah, I understand. You say the vitamin A helped your acne a lot, was there a specific amount or dose where you saw it help? I never did more than 50'000 IU but it never helped me at all

It seemed to work best at about 280,000 iu, but that was probably too much. I went right from 100,000 to 280,000 bases on a study showing weight loss with a dose of 1.4 mg per kg (if memory serves). It hadn't done much for acne at 100,000 iu, so I decided to try it at the "weight loss dose". Didn't work, but a side effect was acne improvement. Maybe a middle area would have been more effective.

 

[keith]

Hi @keith!

A lot of research led me to that number and financial concerns of 2 people taking higher doses. If I was alone, I would take 10 on empty stomach two times a day. Research showed people noticing a difference from between 9-12 capsules a day. I will post below a few more links for you to explore. You can also research the massive research projects done by Wobenzyme in Europe.

I gathered from watching and knowing my husband's history that two things aggrevated his scalp:

*HIGH stress. We are teaching him to manage stress better and to relieve that internal/biochemical habit of living, working from driving stress mechanisms. It takes time to re-educate system. Lapodin used occasionally from Idealabs helps.

*Gut stress and endotoxin problems.

Both measures in combination have made a huge difference: a) retraining stress axis AND healing gut - enzymes were pretty fast and effective though we also combined with raw carrot - alone raw carrot did not provide fast enough relief. @scarlettsmum on another thread seemed to have great success with high high doses of activated charcoal. Did not work for us though tbt we never gave the high dose a go.

Here are those links:

SUPPLEMENTAL DIGESTIVE ENZYMES: GENERALITIES

Food Intolerance: A Result of Enzyme Insufficiency or Deficiency

SERRATIOPEPTIDASE: An agent of inflammation control and pain management

As a final note, with meals helps to digest foods and this keep gut stress from inflaming. As our guts have improved, we only need when eating out and cannot control food. Again, everyone is different so need to explore if you head down this path. I think in the beginning taking with each meal was helpful for us.

Hope this helps.

Thanks @lisaferraro! I'll check those out. I've tried raw carrots and cooked mushrooms, and pretty high doses of charcoal, and appreciate the benefits of all, but they don't seem to help with skin issues. Lapodin seems fantastic for gut issues for me, but I don't have very significant gut issues at the moment...as far as I know. A lot of people seem to link skin issues with gut issues, which is why I was interested. Thanks!

 

[keith]

Oh, and stress is always an issue, that is a tougher one to fix.

 

[scarlettsmum]

Hi @keith!

A lot of research led me to that number and financial concerns of 2 people taking higher doses. If I was alone, I would take 10 on empty stomach two times a day. Research showed people noticing a difference from between 9-12 capsules a day. I will post below a few more links for you to explore. You can also research the massive research projects done by Wobenzyme in Europe.

I gathered from watching and knowing my husband's history that two things aggrevated his scalp:

*HIGH stress. We are teaching him to manage stress better and to relieve that internal/biochemical habit of living, working from driving stress mechanisms. It takes time to re-educate system. Lapodin used occasionally from Idealabs helps.

*Gut stress and endotoxin problems.

Both measures in combination have made a huge difference: a) retraining stress axis AND healing gut - enzymes were pretty fast and effective though we also combined with raw carrot - alone raw carrot did not provide fast enough relief. @scarlettsmum on another thread seemed to have great success with high high doses of activated charcoal. Did not work for us though tbt we never gave the high dose a go.

Here are those links:

SUPPLEMENTAL DIGESTIVE ENZYMES: GENERALITIES

Food Intolerance: A Result of Enzyme Insufficiency or Deficiency

SERRATIOPEPTIDASE: An agent of inflammation control and pain management

As a final note, with meals helps to digest foods and this keep gut stress from inflaming. As our guts have improved, we only need when eating out and cannot control food. Again, everyone is different so need to explore if you head down this path. I think in the beginning taking with each meal was helpful for us.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for tagging me in the post, Lisa. How interesting about enzymes role in managing endotoxin, food intolerances. I am very much aware of wobenzyme but didn't realise that you could use them for this purpose. It is advertised here for all sorts of things, such as speedy recovery after surgery to yeast infections to colds but nothing really explains how it works exactly so many people are very sceptical about it.To be honest I didn't really know what they were for. In one particular year I couldn't shake off the cold and was recommended a course of wobenzyme therapy. However I never completed it because the amounts of pills needed to be swallowed several times a day was overwhelming for me. If i had known more I would have stuck out with it. How did you come across this info?

 

[lollipop]

Thanks for tagging me in the post, Lisa. How interesting about enzymes role in managing endotoxin, food intolerances. I am very much aware of wobenzyme but didn't realise that you could use them for this purpose. It is advertised here for all sorts of things, such as speedy recovery after surgery to yeast infections to colds but nothing really explains how it works exactly so many people are very sceptical about it.To be honest I didn't really know what they were for. In one particular year I couldn't shake off the cold and was recommended a course of wobenzyme therapy. However I never completed it because the amounts of pills needed to be swallowed several times a day was overwhelming for me. If i had known more I would have stuck out with it. How did you come across this info?

Actually @scarlettsmum because of this website on enzymes and autism:

Enzymes & PDD/Autism

The woman who gathered all of the info had an autistic child. Really good stuff on this website.

 

[scarlettsmum]

Actually @scarlettsmum because of this website on enzymes and autism:

Enzymes & PDD/Autism

The woman who gathered all of the info had an autistic child. Really good stuff on this website.

thank you so much! I will definitely look into that.